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Did no one read this in the 8th edition rulebook?

Having a dedicated rule book for Space Marines almost immediately replaced with a dedicated rule book for Space Marines is a little upsetting.

I'm not actually upset, but I had hoped GW was using 8th to move away from the Codex system. Its just an outdated, clunky system and every additional book makes it more unwieldy. Unofficial apps can somewhat patch the problem, but as the game is officially supported, Codexes are more or less the most miserable system out there from both an army building and gameplay standpoint. I'm sad to see GW doubling down on a bad system.

Lol GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland included (and then there would be complaints that they didn't pay for airfare).

I don't agree with every decision they make, but come on. Complaining that a $20 stopgap book is getting replaced by actual rules? Everyone knew this was coming. The Indices were always only there until the actual books came out - that's why they were cheap and not comprehensive. And they'll still be useful for certain models that won't be included in the Codex.

But yeah, the internet is for whining, among other things.

I don't know why anyone is surprised by anything here. The writing was on the wall if you cared to look.

Me on the 15th of last month:

not only will you see Chapter Tactics and Legion Tactics again. Before long you're going to see Sept Tactics, Klan Taktiks, Dynasty Tactics, Forgeworld Tactics, etc. etc.

Me on the 4th of last month:

I am sure GW will continue to release models and their rules simultaneously, so yes. Primaris and Death Guard will be the first two out of the gate.

I am also quite certain we will see a very rapid Codex release schedule, akin to early 3rd edition (at least 1 a month) to bridge the inevitable power gap between Codex armies and Index armies ASAP.

Hey, look.

'Wait, did you say Death Guard?
We did. The Plague Legions of Nurgle are getting their own book to represent the fact that their way of war is substantially different from that of most Traitor Legions, as is the range of miniatures you can choose to use in your Death Guard army.'

*waits for the DG moan brigade to hijack the thread with doom saying about no havocs or terminators*

 LunarSol wrote:
Having a dedicated rule book for Space Marines almost immediately replaced with a dedicated rule book for Space Marines is a little upsetting.

I'm not actually upset, but I had hoped GW was using 8th to move away from the Codex system. Its just an outdated, clunky system and every additional book makes it more unwieldy. Unofficial apps can somewhat patch the problem, but as the game is officially supported, Codexes are more or less the most miserable system out there from both an army building and gameplay standpoint. I'm sad to see GW doubling down on a bad system.

That's a fair complaint. I don't think the Codex system is perfect, but it's fine - as long as they don't allow rule/power creep to appear in subsequent books. If the last codex released is similar in power level and structure to the first Space Marine one, then there's no problem.

This has not happened historically, but they've done a pretty good job with AoS (not all Battletomes are created equal, but they all are at least fairly close in power level other than some under/overpointed units), so I'm cautiously optimistic. Especially since the Indices are all pretty balanced other than some outliers and oversights (some of which got FAQed already), so I think it's looking pretty good overall.

Requizen wrote:
Lol GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland included (and then there would be complaints that they didn't pay for airfare).

I don't agree with every decision they make, but come on. Complaining that a $20 stopgap book is getting replaced by actual rules? Everyone knew this was coming. The Indices were always only there until the actual books came out - that's why they were cheap and not comprehensive. And they'll still be useful for certain models that won't be included in the Codex.

But yeah, the internet is for whining, among other things.

I think what baffles me the most is that they announced this at Adepticon in March and numerous times inbetween way before the index books went on pre-order. They didn't say that space marines would be first but that is the least surprising news ever.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.

This is how I feel. I really want to believe that GW has changed. I'm just worried that we'll be looking at a fragmented $1000+ full rule set for 8th, just like 7th.

Let's make a couple of very reasonable assumptions and err on the low side.

GW has a ton of factions on their site right now. I think it's reasonable to assume something like this for initial Codex factions. Let's call a Codex $40, even though we all know they're probably going to be $50 in many, if not all, cases.
1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Deathwatch
5. Grey Knights
6. Space Wolves
7. Imperial Guard
8. Imperial Agents (Misc Imperials... i.e., Ministorum, Custodes, Sister of Silence, Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, Assassins)
9. AdMech
10. Imperial Knights
11. Chaos Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons
13. Death Guard
14. Orks
15. Craftworld Eldar
16. Dark Eldar
17. Other Eldar (Harlequins/Ynnari)
18. Necrons
19. T'au Empire
20. Tyranids
21. Genestealer Cults
22. Sisters of Battle

Core Rules - $60
Index Books - 5x $25 = $125
Codexes - ~22x $40 = $880

At a quick ballpark figure, erring on the side of no new factions and a cheaper than expected codex, that's $1065. I'm also expecting campaign books and new factions/rules expansions to jack the price up even higher. I'm not even including the Forgeworld books, which contain rules for SOME of the 40k stuff. We've already been told the the FW indexes are incomplete and don't cover all existing 40k usable models. The Secutarii Titan Guard are an example. I know this because I bought them and now don't have rules to use them.

My favorite part...

"Are the rules are changing?
Yes, many units' rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the minatures and the background, sometimse to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army's new special rules in the codex itself."

FUGW

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
I am mad that I literally ordered my index 1 last night, and because the Space Marine Codex isn't available for pre-order yet, I just wasted $20. Only 2 days back in the game and GW let me down already.


EDIT: Spelling

You could just, you know, cancel the order, return it or part exchange it towards the codex when it's released? No one says you have to keep it forever and a day.

Kriswall wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.

This is how I feel. I really want to believe that GW has changed. I'm just worried that we'll be looking at a fragmented $1000+ full rule set for 8th, just like 7th.

Let's make a couple of very reasonable assumptions and err on the low side.

GW has a ton of factions on their site right now. I think it's reasonable to assume something like this for initial Codex factions. Let's call a Codex $40, even though we all know they're probably going to be $50 in many, if not all, cases.
1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Deathwatch
5. Grey Knights
6. Space Wolves
7. Imperial Guard
8. Imperial Agents (Misc Imperials... i.e., Ministorum, Custodes, Sister of Silence, Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, Assassins)
9. AdMech
10. Imperial Knights
11. Chaos Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons
13. Death Guard
14. Orks
15. Craftworld Eldar
16. Dark Eldar
17. Other Eldar (Harlequins/Ynnari)
18. Necrons
19. T'au Empire
20. Tyranids
21. Genestealer Cults
22. Sisters of Battle

Core Rules - $60
Index Books - 5x $25 = $125
Codexes - ~22x $40 = $880

At a quick ballpark figure, erring on the side of no new factions and a cheaper than expected codex, that's $1065. I'm also expecting campaign books and new factions/rules expansions to jack the price up even higher. I'm not even including the Forgeworld books, which contain rules for SOME of the 40k stuff. We've already been told the the FW indexes are incomplete and don't cover all existing 40k usable models. The Secutarii Titan Guard are an example. I know this because I bought them and now don't have rules to use them.

I really don't understand this complaint. Yes, if you want to buy every single piece of lore and memorabilia, it's going to cost something. But... you know that going into it. And if you need those books because you own every army, you've already probably spent 8x-10x that on models alone, so... is the cost of books really the thing to complain about here?

doktor_g wrote:My favorite part...

"Are the rules are changing?
Yes, many units' rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the minatures and the background, sometimse to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army's new special rules in the codex itself."

FUGW

If GW doesn't change rules:
"FUGW why wouldn't you fix things and update it to shake up the meta you're so at making games"

If GW changes rules:
"FUGW why would you change things everything of mine is perfect you just want more money you suck so hard"

It's good to see GW peppering the release schedule with something for all the players of the 40k universe. We start with Space Marines, and their cousins the Taller Space Marines. After that, we explore the depths of the Evil Space Marines, who sometimes break up into smaller Evil Space Marine Tribes. After that, we completely change focus to Wizard Space Marines, and then move on to Tough and Gross Evil Space Marines.

The breadth of and scope of the schedule is mind boggling.

Chikout wrote:
It astonishes me that anyone who knows anything at all about 40k did not see this coming. Codex space marines is always one of the first books in a new edition.
When they first previewed 40k in March they said that codexes which superceded the index books would be coming.
They only surprise is the speed at which they are coming. 10 by Christmas is impressive. With the 4 revealed it seems a safe bet that we will see admech and necrons too. Any bets on the other 4?

What is it... 25 years plus?

They haven't missed a beat. We go through it time and time again, and it is the same dance.

THOSE particular new books were the equivalent of Tide me overs. Everyone who has been in the game for five minutes knows how the sales model goes.

I for one, am satisfied with the consistency. Not so much with the prices.

"Hey GW, why'd you split out the points from unit entries"
"So we could make balance tweaks without having to update datasheets"

"Hey GW, Will Codices change rules?"
"yes, sometimes we'll tweak rules for balance reasons"

Soo...you may as well have just kept them all together then

Rynner wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?

I'm personally mad because I feel dubbed that I spent so much on indexes are going to basically be nothing more than tinder to keep me warm in the winter so soon after the launch.

and yet indexs where hailed when they were released as a good value and cheap. And as the codex post says there will always be units in the index that will never have a codex entry such as the imperial 30th anniversary marine. And let's just see how different your codex is from the index. Odds are they are mostly the same meaning you have a much cheaper although less detailed index of every army's units. And unless you play a specific faction you likely don't need to buy the 30 codecs that's will be out in the next 2-3 years worth of releases.

It is fun to see the hilarity of how if GW doesn't update things it is bad, but if GW does update things it is bad. Nothing will please everyone guys, if GW doesn't do exactly what you'd like it doesn't mean it's a terrible development. Accept it and move on, or dwell on it and keep ruining your own enjoyment.

Not upset at all. If they release Orks tomorrow, I will gladly buy that on top of the index.

I will flip hamburgers for a few hours for a balanced codex.

If there is codex creep.....I will not be so happy.

Requizen wrote:

Kriswall wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.

This is how I feel. I really want to believe that GW has changed. I'm just worried that we'll be looking at a fragmented $1000+ full rule set for 8th, just like 7th.

Let's make a couple of very reasonable assumptions and err on the low side.

GW has a ton of factions on their site right now. I think it's reasonable to assume something like this for initial Codex factions. Let's call a Codex $40, even though we all know they're probably going to be $50 in many, if not all, cases.
1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Deathwatch
5. Grey Knights
6. Space Wolves
7. Imperial Guard
8. Imperial Agents (Misc Imperials... i.e., Ministorum, Custodes, Sister of Silence, Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, Assassins)
9. AdMech
10. Imperial Knights
11. Chaos Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons
13. Death Guard
14. Orks
15. Craftworld Eldar
16. Dark Eldar
17. Other Eldar (Harlequins/Ynnari)
18. Necrons
19. T'au Empire
20. Tyranids
21. Genestealer Cults
22. Sisters of Battle

Core Rules - $60
Index Books - 5x $25 = $125
Codexes - ~22x $40 = $880

At a quick ballpark figure, erring on the side of no new factions and a cheaper than expected codex, that's $1065. I'm also expecting campaign books and new factions/rules expansions to jack the price up even higher. I'm not even including the Forgeworld books, which contain rules for SOME of the 40k stuff. We've already been told the the FW indexes are incomplete and don't cover all existing 40k usable models. The Secutarii Titan Guard are an example. I know this because I bought them and now don't have rules to use them.

I really don't understand this complaint. Yes, if you want to buy every single piece of lore and memorabilia, it's going to cost something. But... you know that going into it. And if you need those books because you own every army, you've already probably spent 8x-10x that on models alone, so... is the cost of books really the thing to complain about here?

What other table top miniatures game has such an expensive set of rules? The others in the top 5 aren't even remotely close. Star Wars X-Wing is... $0 for the rule set? Star Wars Armada is $30, assuming you want to play the Corelllian Conflict campaign. For regular play, it's $0. I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0? Seeing a trend here? Obviously, not every game has free rules, but over $1000 for a full set is pretty expensive.

My main complaint is that the rule set is super expensive and yet most of the rule books only have a handful of pages of actual rules. The rest is fluff or narrative missions. I don't want to pay $50 for a Codex that has only a handful of useful pages.

Charax wrote:
"Hey GW, why'd you split out the points from unit entries"
"So we could make balance tweaks without having to update datasheets"

"Hey GW, Will Codices change rules?"
"yes, sometimes we'll tweak rules for balance reasons"

Soo...you may as well have just kept them all together then

More dials to turn for balance is better. If they just need to change the cost of Plasma, they can. If they just need to change the reroll mechanic of a specific unit, they can. Neither was going to be perfect the first or second time, so having the ability to tweak either separately is better overall.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
It's good to see GW peppering the release schedule with something for all the players of the 40k universe. We start with Space Marines, and their cousins the Taller Space Marines. After that, we explore the depths of the Evil Space Marines, who sometimes break up into smaller Evil Space Marine Tribes. After that, we completely change focus to Wizard Space Marines, and then move on to Tough and Gross Evil Space Marines.

The breadth of and scope of the schedule is mind boggling.

The breadth and scope of the whininess of non Marine players is mind boggling. Let me tell you a secret no one else knows about GW - Space Marines and their spiky cousins are by far GWs best sellers. They will get stuff first, and more of it, until they are not the best sellers. Therefore, Codex Alien Cannon Fodder is not a priority. Expecting it to be different when it has never been so, is mind boggling.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0?

FWIW, cards are no longer included in models, but can be downloaded for free from the new card database. They're essentially more free than they used to be now.

Is people really complaining that if you want to buy EVERYTHING you have to spend a good ammount of money?

I'm glad that they are releasing codexs so fast.
And Indexes are 20€ books with rules for EVERY FACTION in the game. Many factions are gonna use the index for probably 8moths to 1 year.
Are you really mad that you pay 20€ for a book that allow you to play with 3-5 factions for 6months-1 year?

Yeah, I agree. Full free rules for everything and everybody would be ideal. Thats not the case. I gladly pay a reasonable amount of money for a good Codex without a glance if is a army that I play. I see tha tthe problem is how you see Codexs as "50$ for a book with only a dozen of pages of usefull content (aka rules)".
Then, obviously, Warhammer40k isn't for you. This game isn't only about the gameplay. And this is not a "gid good", is just the reality. Is the experience GW is selling you.

Requizen wrote:

doktor_g wrote:My favorite part...

"Are the rules are changing?
Yes, many units' rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the minatures and the background, sometimse to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army's new special rules in the codex itself."

FUGW

If GW doesn't change rules:
"FUGW why wouldn't you fix things and update it to shake up the meta you're so at making games"

If GW changes rules:
"FUGW why would you change things everything of mine is perfect you just want more money you suck so hard"

This is a fair criticism. My rules aren't perfect, but they are soooo much better. I love 40k and own GW stock. What I'm pissed about is that changing the points... fine... but changing rules when the new rules and indexes have been out for 30 days? Does that seem like they are working on a good product or working on a good profit. Either is fine as I'm stoked for my portfolio OR I'm stoked for my hobby. Right now.... I'm pissed about my hobby.

For you, maybe. Other factions will have to wait longer than 30 days before they get their codex.

 AduroT wrote:

Rynner wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?

I'm personally mad because I feel dubbed that I spent so much on indexes are going to basically be nothing more than tinder to keep me warm in the winter so soon after the launch.

It's going to take them over a year to get all of the Codexes out. Which armies did you not want to have rules for for a full year?

Well when AoS came out they gave the option to pay for the stop gap rules as a physical copy or grab them for free online. Would have been a better move to have done the same again.

I get it man.

The 25$ index prices bought me into the edition. Dealing with a year of everything stagnating while space marine variants get all the rules special powers and warlord traits and models and seeing the return of 50$ books would chase me right back out.

Rynner wrote:
It won't be Sisters.

This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.

They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.

Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.

They were...

Its not like every unit is getting a rules change. I expect a full 75% of them (at least) to have no changes at all.

 JimOnMars wrote:

If there is codex creep.....I will not be so happy.

I have bad news for you, then...it's going to happen. I don't say this to be cynical, but just by adding this amount of material, there's bound to be things that come out as more powerful. Especially considering how many codices we're likely to see.

 doktor_g wrote:

Requizen wrote:

doktor_g wrote:My favorite part...

"Are the rules are changing?
Yes, many units' rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the minatures and the background, sometimse to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army's new special rules in the codex itself."

FUGW

If GW doesn't change rules:
"FUGW why wouldn't you fix things and update it to shake up the meta you're so at making games"

If GW changes rules:
"FUGW why would you change things everything of mine is perfect you just want more money you suck so hard"

This is a fair criticism. My rules aren't perfect, but they are soooo much better. I love 40k and own GW stock. What I'm pissed about is that changing the points... fine... but changing rules when the new rules and indexes have been out for 30 days? Does that seem like they are working on a good product or working on a good profit. Either is fine as I'm stoked for my portfolio OR I'm stoked for my hobby. Right now.... I'm pissed about my hobby.

It's possible no units will change for the first few Codices, other than rewording for clarification. It's just a statement to clarify how it works in case they do change things.

Again looking at AoS, IIRC the Sylvaneth Battletome (the first one out post GHB) didn't change any profiles at all, just included new models and added the Allegiance Abilities. Stormcast, which is much more recent, only changed a couple Hero rules and left all non-Hero units the same.

I would not expect any sweeping changes to existing units in the SM or CSM Codices.