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2020/07/28 22:38:21
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
Yeah. We can tell. Perhaps, instead of making up a bunch of things about them, take it from people who've been interacting with them longer, that they aren't exactly a GW fan.
I only get an idea of who he is from this thread. and in this thread he is sitting there telling me to shut up and eat my primaris pie .
Which has nothing to do with them being pro-GW.
Maybe the fact that I don't know him is why it seems like he is pro-GW when I am trying to call out GW for doing shady things that will force me to re-buy the same stuff I have already bought of them but slightly bigger XD...
I am sure slayer normally super anti-GW.... but not today friends.
No, you're still wrong. Slayer can still be anti-GW and still tell you that you're making bad points.
Admit you were wrong, and move on.
They/them
2020/07/28 22:38:36
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
When you said "In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors."
I've already quoted this back to you, you know.
You keep leaving out the context. You asked me how you can play them uniquely, and i responded with how someone could. again stop being disingenuous.
There was no other context. You said what you said. Either stand by it, and expect me to call you out for gatekeeping, or amend your statement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How can copy and pasting EXACT DATASHEETS be incorrect. I am literally copy and pasting them directly off of wahkepedia lol ... its literally 56 uniqued datasheets... you cant get around that. its literally and factually what exists.
Yeah - so you're literally skipping over that most of those datasheets are literally just name swaps.
Do some ACTUAL research instead of just blindly copypasting.
A name swap isn't a unique datasheet, any more so than me suddenly changing all my datasheets to start with a silent Q, so now they're all TOTALLY UNIQUE GUYS!!!
28 unique datasheets. I've explained what they are.
And on top of that,,, no mater which way you shake a stick at it, it rivals the CSM codex outside of primaris lol .
"See, it's totally unique when I remove almost a third of it's units!!"
except your wrong about the 28 because you are literally ignoring certain rules interactions that only happen between some unique units and those "named swapped" other units... thats why I say 40+ and not 56... you do your research before over simplifying the codex you are claiming would be so much easier as a simple list of exceptions. For christ sake, I keep agreeing with your proposal, i don't know why you have such a problem... Its would be totally convoluted sure but w/e ... its a good solution why do you still insist on arguing with me when i am telling you that your idea is good.
Yeah. We can tell. Perhaps, instead of making up a bunch of things about them, take it from people who've been interacting with them longer, that they aren't exactly a GW fan.
I only get an idea of who he is from this thread. and in this thread he is sitting there telling me to shut up and eat my primaris pie .
Which has nothing to do with them being pro-GW.
Maybe the fact that I don't know him is why it seems like he is pro-GW when I am trying to call out GW for doing shady things that will force me to re-buy the same stuff I have already bought of them but slightly bigger XD...
I am sure slayer normally super anti-GW.... but not today friends.
No, you're still wrong. Slayer can still be anti-GW and still tell you that you're making bad points.
Admit you were wrong, and move on.
lol,,, he is literally advocating for them... thats what he is doing in his posts... i dont know what to tell you... I am not making things up I am just responding to what he has literally written...
Sorry you don't like that your friend is acting out of character, that's between you and him. I'll respond to what I am reading in this thread thank you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 22:40:48
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
I do enjoy that people who we have had full blown thread locked arguments with over GWs crap are now in here telling this guy we have no interest in GW.
Here. Let me show you a recent example of my opinion of GW.
Apple fox wrote: It would not surprise me if GW management did not know what they wanted with the app until last moments.
They probably did not share any details with the devs on the game itself until recently.
Which is bad planning and poor project management. Not that this is new or unexpected. But it's not an excuse. It's a fair criticism of a bad product put out by a company that should know better. It's not like this is their first piece of software.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
you guys are way to passionate about defending decisions by a company that doesnt care about anything but your money. You guys definitely are making assumptions about me, engaging in willful ignorance, strawman arugments, circular arguments, and are pretending that GW cant gatekeep the comunity as service via there models and rules lol... come on stop being ignorant guys, there is no way you guys are really this ignorant and stubborn in real life are you ?
like your telling me that if GW decides tomorrow to squat custodes that people who play custodes could just continue as they were, going to tournaments, playing games, enjoying themselves in the hobby the way they were before ? GW gets to gatekeep the comunity with their product... if you really dont understand that, you really dont understand your hobby and the relationship you have with the company that controls it. You arn't just buying a standalone product, you are literally buying a ticket into GWs gaming community... if you really dont understand that that is their business model... you really really dont understand this business.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 22:48:11
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/07/28 22:46:58
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
Type40 wrote: except your wrong about the 28 because you are literally ignoring certain rules interactions that only happen between some unique units and those "named swapped" other units...
You mean, the rules interactions that I was able to replicate in my one page fix?
Wow. Such unique. Very wow.
The Wolf Guard interaction that you're describing is a ONE WAY interaction - all it requires is for the existing generic units that translate into Wolf Guard getting a keyword. Not a unique rule - a KEYWORD. Then, all the Blood Claw derivative units can remain unique, and still function mechanically identically!
thats why I say 40+ and not 56... you do your research before over simplifying the codex you are claiming would be so much easier as a simple list of exceptions.
Show me how my exceptions (that can be fitted onto ONE PAGE) are incapable of recreating these simple rules?
Like, you're acting like I'm writing a bloody manual, instead of three very basic rules.
For christ sake, I keep agreeing with your proposal, i don't know why you have such a problem...
I don't care if you agree with it or not, you're still exaggerating! There are nowhere near 40+ unique units, let alone 56. There are 28 entirely mechanically unique units (that aren't just a simple nameswap, keyword, or single special rule away from being generic).
Grey Hunters and Blood Claws? They would require too much inelegance to re-write - but a "Great Company Champion", who is functionally identical to a Company Champion, plus a <Wolf Guard> keyword is goddamn trivial.
Its would be totally convoluted sure
It really wouldn't be.
but w/e ... its a good solution why do you still insist on arguing with me when i am telling you that your idea is good.
Because you're exaggerating constantly!
Stop exaggerating, and we'll get somewhere. But as long as you're claiming that there's these 40+ "totally unique and special units", when only 28 can be called that, I'm not going to let slide.
Type40 wrote: you guys are way to passionate about defending decisions by a company that were made force you to spend more money. You guys definitely are making assumptions about me, engaging in willful ignorance, strawman arugments, circular arguments, and are pretending that GW cant gatekeep the comunity as service via there models and rules lol... come on stop being ignorant guys, there is no way you guys are really this ignorant and stubborn in real life are you ?
like your telling me that if GW decides tomorrow to squat custodes that people who play custodes could just continue as they were, going to tournaments, playing games, enjoying themselves in the hobby the way they were before ? GW gets to gatekeep the comunity with their product... if you really dont understand that, you really dont understand your hobby and the relationship you have with the company that controls it.
No. I am just happy to tell you how wrong you are. You are not forced into anything. GW goons will not break down your door and steal your models or rob your wallet while dropping off new primaris like some kind of criminal capitalist santa claus.
I understand my relationship with GW. It's antagonistic. In every way that I can have my fun at their expense I do.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2020/07/28 22:48:47
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
Type40 wrote: lol,,, he is literally advocating for them... thats what he is doing in his posts... i dont know what to tell you... I am not making things up I am just responding to what he has literally written...
Sorry you don't like that your friend is acting out of character, that's between you and him. I'll respond to what I am reading in this thread thank you.
Friend? I've had more arguments with Slayer than I care to think - I make no mistake that I'm far more on the pro-GW side, and they're very much on the anti-GW side.
Seriously, read the room. Not everyone who disagrees with you is pro-GW, and it's silly to imagine otherwise.
Hello everyone,
It has been an interesting read. As a Dark Angels player I have seen many unique properties of my Angels changed. I first got into them when I had the opportunity to play them 3 ways depending on the character I included as my warlord.
Belial master of the Deathwing all my terminators are troop choices instead of elite. If I choose Sammael then all my Ravanwing bikers are troop choices. Take Azrael and then its a battleforged army. As for the Primaris releases I agree that GW is wanting everyone to switch to them from the old miniatures. Its like the auto industry and the electronics industry. Every year its a new model of the same F150 but minor cosmetic and internal changes. Their are 1000 chapters in the 40K universe, each have their own unique points as per the lore of the 40K Universe. What I have seen so far is that till we see the actual books we will not know what has been dropped, changed. Rules going from 4 pages to 26 pages. GW is a business, if a business is to continue they must change with the times. It was the same with Warhammer Fantasy they destroyed the whole world and came out with AOS. I have 10000pts of Empire. Unless some one on this forum is a playtester/reviewer and knows first hand how things are going to change and is willing to break their NDA then everything is just speculation/rumor. Please note I have not purchased the new rule book or chapter approved. To see how my Angels points have changed.
I personally love having all the common Marine units in 1 main book with a single set of points.
It never made sense to me that this didn't happen MUCH sooner.
Supplements are a thing and there's no reason even SW, BA, DA or DW can't fit all thier respective snow flakes in a Supplement.
Type40 wrote:GW gets to gatekeep the comunity with their product... if you really dont understand that, you really dont understand your hobby and the relationship you have with the company that controls it. You arn't just buying a standalone product, you are literally buying a ticket into GWs gaming community... if you really dont understand that that is their business model... you really really dont understand this business.
If you can't enjoy GW models without only GW official brand rules, then I truly feel sorry for you.
Branch out from GW. Find other games. Plenty of other systems are fine with GW models, and can be adapted fairly well. Hell, if GW did squat your army, play previous editions. Homebrew with a local group.
GW can't stop you playing with outdated models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mad_modeler wrote: Unless some one on this forum is a playtester/reviewer and knows first hand how things are going to change and is willing to break their NDA then everything is just speculation/rumor.
Exactly - very true. We can't say anything for certain, only that there's no guarantee that anyone's going to lose anything.
All we can really discuss is the simple act of SW/BA/DA not having their own unique book. We have no idea if their mechanics will change in any way as a result of this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 22:53:26
even if its on one page... seriously, think about what your proposing...
lets pretend its only 28 units... even though we know we need exceptions for others as well.
Tactical marines exceptions: chain swords, wolfgaurd pack leader, wolf standard, non heavy weapon.
ok, for just this one unit, there are 5 exceptions .... you really don't think having 2 - 5 exceptions for each of these units in the core book... you really dont think thats convoluted and confusing ? really ?
you think its seriously easier this way ? .... i know GW isn't good at writing rules sometimes, but come on. it can not be easier for a new player to have to check back and forth 2-5 exceptions for 28 units constantly then to just have a strait separate datasheet.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Type40 wrote: even if its on one page... seriously, think about what your proposing...
lets pretend its only 28 units... even though we know we need exceptions for others as well.
Tactical marines exceptions: chain swords, wolfgaurd pack leader, wolf standard, non heavy weapon.
ok, for just this one unit, there are 5 exceptions .... you really don't think having 2 - 5 exceptions for each of these units in the core book... you really dont think thats convoluted and confusing ? really ?
you think its seriously easier this way ? .... i know GW isn't good at writing rules sometimes, but come on. it can not be easier for a new player to have to check back and forth 2-5 exceptions for 28 units constantly then to just have a strait separate datasheet.
Just like your terrible illegal example, you have picked a bad snowflake unit example. Tacticals are going to be in the core book and the SW version will be in the supplement. The SW supplement will likely start with a list like 8th index did. "The Space Wolves faction can use these units" which will not include tacs and will include your SW version.
Thats not what you need to worry about. You need to worry about what happens when Tacs move to legends. Because when Tacs move to legends your snowflake version is going to go with them.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Type40 wrote: even if its on one page... seriously, think about what your proposing...
It does! One page to cover all of the "exceptions" (which is what we were talking about - things like the keyword changes, weapons charts, and unit substitutions), and then another 9 to cover the actual 27 unique datasheets.
That has consistently been my stance.
lets pretend its only 28 units... even though we know we need exceptions for others as well.
Then name them.
Tactical marines exceptions: chain swords, wolfgaurd pack leader, wolf standard, non heavy weapon.
ok, for just this one unit, there are 5 exceptions .... you really don't think having 2 - 5 exceptions for each of these units in the core book... you really dont think thats convoluted and confusing ? really ?
You really didn't read my proposal at all, did you??
GREY HUNTERS WERE ONE OF THE UNIQUE 27 UNITS. I explicitly mentioned that there would be a rule saying that Tacticals couldn't be taken in a SW army, and that Grey Hunters would have their own datasheets, because of how many exceptions there were!
Read my arguments before embarrassing yourself like this.
you think its seriously easier this way ?
No, because that's not my proposal at all.
.... i know GW isn't good at writing rules sometimes, but come on. it can not be easier for a new player to have to check back and forth 2-5 exceptions for 28 units constantly then to just have a strait separate datasheet.
None of my proposals needed 2-5 exceptions though. Goddamn, read what my proposal was, and get back to me when you've done that. It sounds like you're arguing against something I've never said.
(Hint - the only exceptions I had to make were modifying some of the weapon tables, giving all Chaplains a single rule, adding a single keyword to a half dozen units, making a list of banned units, and then the 27 unique datasheets as planned - nothing more, nothing less)
They/them
2020/07/28 23:02:15
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
Spamming one unit does not a unique army make. Get over it.
Show me where I said that. In fact, if you can show me where I said ANYTHING you've accused me of saying in the last few posts and I'll paypal you $500 right now. You can't because you're deliberately misrepresenting what I've said.
No. YOU are being willfully ignorant. Again, the writing is on the wall for all old marine units. No old marine unit translates 1 for 1 to primaris. Wargear options are going to change. Special single models can be broken off into character units. And Primaris versions of all the units (or their close enough aproxamations) are going to exist eventually.
Oh no. He's absolutely right. In terms of Slayer's responses to my posts, Slayer is being 100% ignorant.
I'm a bit confused on the current argument, is there an issue with Wulfen and TWC?
No. Slayer-Fan said:
Yet Space Wolves don't play different to Space Marines even with all the "unqiue" factors. Thanks for playing!
I pointed out how silly that is considering things like TWC and Wulfen. He then accused me of gate-keeping and said:
That's some gatekeeping you're doing there. It isn't a real Space Wolves force unless you're going ham with Wulfen and Thunderwolves.
So what happens when someone doesn't take those two units? Seems a lot like there just Marines! Almost as though each Chapter only needs 4 or so unique units and the rest can be consolidated! Big think time I know.
So that post contradicts his previous one stating that even WITH unique units they are essentially the same. I then pointed out that even the more "normal" SW units don't function at all like regular units so to say "they are just like everyone else" really isn't fair.
The funny thing is, I'm essentially pro-rolling everyone into one book as long as the snowflake chapters still get their supplements, but his Space Wolf argument is clearly based on either not knowing a thing about them, or, as has been the case lately, him just straight up lying about things so that they fit his narrative. I don't normally wade into things like that, but he's reached a truly special level of stupid with this one.
It's kind of a bummer rule #1 doesn't apply to deliberately and consistently misrepresenting people's words. Meh. Off to the "ignore" pile he goes. First time I've ever done that, but he's so far off the deep end lately ...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 23:04:31
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2020/07/28 23:12:18
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
Alas, it appears time to scuttle ye ol' thread, 'tis long past its sailing days...
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
