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Heat lances have still their base cost, they weren't changed by this FAQ.
Don't they reprint the cost of other stuff that doesn't change it cost either or are people here wrong?
For an initial FAQ there's nothing very surprising here. Obviously the book needs more tweaks and fixes but that isn't what these initial FAQ's are for; the bigger changes come in the big FAQ's.
But we are past the time for spring big FAQ, this means the next big FAQ would be the one that comes out at the end of the year. It is as if GW wanted people to impulse buy stuff first, and then deal with actual rules and game impacting changes after the big buyer wave passed.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
LOL @ GW somehow, some way managing to do an even more embarrassing FAQ release than anyone thought possible, despite how rock-bottom our expectations already are. It's like they're deliberately not trying.
Drukhari up to a ~74% win rate in the latest tournament data, BTW. Something the game has seen only once before in its history, and it was a very specific list for a very short time (the Callidus list). The numbers on Drukhari now are worse than IH, they're worse than Ynnari, and they're worse than the Castellan.
yukishiro1 wrote: Drukhari up to a ~74% win rate in the latest tournament data, BTW. Something the game has seen only once before in its history, and it was a very specific list for a very short time (the Callidus list). The numbers on Drukhari now are worse than IH, they're worse than Ynnari, and they're worse than the Castellan.
Where are you seeing this? Not disputing I just want to go poke around. We haven't had a weekend since the last set so they must be RTTs?
(DE win rate discussion starts around 1 hour 7 minutes in).
I guess I misspoke, though, pre-first-nerf IH was 78%, so it's happened twice before in the history of the game, and one of them is the most notorious disaster in recent 40k balance history. It's significantly worse than LVOIH, than Ynnari, or than the Castellan, all of which were high 60s. Pre-nerf IH is really the only other time we've seen a whole faction putting up these sorts of numbers in the game's history, rather than one broken gimmick list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 16:59:45
Heat lances have still their base cost, they weren't changed by this FAQ.
Don't they reprint the cost of other stuff that doesn't change it cost either or are people here wrong?
For an initial FAQ there's nothing very surprising here. Obviously the book needs more tweaks and fixes but that isn't what these initial FAQ's are for; the bigger changes come in the big FAQ's.
But we are past the time for spring big FAQ, this means the next big FAQ would be the one that comes out at the end of the year. It is as if GW wanted people to impulse buy stuff first, and then deal with actual rules and game impacting changes after the big buyer wave passed.
they may have changed blasters from 15 to 10. I recall on some unit blasters were weirdly 5pts more (despite being very similar if not usually worse gun to a heat lance) and maybe they changed them to be equivalent again?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
That is one of the shittiest comments I've seen on here. BA can win games. DE can lose them. but I won't go to insult your friends to make that point.
I'm also thinking 18 accelerator shots from BS3 kills a raider in a turn. havent fully mathed it, and it might not. feels like it would be fine though. We'll see.
No. Just no. He is not 'insulting your friends'. One of the 'shittiest comments I've read on here'?.. Come on, that's a tremendously ungenerous reading of what's being said.
He's stating that BA have an incredibly tough matchup vs DE - and he's right.
An elite Melee army, with fair dependence on characters is as near as possible to being a Drukhari players favourite food right now:
- They are as good as you in the melee, but trade better, and will usually have more bodies on the table.
- They have multiple ways to trivially delete troublesome characters.
- They have multiple ways to make you fight last, and are more mobile, so will almost always be in a position to dictate the charge.
And so on.
The above is a digression to prove the point, but it's clear to me no offense was intended at all.
He apologized for that, so ok. It very much read to me (and it's probably colored by the consistent rancor on this forum) like it was. he said it wasn't. no big deal. we're good.
How many games do you have of BA vs Drukhari? I don't have a ton, and I'm sure there's room for optimization, but I have 5 right now, and were almost 50/50, with him picking up 3 of them. I'm not saying its easy, I'm not saying that it's just a walk in the park, or that there aren't times I don't feel disadvantaged in them, but its a game, and if you choose your secondaries right, bring enough firepower to down a raider or two early, use transhuman only once or twice on very important targets, and refusal to die the same way, and you can very much give them a game.
But, maybe that's just the perspective I've picked up by not blaming everyone/everything else for my losses, and learning to do what I can. I'm not saying you harbor this perspective, but I've seen a lot more of "everything new is OP" more than I have "let's play the game and learn something"
Anecdotes don't refute mass data. What you and your friend do in your games have no real bearing the power of the faction as measured by tournament performance.
DE are winning in tournament games at a rate unprecedented in 40k history except for the worst balance disaster the game has ever seen. That's not something that can be refuted by "L2P and stop whining, as evidenced by my games with my friend."
yukishiro1 wrote: Anecdotes don't refute mass data. What you and your friend do in your games have no real bearing the power of the faction as measured by tournament performance.
DE are winning in tournament games at a rate unprecedented in 40k history except for the worst balance disaster the game has ever seen. That's not something that can be refuted by "L2P and stop whining, as evidenced by my games with my friend."
Also fair, but why aren't they taking more top wins?
yukishiro1 wrote: Anecdotes don't refute mass data. What you and your friend do in your games have no real bearing the power of the faction as measured by tournament performance.
DE are winning in tournament games at a rate unprecedented in 40k history except for the worst balance disaster the game has ever seen. That's not something that can be refuted by "L2P and stop whining, as evidenced by my games with my friend."
I can't speak to everyone else's experiences. I can only speak to my own. As a BA player, I am far more concerned about the DG matchup than I am the DE matchup so far. That can change. Maybe they are as broken as so many here seem to feel they are, but I would far rather use my anecdotal "git gud scrub" approach if it means that the faction isn't burned in a dumpster fire because people who likely haven't played against them at all, or once, lost and got mad and went to the internet to cry about it.
Again, I proffer, play the game and learn something from the games. Do that. Over and Over. Take your pride out of the game and people may learn that there is a lot more they can do to win a game than just complaining about bad dice and the opponent's codex. ("your" in this context is used as a generic euphemism for the average opponent, not "you" specifically. I have no idea if you fit into the above statement or not).
I'm also willing to bet that the super high win rate will likely normalize over time. I am sure there is a learning curve. We went through this every time there was a shake-up in WMH. There was always a huge boost of data from a recent tournament where the newest hot thing had a massive win rate, and it would be pushed down over time as people learned to adapt. this happened almost all of the time when something new came out.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 18:37:42
yukishiro1 wrote: Anecdotes don't refute mass data. What you and your friend do in your games have no real bearing the power of the faction as measured by tournament performance.
DE are winning in tournament games at a rate unprecedented in 40k history except for the worst balance disaster the game has ever seen. That's not something that can be refuted by "L2P and stop whining, as evidenced by my games with my friend."
I can't speak to everyone else's experiences. I can only speak to my own. As a BA player, I am far more concerned about the DG matchup than I am the DE matchup so far. That can change. Maybe they are as broken as so many here seem to feel they are, but I would far rather use my anecdotal "git gud scrub" approach if it means that the faction isn't burned in a dumpster fire because people who likely haven't played against them at all, or once, lost and got mad and went to the internet to cry about it.
Again, I proffer, play the game and learn something from the games. Do that. Over and Over. Take your pride out of the game and people may learn that there is a lot more they can do to win a game than just complaining about bad dice and the opponent's codex. ("your" in this context is used as a generic euphemism for the average opponent, not "you" specifically. I have no idea if you fit into the above statement or not).
I'm also willing to bet that the super high win rate will likely normalize over time. I am sure there is a learning curve. We went through this every time there was a shake-up in WMH. There was always a huge boost of data from a recent tournament where the newest hot thing had a massive win rate, and it would be pushed down over time as people learned to adapt. this happened almost all of the time when something new came out.
Again, this isn't about you and your experience playing your friend. Your experience playing your friend does not matter. I'm sorry if you find that harsh, but it's the truth. Balance decisions are based upon aggregate data, not upon someone playing their friend in their basement.
This is about tournament performance. You are essentially telling the entire 40k competitive community that they need to stop whining and L2P because you play with your friend and he doesn't dominate you.
Only once before in the history of the game has a faction had this type of win rate, and it was so bad it is literally the by-word for embarrassing balance failure. Literally never in the history of the game have we had a faction with a win rate anywhere near this that ended up normalizing over time. I repeat: never in the history of the game. Every single faction that had win rates anywhere near this ended up getting nerfed hard because it was way out of whack. IH - the only other example of win rates this high - had to be nerfed hard TWICE, because the first nerf wasn't hard enough. Castellan? Nerfed hard. Ynnari? Nerfed hard. And those were only ever in the mid to high 60s, not 74% like we're seeing with DE.
74% win rates don't normalize over time. A win rate of 60% may fall to something acceptable as people figure it out; a win rate of 75% does not. It would be unprecedented in the history of the game if it did. If you are banking on DE being balanced and the win rate falling to normal over time, you are betting that something that has never before happened ever is happening now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 19:11:20
Amishprn86 wrote: Why is that DE's problem? What are you going to say when IG 12 tank meta is strong? To not have Anti-tank b.c then Nids, Orks, and sisters are now counter meta?
He will say something else provocative, because he's not in the business of playing the game, just lobbing rhetorical hand grenades. Engage at your own peril.
I think for me personally, I'm going to start with:
-Book of Rust, throw it out, use other Wych Cults
-Dark Tech, throw it out, use other Covens
-+5pts to body of raider, +5pts to Dark Lance on Raider
-Ditch the +2CP from patrols
-Don't take all 15 Hellions in 1 squad
-Don't use Blade Artists if playing against an opponent who doesn't get a 'doctrines-equivalent' rule yet. I already do this with Doctrines if playing against a non-9th codex, so this is just gonna be standard practice.
Start from there, see how normal casual games end up. I don't own Drazar and only own 5 Incubi, so they're not as much a concern.
If I play pure wych cults in a more casual matchup I'll probably bring a Beastmaster and several big beast squads to balance out potentially undercosted wyches and succubi, but that's where I'll start from.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
-+5pts to body of raider, +5pts to Dark Lance on Raider
-Ditch the +2CP from patrols
-Don't take all 15 Hellions in 1 squad
-Don't use Blade Artists if playing against an opponent who doesn't get a 'doctrines-equivalent' rule yet. I already do this with Doctrines if playing against a non-9th codex, so this is just gonna be standard practice.
Start from there, see how normal casual games end up. I don't own Drazar and only own 5 Incubi, so they're not as much a concern.
If I play pure wych cults in a more casual matchup I'll probably bring a Beastmaster and several big beast squads to balance out potentially undercosted wyches and succubi, but that's where I'll start from.
As a part-time Drukhari player (stuck in lockdown) that is my thought. Park Book of Rust and see how they behave. Then rework Book of Rust. The Codex and Book of Rust coming out together makes it harder to tease out the problem.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
Using tournament data from 2020 and 2021 means you have been around politicians and the media too much..........I can't imagine why the data would look off or OP right now?????
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them.
Again, I proffer, play the game and learn something from the games. Do that. Over and Over. Take your pride out of the game and people may learn that there is a lot more they can do to win a game than just complaining about bad dice and the opponent's codex. ("your" in this context is used as a generic euphemism for the average opponent, not "you" specifically. I have no idea if you fit into the above statement or not).
There is no pride in getting beaten over and over again. Specially when you end up with conclussions like, my army is bad and can not win against an army with a good set of rules, or something like you have to rebuild your army to a such a financial investment degree, that you may just as well buy a good list.
Also the fall off thing was being said about harlequins too. And here we are, a good chunk of 9th ed has past, and not only did harli wins did not fall off, but CWE, Inari and pre new codex DE were supping them up to get great success with their armies.
On the other side of things I also remember 8th ed with its, wait for the codex, then wait for the FAQ, then wait for the CA, then wait for the spring FAQ, then wait for the next CA, then wait for the next year spring FAQ, then maybe they will get a new codex, And when the new rule set finaly comes out the game gets rest. So the wait game and GW does not always pen out well.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
yukishiro1 wrote: Anecdotes don't refute mass data. What you and your friend do in your games have no real bearing the power of the faction as measured by tournament performance.
DE are winning in tournament games at a rate unprecedented in 40k history except for the worst balance disaster the game has ever seen. That's not something that can be refuted by "L2P and stop whining, as evidenced by my games with my friend."
I can't speak to everyone else's experiences. I can only speak to my own. As a BA player, I am far more concerned about the DG matchup than I am the DE matchup so far. That can change. Maybe they are as broken as so many here seem to feel they are, but I would far rather use my anecdotal "git gud scrub" approach if it means that the faction isn't burned in a dumpster fire because people who likely haven't played against them at all, or once, lost and got mad and went to the internet to cry about it.
Again, I proffer, play the game and learn something from the games. Do that. Over and Over. Take your pride out of the game and people may learn that there is a lot more they can do to win a game than just complaining about bad dice and the opponent's codex. ("your" in this context is used as a generic euphemism for the average opponent, not "you" specifically. I have no idea if you fit into the above statement or not).
I'm also willing to bet that the super high win rate will likely normalize over time. I am sure there is a learning curve. We went through this every time there was a shake-up in WMH. There was always a huge boost of data from a recent tournament where the newest hot thing had a massive win rate, and it would be pushed down over time as people learned to adapt. this happened almost all of the time when something new came out.
Again, this isn't about you and your experience playing your friend. Your experience playing your friend does not matter. I'm sorry if you find that harsh, but it's the truth. Balance decisions are based upon aggregate data, not upon someone playing their friend in their basement.
This is about tournament performance. You are essentially telling the entire 40k competitive community that they need to stop whining and L2P because you play with your friend and he doesn't dominate you.
Only once before in the history of the game has a faction had this type of win rate, and it was so bad it is literally the by-word for embarrassing balance failure. Literally never in the history of the game have we had a faction with a win rate anywhere near this that ended up normalizing over time. I repeat: never in the history of the game. Every single faction that had win rates anywhere near this ended up getting nerfed hard because it was way out of whack. IH - the only other example of win rates this high - had to be nerfed hard TWICE, because the first nerf wasn't hard enough. Castellan? Nerfed hard. Ynnari? Nerfed hard. And those were only ever in the mid to high 60s, not 74% like we're seeing with DE.
74% win rates don't normalize over time. A win rate of 60% may fall to something acceptable as people figure it out; a win rate of 75% does not. It would be unprecedented in the history of the game if it did. If you are banking on DE being balanced and the win rate falling to normal over time, you are betting that something that has never before happened ever is happening now.
People will cry L2P no matter how imbalanced the game is. People did that with Scatterbikes for Pete's sake. People did that with a Marine player getting 350 free points at minimum.
Are you shocked we have People crying it here?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Surprised? No. More amused and slightly annoyed to see people trotting out the same stuff they always do after every release, even when the data here is markedly different. The situation we're seeing with DE here is unlike anything we have ever seen in the past (at least since we started tracking data), except for the IH debacle.
Trouble is, L2P is actually accurate for most posters here, only not when its used as a targeted attack. Many people could vastly improve their 40k game (I know I certainly could) which would change results dramatically. Tournament data is not the hot property people make it out to be, but its the best we have. Way too many variables.
Drukhari are a problem right now, but thats because the dataset is small and flawed. If the results are the same in 2 months with no further rule changes, maybe people are on to something.
bullyboy wrote: Trouble is, L2P is actually accurate for most posters here, only not when its used as a targeted attack. Many people could vastly improve their 40k game (I know I certainly could) which would change results dramatically. Tournament data is not the hot property people make it out to be, but its the best we have. Way too many variables.
Drukhari are a problem right now, but thats because the dataset is small and flawed. If the results are the same in 2 months with no further rule changes, maybe people are on to something.
Everybody can improve on their game. I can improve, you can improve, EVERYONE! That doesn't change the imbalance we keep getting though.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Drukhari are a problem right now, but thats because the dataset is small and flawed. If the results are the same in 2 months with no further rule changes, maybe people are on to something.
This is a big misunderstanding of the way data works. As sample size decreases, margin of error increases, but it doesn't suddenly just jump to 100%. A 74% win rate is so far beyond anything normal that the chance of it being an artefact of the sample size is virtually non-existent. Is it possible Drukhari are really "only" at a 69% win rate instead of a 74%? Yes, sure - though it's also possible they are really at a 78%. But 74% is so far beyond anything reasonable that the chance of them really only being, say, a 58% win rate faction (the absolute upper bound of what's acceptable in a competitive game) is in the low single digits, and the chance of them being a 50% win rate faction is statistically zero.
If DE were currently winning 62% of their games "it's only one month of data, wait and see" becomes a defensible argument. At 74%, it isn't any more. We're just arguing about whether DE are pre-nerf IH level broken, or "merely" Castellan level broken. And in either case, that's still broken.
Daedalus81 wrote: Well that was the size FAQ I was expecting. At least they got Reavers. Next few weeks should be telling.
THEY fethed UP REAVERS AGAIN SOMEHOW
they got rid of the point cost for Heat Lances. they couldnt manage to keep track of the TWO different gun upgrades you can take on one xenos unit. A+. incredible job.
Tyran wrote: Well the real argument is that wait for more people to buy DE, then it becomes an overwhelming problem like IH was, then GW will fix it.
On Oct 5th IH played 80 games ( 67% WR ), then 266 ( 74% ), 112 ( 65% ), 180 ( 67% ), 90 ( 68% ), 160 ( 63% WR ), 148 ( 67% ), 63 ( 65% ), 230 ( 66% ).
The period of IH domination at the worst point ever lasted for a week and began to decline. Why did it decline? Because GW rolled out the hot fix.
So why didn't GW do more? They did. CA rolled out. Then we had a pandemic.
DE Apr 10 - 26 games ( 85% WR )
DE Apr 24 - 128 games ( 70% WR )
These two figures together provide a 74% WR overall. DE are potentially already declining. They are likely no less prevalent than IH were at their peak.
This coming weekend we'll probably see more games with the DAO. I am unsure if the FAQ would apply in time or if the DAO ruled on 20 point Reavers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 22:51:32
Drukhari are a problem right now, but thats because the dataset is small and flawed. If the results are the same in 2 months with no further rule changes, maybe people are on to something.
This is a big misunderstanding of the way data works. As sample size decreases, margin of error increases, but it doesn't suddenly just jump to 100%. A 74% win rate is so far beyond anything normal that the chance of it being an artefact of the sample size is virtually non-existent. Is it possible Drukhari are really "only" at a 69% win rate instead of a 74%? Yes, sure - though it's also possible they are really at a 78%. But 74% is so far beyond anything reasonable that the chance of them really only being, say, a 58% win rate faction (the absolute upper bound of what's acceptable in a competitive game) is in the low single digits, and the chance of them being a 50% win rate faction is statistically zero.
If DE were currently winning 62% of their games "it's only one month of data, wait and see" becomes a defensible argument. At 74%, it isn't any more. We're just arguing about whether DE are pre-nerf IH level broken, or "merely" Castellan level broken. And in either case, that's still broken.
You have a small percentage of overall games played by drukhari, along with a faction that no one considered as a meta changing threat going into those tournaments. It cannot be taken too seriously at this point. Let's see after the next few weekends if the meta adjusts to this threat and they can maintain the winrate.
Tyran wrote: Well the real argument is that wait for more people to buy DE, then it becomes an overwhelming problem like IH was, then GW will fix it.
On Oct 5th IH played 80 games ( 67% WR ), then 266 ( 74% ), 112 ( 65% ), 180 ( 67% ), 90 ( 68% ), 160 ( 63% WR ), 148 ( 67% ), 63 ( 65% ), 230 ( 66% ).
The period of IH domination at the worst point ever lasted for a week and began to decline. Why did it decline? Because GW rolled out the hot fix.
So why didn't GW do more? They did. CA rolled out. Then we had a pandemic.
DE Apr 10 - 26 games ( 85% WR )
DE Apr 24 - 128 games ( 70% WR )
These two figures together provide a 74% WR overall. DE are potentially already declining. They are likely no less prevalent than IH were at their peak.
This coming weekend we'll probably see more games with the DAO. I am unsure if the FAQ would apply in time or if the DAO ruled on 20 point Reavers.
People are winning with 20pts reavers too. Plus lets say they do drop even 10%, this still would put them at 66% win rate, which makes them as broken as harlequins are and with a similar to IH win rates.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: Trouble is, L2P is actually accurate for most posters here, only not when its used as a targeted attack. Many people could vastly improve their 40k game (I know I certainly could) which would change results dramatically. Tournament data is not the hot property people make it out to be, but its the best we have. Way too many variables.
Drukhari are a problem right now, but thats because the dataset is small and flawed. If the results are the same in 2 months with no further rule changes, maybe people are on to something.
Has GW ever actually made big errata changes durning summer, like before 8th ed, for example?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/01 01:09:15
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
