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ALL armies need to be equally viable, or as close as is manageable, for the game to be truly healthy. When that isn't what we want, we're literally arguing toward the entire games detriment.
But to accept that in other armies, specially at the hightened DE level wouldn't your army have to be viable in the first place? When your army under performs another army of kills marines real well, with no existing counters, doesn't feel very balanced.
Plus again, in case of armies like Harlequins or DE right now, we are not talking about being viable. BT are a viable list, DE are two tiers above viable.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
footfoe wrote: I gotta nit pick something. Someone mentioned Judiciars as a counter.
Judiciars do literally nothing against Wyches. Cult of strive gets fight first for free all the time, which would cancel out fight last. So charges go first, with their speed that will always be the wyches.
Was +1 attack really not enough? They also get +1 to charge, because why not?
???
Judiciar is not strike last. You simply cannot pick your unit to fight. Also Wyches do not kill a unit they hit instantly unless maybe 10 BB against 5 marines.
That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so.
blaktoof wrote: Drukhari don't auto win versus marines, they have a really high win rate against the common marine builds at the time of Drukhari being released.
You can't build a marine list, or any list, that is completely optimized to kill marine armies- and everything else as well. Yes that does mean that a non marine army optimized to kill marine list will have a good chance to place higher. Just as if marines were not the most played faction and everyone was building to kill eldar and marines showed up you likely would find the marine player would do better.
It is a meta mindset problem, not inherently this codex always wins vs x codex.
The mindset has nothing to do with it. You have to build for the meta as it currently exists, in a world where DG and DA are still strong and other flavors of Marine act as gatekeepers you have to be able to beat them while trying to cram in some tools that are also good against the tier 1 lists. If a list doesn't need to do that because the list that kills gatekeepers also kills the other top lists it is a meta-defining list and likely a bit overtuned.
ALL armies need to be equally viable, or as close as is manageable, for the game to be truly healthy. When that isn't what we want, we're literally arguing toward the entire games detriment.
But to accept that in other armies, specially at the hightened DE level wouldn't your army have to be viable in the first place? When your army under performs another army of kills marines real well, with no existing counters, doesn't feel very balanced.
Plus again, in case of armies like Harlequins or DE right now, we are not talking about being viable. BT are a viable list, DE are two tiers above viable.
I think you're maybe reading too much into what I'm saying. I'm not defending any army or faction over another - I'm absolutely uninterested in those discussions. I don't want to see anyone winning games primarily because of a ruleset that is too potent. Any win or loss should, ideally, be down to nothing but the decisions made by, and the ability of, the players at the table.
That said, real balance in 40K within the current system, is a bit of a utopian dream anyway. But we can advocate for the best possible balance within the system we've got.
When an army is clearly not viable, based on good evidence and not bias, we should all be asking for them to be helped, whether or not we play them. But those are really separate discussions to this one which should be purely about DE, and the adjustments they need to be pushed toward a 50% win rate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/29 20:55:03
Judiciar is not strike last. You simply cannot pick your unit to fight.
I know not everyone is pining for a return to Initiative, but dark gods, this Fight First/Fight Last/Not Eligible/Some Restrictions Apply/Not Valid In Nebraska/Keep Out Of Children system is just poorly handled garbage.
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
Judiciar is not strike last. You simply cannot pick your unit to fight.
I know not everyone is pining for a return to Initiative, but dark gods, this Fight First/Fight Last/Not Eligible/Some Restrictions Apply/Not Valid In Nebraska/Keep Out Of Children system is just poorly handled garbage.
Well, I think a lot of the confusion has to do with older rules interacting with newer rules. The Judiciar rule is pretty well written, I think. Unless I've read it wrong or something. WW strat is written the same way as well as the Plasmancer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/29 23:01:28
Olympus Games GT *Note: Modified a core rule for large models deployment
1st – Tyranids
2nd – Tau
3rd – Imperium - Custodes with Guard
4th – Death Guard
Total War 2021 1st – Harlequins
2nd – Death Guard
3rd – Custodes
4th – Drukhari
To me this shows DE are not OP but just slightly more viable. Being slightly more viable within the first month of release isn't out of the normal either, its a new book with more wanting to play it, if better players think they can win easier with it you bet they will swap to it from their normal as well, and the meta might not shifted yet to help counter them. Thats why you never look too early.
Olympus Games GT *Note: Modified a core rule for large models deployment
1st – Tyranids
2nd – Tau
3rd – Imperium - Custodes with Guard
4th – Death Guard
Total War 2021 1st – Harlequins
2nd – Death Guard
3rd – Custodes
4th – Drukhari
To me this shows DE are not OP but just slightly more viable. Being slightly more viable within the first month of release isn't out of the normal either, its a new book with more wanting to play it, if better players think they can win easier with it you bet they will swap to it from their normal as well, and the meta might not shifted yet to help counter them. Thats why you never look too early.
Right this is the angle I've been harping on, but to reinforce -
It is too early to call them OP, but definitely also too early to dismiss it. There's something weird about all of it and I can't really put my finger on it. I think we'll benefit most with a small FAQ and then sitting on our hands until June for the CA2021.
One other angle to consider is the problem people had with marines - they were so easy to win with at lower games, which made it harder on new or more casual players. DE might be similar.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/29 23:11:01
Well, yeah, DE don't have all top four at events, but there aren't a ton of Dark Eldar players right out of the gate. When Iron Hands dropped, lots of people had a Marine army they could claim was Iron Hands, instantly logjamming top 4's.
A better analyst than me (In this case Robert Jones from Goonhammer) suggests that left unchecked, they are concerned that people will adapt to the Drukhari meta by playing Drukhari.
Judiciar is not strike last. You simply cannot pick your unit to fight.
I know not everyone is pining for a return to Initiative, but dark gods, this Fight First/Fight Last/Not Eligible/Some Restrictions Apply/Not Valid In Nebraska/Keep Out Of Children system is just poorly handled garbage.
Well, I think a lot of the confusion has to do with older rules interacting with newer rules. The Judiciar rule is pretty well written, I think. Unless I've read it wrong or something. WW strat is written the same way as well as the Plasmancer.
It is very weird and understandably confusing to have a statement suggesting Fight First and Fight Last negate, then also have an ability whose net effect makes a unit literally fight last, that isn't a Fight Last ability, which doesn't state explicitly that it isn't affected by the interaction Fight First.
But then it's kind of an old argument and, I admit, a bit off topic.
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
blaktoof wrote: Drukhari don't auto win versus marines, they have a really high win rate against the common marine builds at the time of Drukhari being released.
You can't build a marine list, or any list, that is completely optimized to kill marine armies- and everything else as well. Yes that does mean that a non marine army optimized to kill marine list will have a good chance to place higher. Just as if marines were not the most played faction and everyone was building to kill eldar and marines showed up you likely would find the marine player would do better.
It is a meta mindset problem, not inherently this codex always wins vs x codex.
The mindset has nothing to do with it. You have to build for the meta as it currently exists, in a world where DG and DA are still strong and other flavors of Marine act as gatekeepers you have to be able to beat them while trying to cram in some tools that are also good against the tier 1 lists. If a list doesn't need to do that because the list that kills gatekeepers also kills the other top lists it is a meta-defining list and likely a bit overtuned.
The mindset has everything to do with it
The mindset that marines should be able to optimize to kill marines and somehow still be optimized vs everything else is a poor mindset that is screaming for imbalance among factions. Right now you can build marine lists which are competitive with DE lists, that people are not is a meta issue not a balance issue.
Whatever the most popular faction is has always been a gatekeeper faction. It is good, and has strong points, but because it is popular most lists builds to counter it so it ends up playing mostly lists designed to counter it. In a tournament setting armies for any game which make up most of the playerbase always end up as gatekeeper lists because of the mindset of the meta.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/29 23:35:32
CEO Kasen wrote: Well, yeah, DE don't have all top four at events, but there aren't a ton of Dark Eldar players right out of the gate. When Iron Hands dropped, lots of people had a Marine army they could claim was Iron Hands, instantly logjamming top 4's.
A better analyst than me (In this case Robert Jones from Goonhammer) suggests that left unchecked, they are concerned that people will adapt to the Drukhari meta by playing Drukhari.
Judiciar is not strike last. You simply cannot pick your unit to fight.
I know not everyone is pining for a return to Initiative, but dark gods, this Fight First/Fight Last/Not Eligible/Some Restrictions Apply/Not Valid In Nebraska/Keep Out Of Children system is just poorly handled garbage.
Well, I think a lot of the confusion has to do with older rules interacting with newer rules. The Judiciar rule is pretty well written, I think. Unless I've read it wrong or something. WW strat is written the same way as well as the Plasmancer.
It is very weird and understandably confusing to have a statement suggesting Fight First and Fight Last negate, then also have an ability whose net effect makes a unit literally fight last, that isn't a Fight Last ability, which doesn't state explicitly that it isn't affected by the interaction Fight First.
But then it's kind of an old argument and, I admit, a bit off topic.
Typical GW rules writing.
Write a rule
Write a rule that negates the previous rule
Write a rule that bypasses the rules that negates a previous rule.
Just piling gak ontop of gak until it collapses under its own weight and then start a new edition and do it all over again.
rare rule interaction fight first/fight last: "Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.
Similarly, some rules say that a certain unit cannot be selected to fight in the Fight phase until after all other eligible units have done so. If both players have units that cannot fight until after all other units have done so, then the players alternate selecting which of those units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.
If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it.
"
Judiciar rule: "At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3" of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so."
I...don't get it. In what way is the judiciar's rule not "a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so"? the judiciar would drop the CoS wyches back to the normal fight phase stage, in which case the non-active player (the marine player) would get to select a unit before the active player (the drukhari player). So if you've got a judiciar backing up a large unit of, say, intercessors, wyches charge in, dont fight in the 'fight first' round, then you get to select your intercessos to punch them before they get to punch.
this seems 100% cut and dry. What is the confusion?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
CEO Kasen wrote: Well, yeah, DE don't have all top four at events, but there aren't a ton of Dark Eldar players right out of the gate. When Iron Hands dropped, lots of people had a Marine army they could claim was Iron Hands, instantly logjamming top 4's.
A better analyst than me (In this case Robert Jones from Goonhammer) suggests that left unchecked, they are concerned that people will adapt to the Drukhari meta by playing Drukhari.
But thats any A tier army left uncheck is for concern, can you imagine Sisters left uncheck? Or DG? I still think Sisters are stronger than DE (I have both armies) its just the meta learned out to deal with sisters b.c they had to. Now the community needs to learn to deal with DE.
You know what makes me the most mad about this whole thing? DE is playing like DE has always been meant to play and had played for years, it was only a bit of 8th that DE went tanky, DE has never been like that they always been the Raiding force, Strike fast and Strike hard or die trying, they are playing the same play style for 20yrs and players are still crying they shouldn't be played like that and they shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 Raiders, thats like me saying "Well marines should not be allowed to have more than 3 Power armor units". And marine every day I have marine players telling me they do not have the tools, yes you freaking do. Suppressors wreck DE, Scouts+LSS are better and faster Kabals in vehicles for same cost (literally im not hyperbole or joking), Hammerail/strike, HFDevs, etc... I can list 20 more but you get the idea.
DE are being played a lot now b.c many players has been sleeping on them for years b.c they really never worked in 8th like they should (No DE player wants to play walking Wracks horde and Talos spam) Wyches are finally playable, the thing that DE players has been waiting for for years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 00:04:09
Judiciar rule: "At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3" of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so."
I...don't get it. In what way is the judiciar's rule not "a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so"? the judiciar would drop the CoS wyches back to the normal fight phase stage, in which case the non-active player (the marine player) would get to select a unit before the active player (the drukhari player). So if you've got a judiciar backing up a large unit of, say, intercessors, wyches charge in, dont fight in the 'fight first' round, then you get to select your intercessos to punch them before they get to punch.
this seems 100% cut and dry. What is the confusion?
This confusion exists, and frankly that's all it needs to do to annoy me, but apparently the argument is whether "Cannot be selected" and "Not eligible" are two different things.
It is also suggested that this difference is significant for the purposes of the fight phase interrupt stratagem.
I'm of the opinion that you should be right and that Marines shouldn't get some weird everything-proof-shield magic fight last that bypasses reality because they have... some dude with a clock? But there are otherwise relatively sensible people claiming that this isn't the case.
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
Hmm, its as if these strange rules interactions could have been solved by making USR's instead of bespoke rules.
All USR's and their interactions are handled in the main rulebook. No unit has a rule that exists outside of USR's.
Nope, that would be too easy and make too much sense because I know so many people around here think that calling a special rule something different = fluffy.
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi
Tyran wrote: Sorry, but anyone that tries to argue that "cannot be selected" and "not eligible" are different things is either an or arguing in bad faith.
There is no universe in which that makes a "sensible" argument.
So, they quite literally are different things, judging by the fact that different rules that would have the same effect upon that interpretation appear alongside eachother in the same book.
There's a whirlwind strat that makes enemies not able to be selected to fight, but because that's the wording, units affected by said strat are still eligible to fight and can be selected to fight using the Counter Offensive stratagem.
Since the Judiciar ability changes the eligibility to fight, they cannot be selected to fight using Counter Offensive.
This rules interaction seems... deliberate. As much as any GW rules interaction does, I guess.
because of this, it would also make units which fight first not eligible to fight until the end, and the rare rule wouldn't apply because it affects eligibilty, not selection, which GW have framed as two different things.
Tyran wrote: Sorry, but anyone that tries to argue that "cannot be selected" and "not eligible" are different things is either an or arguing in bad faith.
There is no universe in which that makes a "sensible" argument.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Hmm, its as if these strange rules interactions could have been solved by making USR's instead of bespoke rules.
All USR's and their interactions are handled in the main rulebook. No unit has a rule that exists outside of USR's.
Nope, that would be too easy and make too much sense because I know so many people around here think that calling a special rule something different = fluffy.
I know, right? If they really wanted there to be a Double Fight Last or Double Fight First, it'd help if there was some codifier explaining that this was intended.
CEO Kasen wrote: Marines shouldn't get some weird everything-proof-shield magic
Do note that the Plasmancer and Foulblightspawn use the same wording. So far it looks like DE is the only army excluded from the ability.
I'd say the Blightspawn shouldn't get SuperFightLast. I'd be less likely to begrudge the Plasmancer, because time and breaking rules was always kind of a Necron thing. Still, none of this has even been faq'ed, and I know it's frequently asked.
But now we're easily six miles off topic here.
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
because of this, it would also make units which fight first not eligible to fight until the end, and the rare rule wouldn't apply because it affects eligibilty, not selection, which GW have framed as two different things.
And where, pray tell, has GW framed such thing?
Because as far as I can tell, it was the competitive players who framed it as such and assumed everyone else is going to follow their madness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 02:05:48
I guarantee you GW didn't realize what they were doing. That doesn't mean they won't say it's intended in a FAQ - they do that sort of retroactive blessing of what was clearly just a design oversight all the time - but there is no chance that they meant to introduce a new type of super-fights-last that isn't covered by the "rare rules" section they put into their rulebook specifically to deal with fights first / fights last. If it was intended, it would have been in that rare rules entry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 02:48:19
The mindset that marines should be able to optimize to kill marines and somehow still be optimized vs everything else is a poor mindset that is screaming for imbalance among factions. Right now you can build marine lists which are competitive with DE lists, that people are not is a meta issue not a balance issue.
Whatever the most popular faction is has always been a gatekeeper faction. It is good, and has strong points, but because it is popular most lists builds to counter it so it ends up playing mostly lists designed to counter it. In a tournament setting armies for any game which make up most of the playerbase always end up as gatekeeper lists because of the mindset of the meta.
Marines aren't going anywhere so if you ignore this fact and don't build for killing them you run a risk of either taking a loss or not scoring enough points to be in the running for a tournament win. In either case that sinks your entire tournament, so you build for the meta and hope you can pack in enough other tools to still beat the lists that naturally beat the meta while also beating your list.
One player can't change the meta and, as has been proven, even being a mid-tier or even bottom-tier doesn't significantly drop marine presence so you can't ever really afford to not devote at least some of your list towards killing them.
Amishprn86 wrote: But thats any A tier army left uncheck is for concern, can you imagine Sisters left uncheck? Or DG? I still think Sisters are stronger than DE (I have both armies) its just the meta learned out to deal with sisters b.c they had to. Now the community needs to learn to deal with DE.
You know what makes me the most mad about this whole thing? DE is playing like DE has always been meant to play and had played for years, it was only a bit of 8th that DE went tanky, DE has never been like that they always been the Raiding force, Strike fast and Strike hard or die trying, they are playing the same play style for 20yrs and players are still crying they shouldn't be played like that and they shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 Raiders, thats like me saying "Well marines should not be allowed to have more than 3 Power armor units". And marine every day I have marine players telling me they do not have the tools, yes you freaking do. Suppressors wreck DE, Scouts+LSS are better and faster Kabals in vehicles for same cost (literally im not hyperbole or joking), Hammerail/strike, HFDevs, etc... I can list 20 more but you get the idea.
DE are being played a lot now b.c many players has been sleeping on them for years b.c they really never worked in 8th like they should (No DE player wants to play walking Wracks horde and Talos spam) Wyches are finally playable, the thing that DE players has been waiting for for years.
If a marine player runs that list how do they then deal with Sisters, DG, DA, Necrons, Custodes, et al. when they start meeting them at the top tables? The fact that DE are a smaller part of the meta means you can't tailor for them like you can tailor when marines are powerful, this is the difference.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/30 03:02:50
The mindset that marines should be able to optimize to kill marines and somehow still be optimized vs everything else is a poor mindset that is screaming for imbalance among factions. Right now you can build marine lists which are competitive with DE lists, that people are not is a meta issue not a balance issue.
Whatever the most popular faction is has always been a gatekeeper faction. It is good, and has strong points, but because it is popular most lists builds to counter it so it ends up playing mostly lists designed to counter it. In a tournament setting armies for any game which make up most of the playerbase always end up as gatekeeper lists because of the mindset of the meta.
Marines aren't going anywhere so if you ignore this fact and don't build for killing them you run a risk of either taking a loss or not scoring enough points to be in the running for a tournament win. In either case that sinks your entire tournament, so you build for the meta and hope you can pack in enough other tools to still beat the lists that naturally beat the meta while also beating your list.
One player can't change the meta and, as has been proven, even being a mid-tier or even bottom-tier doesn't significantly drop marine presence so you can't ever really afford to not devote at least some of your list towards killing them.
Amishprn86 wrote: But thats any A tier army left uncheck is for concern, can you imagine Sisters left uncheck? Or DG? I still think Sisters are stronger than DE (I have both armies) its just the meta learned out to deal with sisters b.c they had to. Now the community needs to learn to deal with DE.
You know what makes me the most mad about this whole thing? DE is playing like DE has always been meant to play and had played for years, it was only a bit of 8th that DE went tanky, DE has never been like that they always been the Raiding force, Strike fast and Strike hard or die trying, they are playing the same play style for 20yrs and players are still crying they shouldn't be played like that and they shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 Raiders, thats like me saying "Well marines should not be allowed to have more than 3 Power armor units". And marine every day I have marine players telling me they do not have the tools, yes you freaking do. Suppressors wreck DE, Scouts+LSS are better and faster Kabals in vehicles for same cost (literally im not hyperbole or joking), Hammerail/strike, HFDevs, etc... I can list 20 more but you get the idea.
DE are being played a lot now b.c many players has been sleeping on them for years b.c they really never worked in 8th like they should (No DE player wants to play walking Wracks horde and Talos spam) Wyches are finally playable, the thing that DE players has been waiting for for years.
If a marine player runs that list how do they then deal with Sisters, DG, DA, Necrons, Custodes, et al. when they start meeting them at the top tables? The fact that DE are a smaller part of the meta means you can't tailor for them like you can tailor when marines are powerful, this is the difference.
Why is that DE's problem? What are you going to say when IG 12 tank meta is strong? To not have Anti-tank b.c then Nids, Orks, and sisters are now counter meta?
Having a TAC list is suppose to be a good thing, if you can not have a TAC list, "tailoring" a list used to be seen as a bad thing. I can not understand your thinking in "Well b.c DE are in the meta now, that means I have to be slightly weaker against DG so you should nerf DE" wtf is that thinking? Why does DE need to be nerf out of the meta so you can keep your status quo?
Why is that DE's problem? What are you going to say when IG 12 tank meta is strong? To not have Anti-tank b.c then Nids, Orks, and sisters are now counter meta?
Having a TAC list is suppose to be a good thing, if you can not have a TAC list, "tailoring" a list used to be seen as a bad thing. I can not understand your thinking in "Well b.c DE are in the meta now, that means I have to be slightly weaker against DG so you should nerf DE" wtf is that thinking? Why does DE need to be nerf out of the meta so you can keep your status quo?
This. I keep seeing people say exactly "if I tailor to DE then I cant do well against DG etc.." like just add in a couple more auto cannons or bolters in your flex spots.
Olympus Games GT *Note: Modified a core rule for large models deployment
1st – Tyranids
2nd – Tau
3rd – Imperium - Custodes with Guard
4th – Death Guard
Total War 2021 1st – Harlequins
2nd – Death Guard
3rd – Custodes
4th – Drukhari
To me this shows DE are not OP but just slightly more viable. Being slightly more viable within the first month of release isn't out of the normal either, its a new book with more wanting to play it, if better players think they can win easier with it you bet they will swap to it from their normal as well, and the meta might not shifted yet to help counter them. Thats why you never look too early.
What sort of win rate Drukhari would need to win 5/7 events with the playrate they currently have? Somewhere around 80%, is that the bar? Anything under 80% win rate is not OP, just slightly more viable, 70% win rate is just slightly more viable than 35% win rate? It's a freaking miniature game, the sky is never going to fall because of a busted army, but this is about as close to the sky falling as we are going to get because if an army gets an 80% win rate then I think a lot of people are going to take a break from the hobby or refuse to play against Drukhari.
DE are being played a lot now b.c many players has been sleeping on them for years b.c they really never worked in 8th like they should
If by should work you mean 70% win rate, then sure, them being one of the better armies in 8th was not good enough, they need to be the very best.
Why is that DE's problem? What are you going to say when IG 12 tank meta is strong? To not have Anti-tank b.c then Nids, Orks, and sisters are now counter meta?
Having a TAC list is suppose to be a good thing, if you can not have a TAC list, "tailoring" a list used to be seen as a bad thing. I can not understand your thinking in "Well b.c DE are in the meta now, that means I have to be slightly weaker against DG so you should nerf DE" wtf is that thinking? Why does DE need to be nerf out of the meta so you can keep your status quo?
It's a problem because DE beat the snot out of TAC lists. Just building lists that are slightly weaker to DG and slightly better against DE gets you nowhere, you still lose 60% of your games against DE and now you're losing more than 50% against DG. It's a problem because the best counter for DE currently seems to be... DE. Just like Imperial Fists and Iron Hands were the best Iron Hands counters and Castellans countered Castellans like only Castellans could, now Drukhari are the best Drukhari counter, it should be really, super-duper obvious that the best counter to an army should never be that army itself.
Olympus Games GT *Note: Modified a core rule for large models deployment
1st – Tyranids
2nd – Tau
3rd – Imperium - Custodes with Guard
4th – Death Guard
Total War 2021 1st – Harlequins
2nd – Death Guard
3rd – Custodes
4th – Drukhari
To me this shows DE are not OP but just slightly more viable. Being slightly more viable within the first month of release isn't out of the normal either, its a new book with more wanting to play it, if better players think they can win easier with it you bet they will swap to it from their normal as well, and the meta might not shifted yet to help counter them. Thats why you never look too early.
What sort of win rate Drukhari would need to win 5/7 events with the playrate they currently have? Somewhere around 80%, is that the bar? Anything under 80% win rate is not OP, just slightly more viable, 70% win rate is just slightly more viable than 35% win rate? It's a freaking miniature game, the sky is never going to fall because of a busted army, but this is about as close to the sky falling as we are going to get because if an army gets an 80% win rate then I think a lot of people are going to take a break from the hobby or refuse to play against Drukhari.
DE are being played a lot now b.c many players has been sleeping on them for years b.c they really never worked in 8th like they should
If by should work you mean 70% win rate, then sure, them being one of the better armies in 8th was not good enough, they need to be the very best.
Why is that DE's problem? What are you going to say when IG 12 tank meta is strong? To not have Anti-tank b.c then Nids, Orks, and sisters are now counter meta?
Having a TAC list is suppose to be a good thing, if you can not have a TAC list, "tailoring" a list used to be seen as a bad thing. I can not understand your thinking in "Well b.c DE are in the meta now, that means I have to be slightly weaker against DG so you should nerf DE" wtf is that thinking? Why does DE need to be nerf out of the meta so you can keep your status quo?
It's a problem because DE beat the snot out of TAC lists. Just building lists that are slightly weaker to DG and slightly better against DE gets you nowhere, you still lose 60% of your games against DE and now you're losing more than 50% against DG. It's a problem because the best counter for DE currently seems to be... DE. Just like Imperial Fists and Iron Hands were the best Iron Hands counters and Castellans countered Castellans like only Castellans could, now Drukhari are the best Drukhari counter, it should be really, super-duper obvious that the best counter to an army should never be that army itself.
Even if DE was a 50% winrate players are still going to be mad b.c they have to expect DE and that takes away from their stupid list tailoring. The problem is people don't even want DE to be meta viable.
If you lose to DG b.c you changed 2 units out of your list for DE and able to beat DE, well maybe DG is the problem? If everyone has to tailor their lists for DG why is that DE's problem?
IH didn't counter Castellans they DOMINATED the meta. DE is not dominating anywhere near the same levels at all, you can see in those events that many DE players are going 3-2 in in a meta against many different armies against normal meta lists. So clearly you can shift to beat them and still stay strong against DG.
just give it a bit of time. there are builds that DE certainly don't want to see, and so far Mechanicus has been shooting them off the table and scoring out the win on turns 3+ in my area
the marine players who are triple carts or triple eradicators, or super-duper dreadnought lists are losing to them. DE handle Skews really well from what i have seen and played, but a decent balance of melee and shooting, plus a bit of speed has kept me in the game with them. as a concession, I dropped a few models and shifted some points, and am playing double suppressors. well, see how it goes. It's a concession, I'm betting I don't need 5 or 6 eradicators to do the job, I can get by with 3 or 4, so I'm going to add a little bit more ranged flexibility for them.
i of course could be wrong, but I've been having good enough games with my BA against them that the games were definitely decided on skill and not power level.
the good thing is that it isn't like testing my idea isnt fun. i love to play. i love to win, and i love getting my ass kicked.
Nah DE is just completely different from the meta and yes they are strong vs low count slow armies (cough marines cough) but against armies like Tau (when new book comes out) Admech, even guard poses a problem for DE. DE needs to get to you and trade up. If you stop DE from trading up, well then DE loses. Marines "meta lists" has nothing to stop trading up.
I'll tell you what, Space Wolves are scary for me as a DE player so are CF's RG etc... but not elite 7 unit lists, MSU lists with Suppressors, Hellblasters, and units like Scouts with LSS's (they are SOOOO cheap and effective lol a LSS is 55pts for a better venom) then I'll be scared to even go after BGV's, Vets, or other hard melee units b.c as soon as I do i'll in a hail of bullets that counters my -1 to hit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 06:01:31
Seabass wrote: just give it a bit of time. there are builds that DE certainly don't want to see, and so far Mechanicus has been shooting them off the table and scoring out the win on turns 3+ in my area
the marine players who are triple carts or triple eradicators, or super-duper dreadnought lists are losing to them. DE handle Skews really well from what i have seen and played, but a decent balance of melee and shooting, plus a bit of speed has kept me in the game with them. as a concession, I dropped a few models and shifted some points, and am playing double suppressors. well, see how it goes. It's a concession, I'm betting I don't need 5 or 6 eradicators to do the job, I can get by with 3 or 4, so I'm going to add a little bit more ranged flexibility for them.
i of course could be wrong, but I've been having good enough games with my BA against them that the games were definitely decided on skill and not power level.
the good thing is that it isn't like testing my idea isnt fun. i love to play. i love to win, and i love getting my ass kicked.
I don’t think you are facing very efficient drukhari builds/players if you are having success with BA against them. BA have absolutely nothing really useful to take them down. Double suppressors on average need more than one turn to down a raider for example. But if you are having fun against them more power to you
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 06:09:09
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
Seabass wrote: just give it a bit of time. there are builds that DE certainly don't want to see, and so far Mechanicus has been shooting them off the table and scoring out the win on turns 3+ in my area
the marine players who are triple carts or triple eradicators, or super-duper dreadnought lists are losing to them. DE handle Skews really well from what i have seen and played, but a decent balance of melee and shooting, plus a bit of speed has kept me in the game with them. as a concession, I dropped a few models and shifted some points, and am playing double suppressors. well, see how it goes. It's a concession, I'm betting I don't need 5 or 6 eradicators to do the job, I can get by with 3 or 4, so I'm going to add a little bit more ranged flexibility for them.
i of course could be wrong, but I've been having good enough games with my BA against them that the games were definitely decided on skill and not power level.
the good thing is that it isn't like testing my idea isnt fun. i love to play. i love to win, and i love getting my ass kicked.
I don’t think you are facing very efficient drukhari builds/players if you are having success with BA against them. BA have absolutely nothing really useful to take them down. Double suppressors on average need more than one turn to down a raider for example. But if you are having fun against them more power to you
That is one of the shittiest comments I've seen on here. BA can win games. DE can lose them. but I won't go to insult your friends to make that point.
I'm also thinking 18 accelerator shots from BS3 kills a raider in a turn. havent fully mathed it, and it might not. feels like it would be fine though. We'll see.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
or arguing in bad faith.
