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Hey Dakka, in the process of creating a compendium of all the likely ways I'm liable to run my chaos terminators, and it got me thinking. I don't see chaos players use them very much, but just about every space marine (all variants) player I know strongly considers bringing at least one squad. So I was wondering what the Dakka consensus was about Loyalist vs. Chaos in terms of the termies:

Do you think one is far superior than the other? Over-costed? Great value? Better tactics? Completely identical? Also, reasons why they are (or are not) taken in either set of possible lists.

Thanks for your feedback in advance!

*Note: I understand that threads are more apt to recieve replies for having a lot of errors in the typing\mentality\argument\grammar\etc., so I have included a couple spelling and grammar errors for just that reason. Your welcome!

I rarely see Blood Angels or Space Wolves take terminators. The current edition is just not terminator friendly. Cheap vanilla hammernators, Belial and buddies, and Grey Knights are where you see them the most. Also BT maybe because they get two special weapons at five guys.

The problem is that Chaos terminators don't do anything special. They have only one type of transport and are lackluster without it. Shooty variant termies are just too easy to kill right now.

I'm no expert, but the ability of chaos terms to all take the combi-plas/meltas that arrives via DS in enemy territory or on an objective can ruin an opponent's day.

Further tooled up with Marks, after they get done with their initial combi-barrage, (and if they survive the blowback) then make it into assault, they can be difficult to stop.

All of this gets VERY expensive, but it frequently works, especially since the TAU and Eldar are gun-lining like guard these days.

I ran the numbers Resting One, and they do get to be very expensive. However, if you kite out Chaos to be identical to a standard 5 man terminator squad, they actually come in at 15 points cheaper. The difference being a storm-bolter vs. a combi-bolter.

I wonder which is better, the two shots at 24, or the twin linked bolter, for overall combat effectiveness. I'm liable to say the combi-bolter, simply because of the odds to hit and that I find myself in rapid-fire range more often than out of it.

Chaos Terms (like regular CSMs) are not Fearless.

Seeing that VOTLW is 3 pts per, and Icon of Vengeance being 35, that's likely the primary points difference between loyal and unloyal.

Not to mention ATSKNF being so hideously inexpensive.

I've never put a lot of stock into chaos termies not being fearless. They seem to always be with an HQ which makes them fearless, or them not being fearless is never an issue. That being said, I suppose you can argue to give the entire chaos squad VotLW, thus making them cost the same as a Loyalist 5 man termie squad. So then the differences would be:

Loyalist: ATSKNF, Storm-bolter
Chaos: 10+ Ld, Combi-bolter, Hatred(Space Marines)

Am I missing anything in terms of differences?

Really the most worthwhile advantage of the Chaos Terminator is how disposable they are. 3 combi weapons, suicide in, and they kill something of reasonable value, then draw additional firepower away. It's also enough attacks of reasonable quality to clean up support squads, so they do have to shoot them, or lose some pathfinders/Devastators/Heavy Weapon Teams to combat. Because suicide melta is much less important these days, and few lists still need it, they don't show up much anymore.

A one-turn Plaz/melta volley for only 5 pts per is nothing to sneeze at.

A 4 man squad can crank out eightS7 AP2 plaz shots, or four S8 AP1 melta zaps. In the case of melta especially: side/rear armor Vehicles, big walkers, enemy commanders, you name it.

The competitive crowd still does it these days.

Aipoch wrote:I don't see chaos players use them very much

Look harder.

Aipoch wrote:Do you think one is far superior than the other? Over-costed? Great value? Better tactics? Completely identical? Also, reasons why they are (or are not) taken in either set of possible lists.

The best terminators in the game right now, I'd say, are CSM terminators. With a power axe and a combi-melta, they have way more utility than most other termiantors, and are cheaper, as well. And unlike loyalists, you can give a combi-weapon to EVERY terminator, not just one special weapon per 5 models.

And you have a lot more flexibility, being able to take them in squads of 3-10, and being able to choose which power weapon they're carrying, and what kind of combi-weapon they have. And their flexibility is further augmented by some really nice upgrade potential, like the ability to take I5 and FNP, or T5, or +1A and FC and reroll charge range, or a 4++ and guns at the same time (guns which can start people on fire).

And they're cheaper.

CSM termies are great. The ONLY problem with them is that they don't score, but for how much else you get with them, they're still worth it.

Behind CSM, I'd put space wolves termies. They likewise have flexibility in their close combat options, and they score. They don't get serious shooting options or the ability to take marks, though. In a pretty distant third would be deathwing because they likewise have options (but not good ones), and they score. Everybody else is in a pool below these three.

Of course terminators - ANY terminators - are still worth taking. They still have deepstrike, they still have good close combat abilities, and they still have GREAT force concentration. They're also a good denial unit, whether they score or not.

The problem that most people have with them is that either they use them wrong, or they expect WAY too much from them. They're not gods of the battlefield incarnate. They're highly concentrated space marines. If you use them like space marine squads, rather than monstrous creatures, you can get a lot out of them.

I would put BA terminators on par with CSM and SW's

This is because you can get TH/SS. 5 TH/SS Terminators with a BA Terminator Librarian is a tough squad to crack, and they get prescience.

the SW's get TH/SS but are more expensive than BA, and CSM do not get SS's at all. (Though 5+ inviln +1 because of a mark is nice, it is just not as effective as a 3+ SS invuln.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I would put BA terminators on par with CSM and SW's

This is because you can get TH/SS. 5 TH/SS Terminators with a BA Terminator Librarian is a tough squad to crack, and they get prescience.

So do DW, with cheaper Librarians and can still take a Cyclone to boot.

And THSS termies still die 100% as fast to volume of fire. And they do 0% of anything in the shooting phase.

And the worst thing is, it's still possible to beat THSS termies in CC with some units, like DCA blobs (who also have prescience). Against those things, you kind of don't have a chance but to run away, thus botching the entire point of taking terminators in the first place. To add insult to injury, they'll lose to their points in MoK CSM termies.

Being able to take one or two stormshields is a great idea, and I do really like the upgrade in general. Being forced to sort of waste an entire termie squad on them, though... not so good.

Of you tool out your CSM tremies with just power wepons they get to strike at INT, with MOK that is still 4 attacks and they are going first.

 Aipoch wrote:


*Note: I understand that threads are more apt to recieve replies for having a lot of errors in the typing\mentality\argument\grammar\etc., so I have included a couple spelling and grammar errors for just that reason. Your welcome!

This is quite funny.

 alanmckenzie wrote:

 Aipoch wrote:


*Note: I understand that threads are more apt to recieve replies for having a lot of errors in the typing\mentality\argument\grammar\etc., so I have included a couple spelling and grammar errors for just that reason. Your welcome!

This is quite funny.

Especially seeing as the only error (that I could find) was in the note itself.