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Hello

When I use the bosspole to reroll my leadership. The rules allow me to make a singel armour save and then remove one ork to reroll the failed leadership. But what ork should I remove?
The one closest to the boss using the bosspole? The one closest to the enemy causing the leadership test? Am I allowed to choose? Or a random ork?

Before I allways picked the ork myself and none complained, but recently they pointed out that it should be randomized. Thats rather orky so its ok with me. The problem is how the h*ll do you randomize in an inteligent way with an odd number of orks? Lets say 7?

Also, the rules states you cant take the hit on the ork with the bosspole. But that about a unit with plenty of bosspoles? Last game I had three Nob bikers (the rest were dead). Two with bosspoles and one without. My opponent tried to snipe the one without bosspole to force me to take a panic test without using a bosspole as the two left can't hit eachother. Or can they?

Can a Nob with a bosspole hit a Warboss without a bosspole to get a reroll? That would be rather dangerous for the Nob...

You may inflict the wound on any model that's part of the unit, except the one actually utilizing the boss pole. While it might be bad for a nobz' retirement plans to hit his boss in the head with his trophy stick, he is not forbidden from doing so.

I don't know whether you have to randomize the casualties though, but if you do, you might want to add a d20 (available at almost any gaming/comic store) to your gaming kit. Just reroll all numbers higher than the amount of orks in question.

no you choose the model no randomisation in it at all

it does not tell you to randomize.

Nothing in the FAQ about it (except to say you get to take an armour/invulnerable save)... and the rule itself states "you may choose to inflict a wound on that unit". You're choosing to inflict a wound, but it gives *NO* detail about allocation, and there's no source to take the nearest model from as with normal shooting. So we have to go by page 15 of the Rulebook - "Random Allocation" - which applies when "the position of the attacker is unclear".

Note that the Codex was released when the rule was that you could choose allocation - this is no longer the case. So it would seem to me that randomising it is the only way to pull it off while completely following the rules, without making any up.

Exactly how to randomise is covered on page 5 - so for the example of 7, you'd split into two groups of Orks. Then roll a single die:
1-3 = group 1, the 4 Orks on the left
4-6 = group 2, the 3 Orks on the right
Then once you have your group, you can roll a D3 for group 2. Group 1 you would roll D6 and reroll any result of 5 or 6.
You need to roll a single die each time because with more than one, middling numbers have more combinations possible than outliers. For instance, a 2 on 2D6 is only possible if both dice come up as 1, but you can score 7 from a 1+6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2 or 6+1.

I don't think the attacker is that unclear. It's the guy with the bosspole. Closest model to him.

 Super Ready wrote:
Nothing in the FAQ about it (except to say you get to take an armour/invulnerable save)... and the rule itself states "you may choose to inflict a wound on that unit". You're choosing to inflict a wound, but it gives *NO* detail about allocation, and there's no source to take the nearest model from as with normal shooting. So we have to go by page 15 of the Rulebook - "Random Allocation" - which applies when "the position of the attacker is unclear".

Note that the Codex was released when the rule was that you could choose allocation - this is no longer the case. So it would seem to me that randomising it is the only way to pull it off while completely following the rules, without making any up.

Exactly how to randomise is covered on page 5 - so for the example of 7, you'd split into two groups of Orks. Then roll a single die:
1-3 = group 1, the 4 Orks on the left
4-6 = group 2, the 3 Orks on the right
Then once you have your group, you can roll a D3 for group 2. Group 1 you would roll D6 and reroll any result of 5 or 6.
You need to roll a single die each time because with more than one, middling numbers have more combinations possible than outliers. For instance, a 2 on 2D6 is only possible if both dice come up as 1, but you can score 7 from a 1+6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2 or 6+1.

Of course, in your example, any given Ork in group 2 is more likely to be hit than any given Ork in group 1. Specifically the probability of Ork A in group 2 getting hit is 1/6 rather than the 1/7 it should be, while Ork X in group 1 is hit 1/8 times.. The way to do it and get actual fair results is to roll a d6 for the group, and then roll a d6 for the Ork looking for a 1-4 for group 1 or a 1-3 for group 2. Any other results when rolling for the individual Ork cause you to start over from scratch, rolling for the group.

Or ya know, just roll a D8 and re-roll any results of 8.

I don't think the attacker is that unclear. It's the guy with the bosspole. Closest model to him.

But it isn't... here's the fuller line, emphasis mine.
"Each time a unit with a Bosspole fails a Morale test you may choose to inflict a wound on that unit (not on the model with the Bosspole)"
The rule refers to the wound being inflicted as a choice made by the player, not an attack coming from the pole. As well as this, the pole is triggered by being considered an attribute of the unit, not the individual model.

Of course, in your example, any given Ork in group 2 is more likely to be hit than any given Ork in group 1.

Absolutely - and that's why I'd use a higher denomination die like a D20 if I had one available. But, the rules per page 5 tell us to randomise larger groups in this way. Strictly under RAW, using larger denomination dice isn't allowed at all.

 Happyjew wrote:
Or ya know, just roll a D8 and re-roll any results of 8.

Well yeah, or a D10 if you don't have a D8, or a D12, etc, etc. But not everyone has those kinds of dice, because some 40K players only play 40K.

RAW: What super ready said.

HIWPI, if you start fiddling around looking for a d7, d5, whatever, just pick a ork.

You already failed a morale test, odds are you'll fail it again, just grab a ork and break already

 Super Ready wrote:

I don't think the attacker is that unclear. It's the guy with the bosspole. Closest model to him.

But it isn't... here's the fuller line, emphasis mine.
"Each time a unit with a Bosspole fails a Morale test you may choose to inflict a wound on that unit (not on the model with the Bosspole)"
The rule refers to the wound being inflicted as a choice made by the player, not an attack coming from the pole. As well as this, the pole is triggered by being considered an attribute of the unit, not the individual model.

The wound is caused by an effect of the bosspole, which is carried by the boss. End of story. You're artificially introducing uncertainty where none exists. "Unit with a bosspole" refers to the entity making the morale check, which has to be a unit. And units have wounds inflicted on them, that's perfectly normal, and in no way changes where the wound came from. Players making choices, once again, has nothing to do with where wounds come from - we choose every single weapon fired, for instance, that doesn't make them "come from" us.

That argument falls apart with the nearest possible example, Perils of the Warp on a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers. We have to be specifically told that it's taken on a character if one is available. Otherwise it's a random member of the unit. That's another example of a unit inflicting a wound on itself, by your reasoning you would have the wound apply to the nearest model to... what? The caster? Which model is the caster?

Also, to back up my argument that the rule most definitely 100% refers to the pole as a function of the unit. Gets Hot is an example of a unit being wounded by itself, but in that case we're told the wound is applied to the "firing model". Other abilities that cause units to attack themselves, such as Mindshackle Scarabs, specifically mention models when referring to allocating the attacks. The bosspole doesn't. It tells you to check the unit for the bosspole, and to inflict the wound on that unit. The only time a model is mentioned is to tell you that you can't allocate to the model carrying the pole. This in no way dictates how to allocate to the rest of the unit.

we choose every single weapon fired, for instance, that doesn't make them "come from" us.

The rules don't refer to shooting attacks as a player choice. When allocating wounds, we're told to do so by measuring from the firing unit. Again, a qualifying term is used relating to models or units on the table, giving us a reference point - and it's the same with close combat, with regards to models in base contact or that are engaged. There is no such reference point from the bosspole rule.
It's unusual for a rule to say that a player may choose to inflict Wounds without specifying where the wounds are coming from, and in this case it's clear that it's a hangover from the Codex being old, but there's no precedent that allows us to assume the wound comes from the pole. Other attacks come from specific units as far as the rules are concerned, even if we as players made that choice.

the wound itself comes from the nob and is allocated according to the controlling player. RaW and RaI, a nob isn't about to smack his big shoota guy until he has to no is he

Chris Lysander wrote:
the wound itself comes from the nob and is allocated according to the controlling player. RaW and RaI, a nob isn't about to smack his big shoota guy until he has to no is he

Again, this is not what the rule says. The rule doesn't say the wound comes from *anywhere* except a choice on the player's part and gives no indication how to allocate, aside from the exception for the bosspole-carrying model.

Chrysis wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Or ya know, just roll a D8 and re-roll any results of 8.

Well yeah, or a D10 if you don't have a D8, or a D12, etc, etc. But not everyone has those kinds of dice, because some 40K players only play 40K.

While d8 and d12 are really exotic dice, the d20 is probably the second most used dice besides the d6, I even have regular board games with d20 in them (the Clone Wars version of Risk had d8's though). I'd even argue that it's easier to get a d20 than a scatter dice, so the argument is hardly valid.

As for the rule itself, considering that the ork is physically punching the ork in question (reference to big green fist in FAQ) closest model will probably be fine RAI. However, RAW I agree with Super Ready, the rule just tells you to inflict a wound on the unit.

Chris Lysander wrote:
the wound itself comes from the nob and is allocated according to the controlling player. RaW and RaI, a nob isn't about to smack his big shoota guy until he has to no is he

Again, you post an assertion as "RAW" without actually providing any actual, you know, rules. As per the tenets, please state from the Ork Codex or FAQ where the player allocates the wound.

If you fail to do this, your assertion is considered invalid for this discussion.

Lol I'm being trolled by someone who to this day has failed to provide any evidence backing their claims up with any evidence when it comes to discussions I have been involved in, but fine by me lets notch another one up to me.

paraphrasing the fluff crap out,

Each time you fail a morale check a unit with a boss pole you may choose to inflict a wound on the unit....(not the guy carrying it)..."

therefore i allocate said wound to a model in the UNIT as there is no actual focal point of said attack only restriction of not the carrier . nothing has been faq'd to say other wise


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and as a note Nosferatu if you want to claim peoples assertions are invalid for not going to the codex for such a simple thing take note of your point yourself on all future rule checks as i can count 8 off hand you have provided your I am right you are wrong assertions without ANY rules quotes

Chris Lysander wrote:
Lol I'm being trolled by someone who to this day has failed to provide any evidence backing their claims up with any evidence when it comes to discussions I have been involved in, but fine by me lets notch another one up to me.

paraphrasing the fluff crap out,

Each time you fail a morale check a unit with a boss pole you may choose to inflict a wound on the unit....(not the guy carrying it)..."

therefore i allocate said wound to a model in the UNIT as there is no actual focal point of said attack only restriction of not the carrier . nothing has been faq'd to say other wise


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and as a note Nosferatu if you want to claim peoples assertions are invalid for not going to the codex for such a simple thing take note of your point yourself on all future rule checks as i can count 8 off hand you have provided your I am right you are wrong assertions without ANY rules quotes

So what does anything in that rules quote have to do with a nob not killing the big shoota boy?
That's what Nos said you have no rules support to claim as RAW. Oh, and Nos has quoted rules when required. When you make an assertion that goes against the rest of the thread, the onus is on you to prove your claim - with rules, not ad hominem attacks.

the big shhota boy was an example, jeeeesh the point remains a model in the unit is wounded and since there is no point of wounding, i.e the nob, i choose where the wound goes, and the count has just shot upto 12 now where he is claiming the i am right your wrong and no quotes and in 5 cases off hand he has been proven to be worng but demands that others prove their side repeatedly after being caught out, and you rigeld are yet another

Take it easy. This is a forum for discussing rules and GW rules aren't always the clearest. Sometimes the wording is messed up, sometimes a rule just doesn't mention a situation players can immediately get themself into. And with the Ork codex it's just an old rule and no FAQ saying how it should work in 6th.

Personally I don't care which Ork you remove. If they're taking morale checks they're already on the way out.

Chris Lysander wrote:
the big shhota boy was an example, jeeeesh the point remains a model in the unit is wounded and since there is no point of wounding, i.e the nob, i choose where the wound goes, and the count has just shot upto 12 now where he is claiming the i am right your wrong and no quotes and in 5 cases off hand he has been proven to be worng but demands that others prove their side repeatedly after being caught out, and you rigeld are yet another

The only rule you've shown is that the nob can't be wounded. Please cite something - anything - that supports the bolded assertion.
And you shouldn't use examples that you can't prove.

Chris Lysander wrote:
the big shhota boy was an example, jeeeesh the point remains a model in the unit is wounded and since there is no point of wounding, i.e the nob, i choose where the wound goes, and the count has just shot upto 12 now where he is claiming the i am right your wrong and no quotes and in 5 cases off hand he has been proven to be worng but demands that others prove their side repeatedly after being caught out, and you rigeld are yet another

So youre ignoring the rules for Random Allocation, which EXACTLY cover this situation?

Please, provide a rule for the bolded statement. You will find that the "since" line actually proves you use random allocation. You have read the random allocation rules, yes?

Oh, and reported for your ad hominems, failure to follow the tenets, etc.

Chris Lysander wrote:
since there is no point of wounding, i.e the nob, i choose where the wound goes

This is the bit you've got wrong, you aren't given permission to allocate the wound however you see fit. This was the case in 5th but now, Random Allocation on page 15 applies instead.

Leave the personal attacks and the "right/wrong datamining" out of this. For a few reasons:
1) you make yourself look foolish, and it also makes any assertions you make from here on out look biased.
2) we''re trying to establish the meaning of RAW. It's not a pissing contest, nobody cares how many times someone's been wrong before if they're right and can prove it.
3) nos is not the only one disagreeing with you.

Asabove. There is a quite extraordinary logical leap being made, which directly contradicts the rules in the rulebook laid out for *exactly* this type of situation. Even without the rulebook rule being present, leaping from "there is no source" to "this means I can choose where the wound goes" is illogical - you have created a causal relationship where none exists.

Its like stating a heldrakes Vector strike lets you pick where the wound goes, as there is no direction the wound is coming from, despite the FAQ stating otherwise.

how would you randomize that, if there are 7 models in the unit and you fail your LD check?
Since you are causing the wound you pick the model in the unit. As someone said the Bosspole holder can't hit himself. I usually give the HQ the bosspole, since usually they will be the last one standing in the unit.

If a Heldrake Vector Strikes a unit, the player of the enemy unit can choose any model in that unit to take the wound. The wounds will resolve with that model, until either the model is removed or the wound pool is emptied. If there are wounds left over after the model is removed, the player of the hit unit, can pick any other model in the unit and continue to do this until the wound pool is emptied.

Normally, this would resolve with the closest to the Heldrake, but because the Heldrake had to pass over the unit, there is no longer a closest model. No where in the FAQ does it state differently.

Random allocation on pg 15 covers that Sleg.

 Sleg wrote:
Normally, this would resolve with the closest to the Heldrake, but because the Heldrake had to pass over the unit, there is no longer a closest model. No where in the FAQ does it state differently.

BRB wrote:Page 43 – Special Rules, Vector Strike.
Change the second paragraph to read “When Swooping, this
model may savage its prey. At the end of the Movement Phase,
nominate one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved
over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit
takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength
and AP3, using Random Allocation. Against vehicles, these hits
are resolved against the target’s side armour. No cover saves are
allowed against these hits.”

The underlined (and page 15 of the BRB) disagree with you.

 Sleg wrote:
Since you are causing the wound you pick the model in the unit.

No rule says that.

If a Heldrake Vector Strikes a unit, the player of the enemy unit can choose any model in that unit to take the wound.

Again, no such rule.

Normally, this would resolve with the closest to the Heldrake, but because the Heldrake had to pass over the unit, there is no longer a closest model. No where in the FAQ does it state differently.

Wrong I'm afraid.
Vector Strikes absolutely use Random Allocation.

"Page 43 – Special Rules, Vector Strike.
Change the second paragraph to read “When Swooping, this model may savage its prey. At the end of the Movement Phase, nominate one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength and AP3, using Random Allocation. Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target’s side armour. No cover saves are allowed against these hits.”

Random Allocation actually says if there are 2 models roughly the same distance away, just pick one to be the closest and they will remain the closest.

The Bosspole is being used within the unit, you could have an argument for the closest to the bosspole, but it clearly says page 92 in the Ork Codex, "Each time a unit with a bosspole fails a Morale test you can choose to inflict a wound on that unit (not on the model with the Bosspole) in order to re-roll that Morale test."
Since the unit is taking the wound, the player of that unit can pick any model in the unit to take the wound (except the Bosspole holder). It doesn't get any clearer than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again if the entire unit is considered the closest model, just pick 1 model in the unit to be the closest.