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And let's do this without Augustus, Blood Angel or any home boys of either setting up a rumble in the parking lot.

Is it legal to pre-measure movement?

The main rulebook does not address this at all that I can see. The only argument I've seen on the issue is "the rules don't say you can, so you can't", but I'm not convinced of that yet.

So input?

The rules specifically rule out pre-measuring for shooting. To my mind, that means that pre-measuring for movement is allowed, or they would also rule it out. There are plenty of instances where pre-measurement is necessary but not specifically allowed, such as measuring deplyment zones. Are those to be outlawed by the "permissive rules" argument?

East Side, represent!

Ok.. my homeboy comments aside... I think this is going to come down to an almost personal ethics issue in the end. We've all got different things that we do.

I personally will almost 99% of the time have my movement planned out, and it absolutely will not matter if suddenly the 6" turns out to be not enough. I commit myself to a course of movement, and I move that way. I've taken back a move on extremely rare occasions, but for the most part I stick with what I originally planned. The fact that I don't voice those plans outloud falls back on the "ethics" of the situation.

Ragnar's statement in the last thread was probably the most extremely ethical stance I can imagine on movement. Most of his stuff I agree with, some of it I don't, but overall I guess I follow his "guidelines" without really realizing it.

One thing I'll defend harshly though (without rules to back me) is that I do NOT think you have the right to measure "effects", like checking to see if you're within 12" on Leadership, or to stay outside a Nurgle's Rot effect. I think you should move, and THEN live or die by your judgements in the subsequent phases. If you moved out of Synapse or LD range... tough. If you moved into Nurgle's Rot... tough as well. Learn to guestimate better next time!

At this point in the game's life, most of the players are pretty hardened veterens, and even the newer ones, after about a year or two can easily estimate 6", 12" etc at a glance. And if they can't... then getting smacked on the tabletop will teach you to start estimating MUCH faster!

This should be a pretty interesting thread since there's not a whole lot of RAW involved... the intent debates should be fun!

Thanks,

Well, I'm looking for rules on the issue. I think it's kind of hard to stand behind any ethical claims if the rules aren't standing there next to you.

(and having said that, I don't premeasure intentionally. I have taken moves back, but not because of the distance, but rather a change in tactics)

The rules are very sparse.

I don't even see it as ethics so much as a style of play. Ethics surely involves conduct which is unfair to the other player. If both sides are allowed to pre-measure, then how can it be unfair? It might annoy one player that he can quickly and accurately estimate distances by eye and the other can't, but I don't see that as a problem. I suppose it could become a problem if the game is time-limited and one player uses lots of measurement as a way of running out the time when he is losing.

My early wargames experience was boardgames where of course everything is pre-measured by the hex overlay. It was never an issue. You could always count the range for firing or movement. Perhaps that attitude has stayed with me.

OTOH, I can see where other people are coming from, wanting players to plan their moves in advance and get on and take the consequences if they go wrong. That's an equally valid style of play.

As far as I'm concerned you can measure and remeasure, within your zone, as much as you want during deployment as long as you don't reposition a unit other than the one currently being deployed.  This to me represents the fact that at the beginning of battle, you have whay you would consider optimal deployment.

As for premeasuring for powers and abilities -  if you do that, why not just place cut-out that shows the required radius.  Perhaps a 12' diameter paper circle around all your Guardians that shows how far they can shoot, or a 18' diameter around you Tau commander with Command and Control node.  If you aren't sure, get closer than you think you need (or further for negative effects). 

In tourney play I'll let you take back a small amount of moves, but no way would I allow premeasuring unless specifically stated in the rules.  The estimation of distance should, and often does, play a part in the game.  In casual play, I'm pretty much a pushover with everything except premeasuring.

 

It MUST be legal to pre-measure movement, and deployment distances. I have never seen a player declare his movement, move his models, then measure the distance from start position to end position. The player will lay his tape measure down next to the model, then move the model to the pre-measured distance. So the measuring has happened before the movement which is in effect pre-measuring. Is it annoying to watch a player orbit his tape measure around a single model for 30 seconds? Yes. Is it illegal? No.

I also don't see how it is illegal to measure deployment distances. The rulebook tells us to deploy in a certain 'pre-measured' area. Sometimes it also tells us that our models cannot be within a certain distance of the enemy. Without measuring beforehand this would be impossible. If the models were simply placed in the 'estimated deployment zone an 'estimated' distance from the enemy it would create a logical loop. The rulebook simply tells us that we "can't" place our models out of the deployment zone or within a certain distance of the enemy. But we already have! We placed them before we measured. The book doesn't give us any recourse for what to do next. Are the troops destroyed? Must their first move be back ionto the deployment zone, or away from the enemy? It doesn't say because the players "can't" have done it in the first place and they won't know for sure unless they have measured it before/during putting the models down.

The bottom line here is: what do the rules say.

So far no one's giving anything resembling a rules backed opinion, and certainly nothing that could be the basis of accusing someone of cheating.

And that's what I'd like to know: is it legal or not, regardless of local custom.

BGB pg 15. "Move any or all of the models in the unit up to their maximum move distance." It doesn't say to move them, then measure, then move them back to within their movement distance if over. It also, doesn't give us the option to move them, then measure, then move them again to get them up to the max if the estimation was short. Without putting a marker down where the model started there would be no way to measure after movement had occured anyways.

If it was possible the rulebook would have put a penalty effect like: If you declare the unit is shooting at targets out of range the unit's shooting is ineffective for that turn. There is no penalty effect for foot infantry moving 7". The rulebook doesn't tell us to move him back 1". So I guess the real question is: What happens if a foot infantry model is moved 7" because the estimation was 6"? There is nothing in the rulebook to account for this situation. So even though the rules do not explicitly tell us to pre-measure they leave us no other option.

P.S. Remember that stupid quote I used in the termy armor thread about success being measured in blood? Well, it's on page 15 of the BGB as well. I guess marines aren't the only ones who determine winners by body fluids!

There is nothing illegal or unethical about measuring the radius in which your unit/model can move.

However, measuring to check and see if you would get into assault rage by measuring beyond this radius would be the part I would argue as illegal and unethical.

So in review I would open up my tape up to the maximum range and make an invisible circle around the unit/model I am wanting to move. I would not measure to a spot and then check any ranges by measuring further than the distance my models can move.

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 03/29/2006 10:57 AM
"It MUST be legal to pre-measure movement, and deployment distances. I have never seen a player declare his movement, move his models, then measure the distance from start position to end position."

I've seen too many people measure "leadership range" when really they are just checking for shooting range or to see if they are within 12" to move then charge.  If you want to premeasure everything play a game on hex maps. 

My how to move instructions - You declare you move direction, measure within your move range in that direction, then place the figs there.

"I also don't see how it is illegal to measure deployment distances. The rulebook tells us to deploy in a certain 'pre-measured' area. Sometimes it also tells us that our models cannot be within a certain distance of the enemy. Without measuring beforehand this would be impossible. If the models were simply placed in the 'estimated deployment zone an 'estimated' distance from the enemy it would create a logical loop."

I don't think anyone is, or would, argue about premeasuring your deployment zone.  Although I always remove whatever I used to mark quarters or deployment before the game start so you don't know if you're in a quarter or deployment zone until the game ends.

It's not an area specifically covered by the rules. In some places it is forbidden and in other places it is not mentioned. Does the lack of mention mean it is forbidden? Typically, yes. However, we are moving out of the game a bit and into associated actions necessary for gameplay.

Traditionally in a RAW argument, the rules are permissive and anything else is 'cheating'. However a permissive ruleset for measuring would have to look like: hold the tape measurer with your right hand, extend the tape to the preset distance, lay it over the model in the direction you wish to move, pick up the model with your left hand, set the model down in the direction of the tapemeasurer at the set distance, and don't forget to keep breathing throughout!

What we are looking to define then, is where the RAW stops I guess?

Mauleed, this question is bordering the absurd.

¿Can you explain me how should i move units without allow me to pre-measure movement?.

The only rules about pre-measures in the rulebook are in the Shooting phase section, period.

Allowing me to premeasure with a circle radius would make the Tau command and control node AWESOME!  Every turn I'll measure 18" "leadership range" from my command squad that just happens to be loaded with rapidfire weapons (6" move + 12" shoot = 18").

How about measuring total range for a fast vehicle then moving exactly 13" inches from the max distance to stay out of charge range. 

It also allows you to measure if opponent is in charge range.  "I'll premeasure my 12" tank movement.  Oh, you're squad is within 12" inches.  No, no, I'm not gonna tank shock, I'm gonna unload my Termi assault squad and move towards you....." 

I'll measure 12" for my Whirlwind move.  Huh, your Ork Boy squad is exactly 11" away.  Oh, no, I'm not gonna move the Whirlwind, but the Marine squad next to the Whirlwind will now move back 2 inches just to make sure......"

I guess that I just feel that premeasuring is too abusable.

So far no one's giving anything resembling a rules backed opinion, and certainly nothing that could be the basis of accusing someone of cheating

Well there is no rule stating either way in regards to movement. There are for shooting but not for moving.

So you are essentially asking a question that has no real answer other than opinion, much like what came first, the chicken or the egg? You have to have one to have the other, in this case what happens first the movement or the measuring? You can move the model without measuring, but it won't be very accurate. You can premeasure the move and then move but some claim that is cheating...

Now let's get crazy and add logic, logic is you can't determine the range of a model on the table without measuring first. So, by rule you can move your marine up to 6". You premeasure out from the model 6" and you are within the rules.

Allowing me to premeasure with a circle radius would make the Tau command and control node AWESOME! Every turn I'll measure 18" "leadership range" from my command squad that just happens to be loaded with rapidfire weapons (6" move + 12" shoot = 18").

How is that even remotely the same as measuring the radius for MOVEMENT ONLY? The Tau crisis suit can move 6", that is what you would measure out, not 18".....

I'll measure 12" for my Whirlwind move. Huh, your Ork Boy squad is exactly 11" away. Oh, no, I'm not gonna move the Whirlwind, but the Marine squad next to the Whirlwind will now move back 2 inches just to make sure......"

That would be simply petty and yes IMO abuse but there would be nothing against it rules wise.

Simple,

1> You declare move direction "I'm gonna move towards those woods"

2> THEN lay the tape measure THAT direction to check max distance

3> Move your first guy that direction within the max distance.

Or just lay the tape where you want to move, then move.  Not lay the tape, spin it in a circle, then move. 

That would be simply petty and yes IMO abuse but there would be nothing against it rules wise.

Yes there is. Anything you do that gives you insight into the range to target is, wait for it, pre-measuring range! Which is outlawed in RaW.

Also, do you guys pre-measure your assaults? Cute.

1> You declare move direction "I'm gonna move towards those woods"
2> THEN lay the tape measure THAT direction to check max distance
3> Move your first guy that direction within the max distance.
Or just lay the tape where you want to move, then move. Not lay the tape, spin it in a circle, then move.

Bingo! This is how I do my movement.

ironkodiak:
"My how to move instructions - You declare you move direction, measure within your move range in that direction, then place the figs there."

I think that is an honorable way to do it and I wouldn't mind doing it if you asked me to when we played together. Mauleed is looking for something that can be backed up by rules though. Unfortunately, the only thing you have to declare before measuring is shooting. Declaring everything would make the game more realistic and it would probably move it along quicker too. There would be less staring at the table and more moving minis. If you made a wrong move there's no going back now, so no need to worry about it!

Personally, I am annoyed when players orbit their tapes around their models during movement, deepstrike, leadership, etc. There's a point where the casual measurement becomes an opponent trying to squeeze every ounce of tactical movement out of his models. It's annoying, but is certainly isn't illegal. I'm also annoyed when a player wants to "take back" a move. I think this would happen more frequently if players couldn't measure beforehand.

I should probably note that in a casual game I wouldn't make a fuss. When I say I would get annoyed it doesn't mean I would be mad or never play the person again. It just means that I know I can use a certain amount of leeway later in the game to my advantage if I needed to. So, I would let an opponet take back a move, but later in the game it may be questionable if one of my tanks is obscured. We would just say it's obscured. Usually, it works for an advantage anyways. If I know an opponent wanted to move a certain way or what was deployed in his vehicle that in itself is worth the price to allow the opponent to take it back.

Getting down to Mauleed's basic question, is pre-measurement forbidden by the rules?

First let's define pre-measurement. It's checking distances on the table accurately (with a tape measure or range stick) before deciding to do something that depends on distances. In practice it is often impossible to distinguish between pre-measurement and measurement that occurs as you do things.

1. Movement
Pre-measurement is not forbidden in movement. The movement rules tell you to choose a unit and move its models up to their maximum distance. They also allow you to go back and change a unit's movement providing you haven't started to move another unit. This in effect allows you to pre-measure since you can do a move, measure it and then change it to a different move. In this circumstance, the distinction between pre-measurement and measurement is merely academic.

2. Coherency
You are not allowed to voluntarily move out of coherency. This requires you to measure for coherency as you move models.

3. Shooting
Pre-measurement is specifically forbidden, and units that wrongly guess ranges waste their fire. The fact that it is specifically forbidden in this phase implies that in other phases where it is not specifically forbidden, it is allowed.

4. Assault
Pre-measurement is not specifically forbidden but the rules imply that it is not allowed since you charge enemies you believe are in range, and if you assault a unit which is subsequently found to be out of range, your models return to their start positions.

5. Deployment
Pre-measurement is clearly essential although the rules do not specifically permit it. This case refutes the argument that the rules are "permissive."

If you agree with the above it is clear that pre-measurement is not forbidden throughout the game.

Posted By ironkodiak on 03/29/2006 11:56 AM

Simple,

1> You declare move direction "I'm gonna move towards those woods"

Thus, you are forcing me to declare the move direction of a unit before moving it.  Are you making up rules for the movement phase summary?

Posted By RussWakelin on 03/29/2006 11:57 AM

Also, do you guys pre-measure your assaults? Cute.

 

We are talking about pre-measurement in the Movement Phase, my friend.

In the Assault Phase i will use the assault phase rules  instead.

 

This is a different question. Clearly different players have different styles. It seems impossible to prevent a clever player with a good eye from pre-estimating ranges for shooting by using straightforward measurements during movement in order to gauge the battlefield. As such, perhaps it's silly to forbid pre-measurement during shooting.

However, if pre-measurement should be forbidden, it should be specifically forbidden in all circumstances where it's important.
That's simple rules clarity.

Posted By DaIronGob on 03/29/2006 11:53 AM

Allowing me to premeasure with a circle radius would make the Tau command and control node AWESOME! Every turn I'll measure 18" "leadership range" from my command squad that just happens to be loaded with rapidfire weapons (6" move + 12" shoot = 18").

How is that even remotely the same as measuring the radius for MOVEMENT ONLY? The Tau crisis suit can move 6", that is what you would measure out, not 18".....

One of the quotes earlier suggested premeasuring for powers/abilities like Nurgle's Rot or Leadership.

 

Please understand that I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.  Truthfully I'm probably the nicest guy you could ever play 40K with.  I really don't care about winnign or losing, as a matter of fact I quit playing my marines because I won what I felt was too much.  I cannot EVER recall a time when I got mad or even remotly upset at playing 40K (now Star Wars CCG is another matter......).  If you play what I would consider against the rules or unfairly, I'll let you know how and why I feel that way (usually after the game) and if you won't at least listen to my side, I'll find someone else to play next time.

"The main rulebook does not address this at all that I can see. The only argument I've seen on the issue is "the rules don't say you can, so you can't", but I'm not convinced of that yet." - Ed

Ed, I'm shocked that you have fallen in with the "it doesn't say I can't" line of reasoning.  This is a classic flawed argument.

The rules also don't say I can't pick your model up and move it where I'd like on the table. So why can't I?

I can't becase the rules state what I CAN do, not what I can not do. 

For shame dude, for shame.

3. Shooting
Pre-measurement is specifically forbidden, and units that wrongly guess ranges waste their fire. The fact that it is specifically forbidden in this phase implies that in other phases where it is not specifically forbidden, it is allowed.

By this line of reasoning...can't I premeasure the range of my lascannons in the Assault phase?

Guys, guys, you are totally loosing it here people.

Posted By Shock_Commando on 03/29/2006 12:18 PM

Posted By ironkodiak on 03/29/2006 11:56 AM

Simple,

1> You declare move direction "I'm gonna move towards those woods"

Thus, you are forcing me to declare the move direction of a unit before moving it.  Are  you are making up rules for the movement phase summary?

Isn't placing your tape and making a raduis of movement "making up rules for the movement phase summary?" also?

 

Clearly there is no right or wrong answer.  I would be interested in how many of us on the "no premeasure" side are former RT and 2nd edition players.  I remember measuring of any type being more strict then.  I've noticed in my few months on Dakka that often the players with 10 plus years experience (ie pre 3rd edition players) tend to have same opinions as I.  Not that that's good or bad, it just gives us different biases based on past experiences.

Posted By RussWakelin on 03/29/2006 12:27 PM

< - yet.? that of convinced not I?m but can?t?, you so can, say don?t rules ?the is issue the on seen I?ve argument only The see. can I all at this address does rulebook main>

The rules also don't say I can't pick your model up and move it where I'd like on the table. So why can't I?

I can't becase the rules state what I CAN do, not what I can not do. 

 

That is because this is an area that is arguably outside the scope of the rules.  Such as what methods you use to move your models, the rules don't say you can pick them up with your hand!  Cheater!! 

Some other areas that aren't covered in RAW but could have an in-game effect:

Where do you store models that are inside transports?  In plain sight, under the table, labeled trays?

Where do you store your dead pile?  Hiding them could be advantageous when it comes to the end of the game and your opponent is weighing those heavy last few actions point-wise.

How much time can you take per turn?  Depending on your army and your opponent's, you can heavily manipulate the game outcome if you slow the game down to prevent a 6+ turn finish.

How do you handle tipped/cocked/leaning dice?  Reroll them always?  Only in your favor?

 

Premeasuring movement is arguably amongst these game-effecting but not spelled out in the RAW issues.  Leave it up to player agreement in each game and try not to be a butthead about it either way.  If your opponent really wants to do it: big deal, you get to use it yourself then for an equal advantage.

 

 

 

I agree with ironkodiak.  I've found that most problems I have are directly linked to my own preconcieved notions about the rules. "It's always been that way!" Although, I was largely absent for 2nd edition I still find myself being corrected by newer players when I have assumed something wasn't changed when in fact, it has. Or, my favorite, when a rule was actually written pretty tight in a previous edition is written badly enough now to make it ambiguous and the new player says something like "Show me in the rulebook where it says that." And I have to eat crow because the new rule IS ambiguous.

From what I can find in the Movement Section there is no "Declare movement" step and there is no "Pre-measure moves" step. Personally, I think that by RAW the move must be measured before/during movement, but I don't think there is a solid way to end this debate.

No, I also don't think there is an end to this debate either. As the rules don't say anything on this subject, it is open to a wild degree of interpretation. Similar to Ordnance weapons and what hits under their markers.

This is another of the little details to be agreed upon by the players before the game, or to be covered in the specific event rules in the case of tournaments.

-Hans