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Hi folks,
I've searched for discussions for our favourite Eldar sniper, but while debate raged for a while over infiltrating with squads, I've not seen any real discussion over what I see is a potentially awesome ability to start in combat with an enemy unit of choice. He sounds like the unit the Deathleaper whishes he was!

Reading the rules for him, they appear to be completely explicit and as such would override normal restrictions - so is there anything stopping me from beginning the game from locking a squad of Pathfinders in combat? Rather situational if I can indeed do this, but I can see the sheer threat forcing the opponent to re-deploy defensively since Iliac is no slouch in combat...

Since the only way a model can be within an inch is in combat, and you can only get there in the assault phase...

I'm gonna say no.

The only rules are you cannot move within 1" of enemy models except when charging. While strict RAW it is allowed, I seriously doubt it would fly in a game. If GW addresses via FAQ, expect it to not be possible.

But to quote a snippet from his rule 'Walker of the Hidden Path':

"Illic Nightspear has the Infiltrate special rule, and can be deployed anywhere on the battlefield that is outside of impassable terrain, regardless of enemy proximity."...

So, while there is a rule saying I cannot move within 1" of an enemy model, there is also a rule saying I can't infiltrate closer then 12" to an enemy model - I don't see how his special rule can selectively overrule one but not the other...

The real question is "Does deploying at the start of the game count as movement?"

If yes, then he cannot be deployed within 1" of enemy models.
If no, he can.

If you have multiple restrictions, the rule needs to address and over-ride each restriction before you can ignore any single one of them. Should even one restriction be still in play, then you can not carry out the action in question because you do not have permission to do so. There are many situations you might encounter in 40K where a rule only addresses one certain restriction while ignoring others completely, and in these situations you can not carry out the desired action because other restrictions are still in affect. This is not in answer to your original question, however, just to explain why the rule will need to address and over-ride two restrictions and not just one.

On your original question, I will need to research things before I feel comfortable putting forth an answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have to cut my research short at the moment, I will pick it up later but this is something of a nice little puzzle.

No where in the normal deployment rules does it state that the model counts as having moved during this period nor does it address the possibility of deployment being considered movement. After all, the game hasn't even begun! There are simply no rules informing you how you go about moving models at this point in time because the rules related to this period are all designed around setting up the board so you can begin to play, using the rest of the rules that govern how you actually play this mess of a game. As default permission to move only occurs during the movement phase, in order to actually 'move' a piece you would need specific rules highlighting how that individual unit is capable of moving during these 'out of phase' periods.

Very very gray, I admit....

The special rule was reviewed as well and it states regardless of approximation. If deployment is interchangeable with movement then it has to be interchangeable for this rule as well. This leads to an interesting situation where you can argue permission to move within 1 inch of the enemy model has been granted. The rule clearly states you ignore proximity so it would be addressing both the infiltration restriction and standard movement restriction, if deployment is considered movement of course. It would be hard to hold both the argument that deployment is considered movement, but that specific uses of the word 'deployment' granting permission to ignore certain restrictions are not themselves addressing movement.

The question I was still researching before I had to go, after typing this post, was:
'Are units 1 inch of an enemy automatically engage in combat or is a charge sub-phase a requirement before you are locked in combat?'

That is an additional problem you face for even if permission to start the game within 1 inch of an enemy unit has been granted, you still have to prove that it automatically locks that unit in combat. If not, the unit can simply move back an inch in order to compile with the 1 inch bubble rule, which is also a gray area as debates over if it is required have occurred on this site in the past. If they are not locked this would simply lead to that unit, assuming the controlling player has first turn, shooting you like normal and/or being guaranteed to successfully complete the charge thanks to your proximity.

Well thought out JinxDragon. I thought that any model in base contact was engaged or locked in combat; be worth clarifying!

Page 23 does point towards Yes, models in base contact are locked in combat.

I do remember some issues concerning the wording in this section, in particular how it interacts with other rules, in the past and this is what I wanted to dig into a little bit more. Given that I don't have the time and energy to do so right now, I am going to simply leave the above and let other people figure it all out. Hope you find an answer to your liking because you have found a very interesting loophole and it deserves to be explored. This is something editors are meant to catch but we all know the long running joke about them and banana's....

Expect it to be errataed quickly as soon as this gimmick starts to see use in the field. If this loophole can be supported by rules, and I am leaning towards that being a very real possibility, then it needs to be addressed by Game Workshop. Given the restrictions against charging in the infiltration rules themselves, and all other restrictions they put in place to prevent charging on the turn of deployment, it is pretty easy to see this special rule was not intended to get around those restrictions.

 Happyjew wrote:
The real question is "Does deploying at the start of the game count as movement?"

If yes, then he cannot be deployed within 1" of enemy models.
If no, he can.

At some points in the game, deployment is most certainly movement, but not in the actual deployment stage.
I don't think you can prove movement at this point, for eg. vehicle ws, jink saves etc, require movement in a previous turn which doesn't exist.
Scouts are clearly "redeployed" rather than moved.
Dangerous terrain tests are not triggered.

There is an "assumption" within the rules, I think, that charging is the only way to initiate a close combat and that can only occur in the assault phase.
In normal circumstances, it's true, this however, looks like a genuine loophole.

Thank you, jinxdragon, for your thoughts.

Batten down the hatches for "easter egg hunt" accusers.
This is a rules[b] forum.

 Happyjew wrote:
The real question is "Does deploying at the start of the game count as movement?"

If yes, then he cannot be deployed within 1" of enemy models.
If no, he can.

No otherwise all skimmers and bikes would get a jink. I.e scout for RW is a redeploy not move so no jink save.

IIRC, Jink only applies from movement in the movement phase, so that doesn't quite work.

Regarding movement in the deployment phase - I'm not aware of anything in the rule book that either states or even implies that deploying is a form of movement; so I'm not clear on where this is coming from...

IMO this a great little feature for Iliac - and given his 1) cost and 2) hitting power (or lack thereof), I really don't think this is broken either. The clear consensus is that he was very much overcosted, and while this ability does certainly help put the points cost into a new perspective; it's still a very situational ability - at S3, T3 and 5+ save, he'll hardly be munching on squads.

But it will make that Tau player think twice about sticking their Pathfinders on a isolated rooftop when they're an Eldar assasin around

Plus I'm not clear on how this is referred to as a loophole - something easily missed, yes, but it's application and restrictions are clearly and explicitly stated - I personally can't see how this wouldn't have been considered when either writing the rules or playtesting...

You'll literally take a non-walker non-vehicle unit out of the game on the first turn - if that's not amazing power I'm not sure what is. The fact that he dies without killing anything sometimes is irrelevant.
edit: thanks for the reminder Nos

non-walker non-vehicle you mean

I do not think that the rule that was quoted above is specific enough to override the 1" requirement. The context of that sentence shows that "enemy proximity" is referring to the 12/18" in the infiltrate rule itself.

Fragile wrote:
I do not think that the rule that was quoted above is specific enough to override the 1" requirement. The context of that sentence shows that "enemy proximity" is referring to the 12/18" in the infiltrate rule itself.

As above that is RAI but RAW can be taken either way. That is why it is a loop hole.

Fragile wrote:
I do not think that the rule that was quoted above is specific enough to override the 1" requirement. The context of that sentence shows that "enemy proximity" is referring to the 12/18" in the infiltrate rule itself.

....which only appliues to movement. Please find a rule restricting you from being within 1" of an enemy unit in general. When you can provide said rule, you may have a rules based argument. Currently you dont.

Pg 10. "A model cannot move within I " of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase."

The only way to get closer than 1" is to charge into close combat. Is deploying a charge move?

....and now you will argue what "move" means.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 10. "A model cannot move within I " of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase."

The only way to get closer than 1" is to charge into close combat. Is deploying a charge move?

....and now you will argue what "move" means.

You're trying to selectively apply a restriction against a rule which explicitly states it overrules all existing restrictions bar impassable terrain...

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 10. "A model cannot move within I " of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase."

The only way to get closer than 1" is to charge into close combat. Is deploying a charge move?

....and now you will argue what "move" means.

You're trying to selectively apply a restriction against a rule which explicitly states it overrules all existing restrictions bar impassable terrain...

No, I'm applying a general rule that applies everywhere as I see no permission to violate it. As I posted before, "regardless of enemy proximity" clearly applies to the Infiltrate USR in the same sentence. You have no permission to deploy within the 1' rule or locked in combat. While this wording would tend to appear to be a loophole, it really is nothing more than not reading the sentence in context.

Fragile, so you can point to a rule that says you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model unless in combat? There is a rule that you cannot move within 1".

Fragile wrote:
Pg 10. "A model cannot move within I " of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase."

The only way to get closer than 1" is to charge into close combat. Is deploying a charge move?

....and now you will argue what "move" means.

Yes, as Deployment is not Movement. You have read the rules in 40k which defines what a "move" is, yes?

You are deploying less than 1" away. You are not moving less than 1" away. Noticed a difference there?

Good, now you have (hopefully!) seen your error, can you find a rule restricting you from placing models within 1"? Page and para please.

I do not need more than the page cited. The only allowable way to get within 1" of an enemy is a charge move. Deploying is not a charge move. This is one issue that GW is consistent on through just about every rule, movement, falling back, tank shock relocation, EL, RP, Mawloc TTFD, Flyers etc.. Such consistency would not overridden without specific exception, which you do not have. Apply the rule, within the context of the rule.

Fragile wrote:
I do not need more than the page cited. The only allowable way to get within 1" of an enemy is a charge move. Deploying is not a charge move. This is one issue that GW is consistent on through just about every rule, movement, falling back, tank shock relocation, EL, RP, Mawloc TTFD, Flyers etc.. Such consistency would not overridden without specific exception, which you do not have. Apply the rule, within the context of the rule.

So you have a page and paragraph for the underlined? I see a rule saying you cannot move within 1" unless charging, but I do not see a rule saying you cannot be within 1" unless in combat. Besides, what happens when you charge a non-walker vehicle? The vehicle starts within 1" of an enemy model and did not move there.

Also, with every example you listed, with the exception of RP/EL, every one is movement, and hte rules are quite clear you cannot move within 1".

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Good, now you have (hopefully!) seen your error, can you find a rule restricting you from placing models within 1"? Page and para please.

The only thing I can think of off-hand, is p79, placing disembarked models.

I have a certain amount of sympathy with wanting to debunk this (as I think its a loophole/oversight, but that's all it is, what I think), but the raw is not up to it.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
I do not need more than the page cited. The only allowable way to get within 1" of an enemy is a charge move. Deploying is not a charge move. This is one issue that GW is consistent on through just about every rule, movement, falling back, tank shock relocation, EL, RP, Mawloc TTFD, Flyers etc.. Such consistency would not overridden without specific exception, which you do not have. Apply the rule, within the context of the rule.

So you have a page and paragraph for the underlined? I see a rule saying you cannot move within 1" unless charging, but I do not see a rule saying you cannot be within 1" unless in combat. Besides, what happens when you charge a non-walker vehicle? The vehicle starts within 1" of an enemy model and did not move there.

Also, with every example you listed, with the exception of RP/EL, every one is movement, and hte rules are quite clear you cannot move within 1".

The distance between the vehicle and the unit were achieved by a charge. And while that is the closest example to breaking the 1" rule, it also has two paragraphs that state what happens when that situation occurs. I think the Tyranid Spore Mines are a far more relevant example.

Q. How far away must my opponent deploy from any Spore Mine Clusters that have arrived via Deepstrike.

A. 1'


Straight deployment example, no "moves" involved. The mines are placed before his deployment and he cannot "deploy" closer than 1" even though deploying is not a "move".

Again, you claimed "you cannot GET within 1" - yet you missed that the rule you cited, again, only disallows you from *moving* within 1".

Moving != Getting, despite your attempts at claiming otherwise. Changing words just to suit your argument isnt a great way to be convincing.

Your example doesnt override the rules for Nightspear - ignoring the usual distance restriction. Find a rule overriding that. Page and paragraph - and please try to avoid altering words this time, please

Ah, fight to the end will you. You cannot move within 1" by rule, nor deploy within 1" of a pre-deployed model by precedent. That is sufficient enough. Nothing in the Nightspear rule overrides that. But I know you will just keep repeating these same lines you do.

Fragile, you have shown intent that you are not allowed to be within 1" unless charging/in combat.

Now, the real question can you show an actual rule that forbids deploying within 1" of an enemy model?

Fragile wrote:
Ah, fight to the end will you. You cannot move within 1" by rule, nor deploy within 1" of a pre-deployed model by precedent. That is sufficient enough. Nothing in the Nightspear rule overrides that. But I know you will just keep repeating these same lines you do.

If by "fighiting" you mean "asking you to follow the tenets of this forum", then yes, I am indeed "fighting"

Have you shown an actual rule that backs up your assertions? I'm not seeing one. Any chance you can find one? Or do you agree you are playing a houserule?