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I've noticed this many places, among them a Fallout 3 modding site being one of the worst offenders. There were people writing in all caps pseudo legal warnings like "DO NOT USE ANY PART OF THIS MOD IN YOUR MODS WITHOUT EXPLICIT WRITTEN PERMISSION AND THE CONSENT OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL!" It was monumentally stupid, and it really bothers me. For one, people don't "own" the rights to mods that they create as they are derivative work and therefore owned by the company that made the video game. Second, mods are also technically copyright infringements if the creators don't have "EXPLICIT WRITTEN PERMISSION" from the company. Third, people should be flattered that anyone would think their work good enough to use in their own work, especially when taking into account the first to facts, and therefore not be anal about people using their work provided that they include attribution. Do you think they are aware of this, or do you think they just don't care, presumably because they're too egotistical?

Is anyone else bothered when people do this?

Yeah. This happened last year in the manga scanlation community and it was just baffling. Scanners got PO'd because sites would link to their copyright infringing scans of manga without 'giving credit' to the scanners. It's just childish.

Mods are a different case from scanners not being credited.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
For one, people don't "own" the rights to mods that they create as they are derivative work and therefore owned by the company that made the video game.

Completely wrong. A mod author may have certain limits on what they can sell (since they're using elements of the original game that they don't have the right to sell), but that is NOT the same thing as the original game publisher getting rights to everything in a mod (including text, 3d models, etc). The mod author retains the rights to everything they create for the game, even if they can't sell it in its current form.

Second, mods are also technically copyright infringements if the creators don't have "EXPLICIT WRITTEN PERMISSION" from the company.

You're talking about Fallout 3, a game which included modding tools. That is permission from the game's publisher.

Third, people should be flattered that anyone would think their work good enough to use in their own work, especially when taking into account the first to facts, and therefore not be anal about people using their work provided that they include attribution.

I'm trying very hard to say this in a way that won't get me banned, but you are absolutely wrong about this. The sheer arrogance and selfish disregard for others in that one simple sentence is just staggering. If someone doesn't want you to use their work then you don't have the right to decide that you're giving them enough "flattery" to justify stealing it. And if you try to use that excuse with them in person they're probably going to punch you in the face.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
For one, people don't "own" the rights to mods that they create as they are derivative work and therefore owned by the company that made the video game.

Completely wrong. A mod author may have certain limits on what they can sell (since they're using elements of the original game that they don't have the right to sell), but that is NOT the same thing as the original game publisher getting rights to everything in a mod (including text, 3d models, etc). The mod author retains the rights to everything they create for the game, even if they can't sell it in its current form.

Actually, the creators of the original work (the one that the fan work is derivative of) are the owners of the fanfiction, mod, or what have you. If Games Workshop wants to publish your Warhammer story in a book, they can do that because they are the owner, not you. You don't get to own someone else's intellectual property, especially when it's a copyright infringement.

Second, mods are also technically copyright infringements if the creators don't have "EXPLICIT WRITTEN PERMISSION" from the company.

You're talking about Fallout 3, a game which included modding tools. That is permission from the game's publisher.

That is not the same thing as giving permission to create any particular mod. The same applies with Games Workshop. They have written fluff in a way that makes it easy to write fanfiction and to create your own armies and worlds, but that is not permission to do so. If you make a Fallout 3 mod for promoting White supremacism (something like the game Ethnic Cleansing) the owners of Fallout can send takedown orders to any website distributing it, and if necessary, sue you for copyright infringement, let alone defamation.

Third, people should be flattered that anyone would think their work good enough to use in their own work, especially when taking into account the first to facts, and therefore not be anal about people using their work provided that they include attribution.

I'm trying very hard to say this in a way that won't get me banned, but you are absolutely wrong about this. The sheer arrogance and selfish disregard for others in that one simple sentence is just staggering. If someone doesn't want you to use their work then you don't have the right to decide that you're giving them enough "flattery" to justify stealing it. And if you try to use that excuse with them in person they're probably going to punch you in the face.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Actually, the creators of the original work (the one that the fan work is derivative of) are the owners of the fanfiction, mod, or what have you. If Games Workshop wants to publish your Warhammer story in a book, they can do that because they are the owner, not you. You don't get to own someone else's intellectual property, especially when it's a copyright infringement.

Completely false. In fact some authors refuse to read fanfiction at all because of the possibility that a fanfiction author could sue them for using a similar idea in a future work. If the fanfiction author could demonstrate that the original author had read the fanfiction then they would have a legitimate case. Despite being a derivative work the fanfiction author's own elements remain their property.

What "derivative work" status means is that the original creator has the ability to stop you from using it. So, to use your 40k example, GW could send a cease and desist notice to the website hosting your story and demand its removal, and the host would have to comply. And of course if you insisted on publishing it anyway they could sue you. But they can NOT take your work and publish it as their own.

This is in the context of tolerated copyright infringing work that must be provided for free.

"Must be provided for free" is not the same thing as "must allow others to use it however they like". If I post a story (entirely my own work, not fanfiction) for free that doesn't mean that you can steal it and use it for your own project, and if you do I'm entirely justified in suing you.

The only selfish disregard for others being shown is by the mod creators who use another company's intellectual property without permission

It is being used with permission, because the game includes permission to use the provided mod tools to create mods. The requirement that the company specifically approve each individual mod for it to be permission exists only in your own mind.

Also by doing that, they're asserting ownership over the company's intellectual property.

No they aren't, they're asserting ownership over their own intellectual property. The "do not use this" warning applies only to their own models/dialogue/etc, which is their intellectual property.

I don't make a lot of software, and it's never particularly advanced, but when I do, I make it open source because I'm not a selfish donkeycave. I'm not going to be making any money by keeping programs or software extensions to myself, so I say anyone can redistribute or modify it provided that they leave attribution.

That's very nice of you. The fact that you decide to offer your own work under generous license terms does not mean that everyone else is obligated to do the same. And it certainly doesn't mean you're entitled to steal anyone's work if you think you'd like to have it.

Also, open sourcing your software or content that you're not using to make money actually helps you and gets more people to see it. Website administrators are encouraged to use the Creative Commons license because the attribution drives readers to the original source.

And if the person making the thing in question decides they'd rather keep control over their work than have that greater publicity then that's too bad for you. You're obligated, both legally and ethically, to respect that decision.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Actually, the creators of the original work (the one that the fan work is derivative of) are the owners of the fanfiction, mod, or what have you. If Games Workshop wants to publish your Warhammer story in a book, they can do that because they are the owner, not you. You don't get to own someone else's intellectual property, especially when it's a copyright infringement.

This is impressively wrong.

Oh hey, look what I found with a 30 second search:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work wrote:The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material.

So, just like I said: the original author has copyright over the original work and any elements of the original work used in the derivative work, the author of the derivative work has copyright over everything they added to the original to make the derivative work.

Please read: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4&multiPageMode=true

Games Workshop wrote:PLEASE NOTE that any work you create using our intellectual property is not "owned" by you. It is called a "derivative work" and those parts based upon our IP do not give rise to their own copyright. Please bear this in mind when using our IP.

Writing fanfiction doesn't generate its own copyright.

"Must be provided for free" is not the same thing as "must allow others to use it however they like". If I post a story (entirely my own work, not fanfiction) for free that doesn't mean that you can steal it and use it for your own project, and if you do I'm entirely justified in suing you.

Anyone who sues over fanfiction is a fool. For one, there's no loss, except the loss of credit if the work was plagiarized. Therefore, the plaintiff would not be able to receive damages and would suffer a net loss for legal fees OVER FANFICTION. Secondly, the plaintiff would probably lose the case on the grounds that they aren't the owner, and regardless of why they lose, the judge would probably order them to pay the defendant's legal fees for SUEING OVER FANFICTION.

Is there any particular reason you're using the first and second person?

It is being used with permission, because the game includes permission to use the provided mod tools to create mods. The requirement that the company specifically approve each individual mod for it to be permission exists only in your own mind.

No, it isn't. The company could provide modding software with the intent of it being used only by officially licesned companies. It's no different then the obvious places in the Warhammer background where people are encouraged to fill in their own content.


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 Peregrine wrote:
Oh hey, look what I found with a 30 second search:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work wrote:The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material.

So, just like I said: the original author has copyright over the original work and any elements of the original work used in the derivative work, the author of the derivative work has copyright over everything they added to the original to make the derivative work.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere in the document I cited that you are prohibited from asserting ownership over anything you create.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to go sue Lord Kesharq now because he made characters from Sturmkrieg that I didn't tell him to make.

 Peregrine wrote:
If someone doesn't want you to use their work then you don't have the right to decide that you're giving them enough "flattery" to justify stealing it.

I never asked for the permission of an author I quoted, or cited, in the course of writing a paper for publication.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Please read: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4&multiPageMode=true

Games Workshop wrote:PLEASE NOTE that any work you create using our intellectual property is not "owned" by you. It is called a "derivative work" and those parts based upon our IP do not give rise to their own copyright. Please bear this in mind when using our IP.

The GW "legal" page is about as accurate regards the law as a North Korean missile. Any material that is not created by GW but by a third party is a derivative work which is owned by the creator. If I sculpted some extra armour plates onto a model, GW would not then take that and start casting it up without my permission, since they do not own the rights to the parts that I created. Similarly, I could not cast up the model and start selling it, as I do not own the parts that GW originally created.

It would be like an arts and craft store demanding an artist stop selling paintings because they sold them the paints and canvas, therefore they "owned the rights" to anything created with them.

 dogma wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If someone doesn't want you to use their work then you don't have the right to decide that you're giving them enough "flattery" to justify stealing it.

I never asked for the permission of an author I quoted, or cited, in the course of writing a paper for publication.

Using short quotes for educational material with citations is considered fair use.

If GW knew what they are talking about when it comes to copyright then they wouldn't have lost the majority of their claims against Chapterhouse.

Redacted. --Janthkin

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Please read: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4&multiPageMode=true

Games Workshop wrote:PLEASE NOTE that any work you create using our intellectual property is not "owned" by you. It is called a "derivative work" and those parts based upon our IP do not give rise to their own copyright. Please bear this in mind when using our IP.

The GW "legal" page is about as accurate regards the law as a North Korean missile. Any material that is not created by GW but by a third party is a derivative work which is owned by the creator. If I sculpted some extra armour plates onto a model, GW would not then take that and start casting it up without my permission, since they do not own the rights to the parts that I created. Similarly, I could not cast up the model and start selling it, as I do not own the parts that GW originally created.

It would be like an arts and craft store demanding an artist stop selling paintings because they sold them the paints and canvas, therefore they "owned the rights" to anything created with them.

Regardless of whether the GW page is accurate (it's written from another country with different laws on top of their own POV) anyone publishing fanfiction or running a Warhammer website has to follow it. It may be the case that you own rights to fanfiction you write, but you can't assert ownership anywhere if Games Workshop doesn't want you to because they still control the rights to it and can make you stop publishing it.

 dogma wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If someone doesn't want you to use their work then you don't have the right to decide that you're giving them enough "flattery" to justify stealing it.

I never asked for the permission of an author I quoted, or cited, in the course of writing a paper for publication.

Yes, but you're talking about fair use in (presumably) an academic context with established rules about how much of a work you're allowed to use and how you have to cite it. That's entirely different from the OP talking about how they're entitled to use whatever they want because it's not fair if they can't.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Writing fanfiction doesn't generate its own copyright.

You completely missed the point of what the GW statement is saying. All it says is that by writing fanfiction you don't create a new independent work that you have sole copyright over. You create a derivative work and GW retains the right to shut you down, but NOT the right to use whatever they want from your work. Which is exactly what the US copyright law I quoted says, if you want to go back and read my previous post.

No, it isn't. The company could provide modding software with the intent of it being used only by officially licesned companies. It's no different then the obvious places in the Warhammer background where people are encouraged to fill in their own content.

Which is a nice strawman. The modding tools included with Fallout 3 are clearly intended to be used by anyone who wants to use them.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere in the document I cited that you are prohibited from asserting ownership over anything you create.

That's nice. GW can claim all they want, the document I quoted is the actual US copyright law.

That's nice. GW can claim all they want, the document I quoted is the actual US copyright law.

From Wikipedia.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Regardless of whether the GW page is accurate (it's written from another country with different laws on top of their own POV) anyone publishing fanfiction or running a Warhammer website has to follow it.

No they don't. If GW makes demands that go beyond what the actual copyright laws say then it's just a bunch of empty words.

It may be the case that you own rights to fanfiction you write, but you can't assert ownership anywhere if Games Workshop doesn't want you to because they still control the rights to it and can make you stop publishing it.

Now you're starting to get it.

GW can stop you from publishing fanfiction based on their IP.

GW can NOT take your fanfiction and publish it themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

That's nice. GW can claim all they want, the document I quoted is the actual US copyright law.

From Wikipedia.

Yes, and your point is? It's a direct quote of the US law, which you can find here if you want to spend an extra 30 seconds searching for it: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#103

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Regardless of whether the GW page is accurate (it's written from another country with different laws on top of their own POV)

*Looks at his flag*

*Looks at where GW are based*

Yep, although UK and US law are somewhat different, they are pretty similar when it comes to derivative works. Certainly close enough (as far as I am aware) that the points raised by Peregrine are on the money.

anyone publishing fanfiction or running a Warhammer website has to follow it. It may be the case that you own rights to fanfiction you write, but you can't assert ownership anywhere if Games Workshop doesn't want you to because they still control the rights to it and can make you stop publishing it.

I will echo Peregrine here - you are missing the mark of what is being said; GW may "own" elements of the setting (characters from the universe, battles and events etc) and you may then come along and write a work based in the same universe but that doesn't mean that GW (or anyone else) can, as you seemed to suggest in earlier posts, then come along and use all of your work without permission. GW as a company have historically been quite open about letting people use their universe, models; indeed the expectation is that you will convert models, write your own army fiction, etc... much in the same way that FO3 gave people modding tools with the expectation (and indeed desire) that they would create mods. That does not mean that a 4th party (or the original game designers) then can take and use the work created by the 3rd with impunity as you seem to suggest and desire in earlier posts.

 Peregrine wrote:

Yes, but you're talking about fair use in (presumably) an academic context with established rules about how much of a work you're allowed to use and how you have to cite it. That's entirely different from the OP talking about how they're entitled to use whatever they want because it's not fair if they can't.

So, on that basis I can assume that you're making a moral, rather than a legal, argument?

Because there are no universally established rules regarding citation, and the accepted standards that do exist (set in place by university faculty or journal publishers) are not legally relevant.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

I will echo Peregrine here - you are missing the mark of what is being said; GW may "own" elements of the setting (characters from the universe, battles and events etc) and you may then come along and write a work based in the same universe but that doesn't mean that GW (or anyone else) can, as you seemed to suggest in earlier posts, then come along and use all of your work without permission.

Not all of it, but they can use elements of it for the same reason that Fanboi X can use elements of GW IP.

I love a good wiki-lawyer thread.

Technically, a scanlation author has copyright of his translated subtitles though not of the original text and vision.

If it seems inconsistent to be annoyed by someone ripping off your translation of a ripped off manga/anime, it certainly cannot be denied.

Actually, you do have to follow Games Workshop's rules. They can stop you at any moment from publishing your fanfiction if they don't like what you're doing.

If Games Workshop says writers cannot assert ownership of the fanfiction, then they cannot assert ownership of their fanfiction, regardless of their local laws. If they do anyway, then they will be shut down.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Actually, you do have to follow Games Workshop's rules. They can stop you at any moment from publishing your fanfiction if they don't like what you're doing.

If Games Workshop says writers cannot assert ownership of the fanfiction, then they cannot assert ownership of their fanfiction, regardless of their local laws. If they do anyway, then they will be shut down.

I hope GW takes control of Sturmkrieg...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Technically, a scanlation author has copyright of his translated subtitles though not of the original text and vision.

If it seems inconsistent to be annoyed by someone ripping off your translation of a ripped off manga/anime, it certainly cannot be denied.

I don't deny that. Rather, I look at it as the scanlation community (and the mod community, anime-subs etc) exist solely on the good graces of the actual copyright holder. The actual holder of the copyright can easily shut those communities out, either by putting take down requests on scan sites or programming their games to be un-mod friendly. In that sense, arguing about who 'owns' the code or the translation is childish. Scanners and modders have no real power. They can't profit from what they do (typically) and they could be shut down whenever a new CEO comes in.

If you mod a game, or translate an anime/manga, you're doing it as a favor to others with less time or ability. If you want to get credit for your genius, go make an original work. Otherwise, just do what you do and enjoy the fact you've made things funner for others.

My two cents.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong here. I love mods, I read fanfiction, and I read/watch translations of stuff from other countries. I appreciated that people do that for me cause I'd probably never read manga or watch anime otherwise. I just don't see the point in getting into internet wars over something that is essentially a non-profit service to others.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Third, people should be flattered that anyone would think their work good enough to use in their own work, especially when taking into account the first to facts, and therefore not be anal about people using their work provided that they include attribution. Do you think they are aware of this, or do you think they just don't care, presumably because they're too egotistical?

As someone who does work in creative fields, I honestly think this is one of the stupidest things I've read on my entire history at Dakka Dakka.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Actually, you do have to follow Games Workshop's rules. They can stop you at any moment from publishing your fanfiction if they don't like what you're doing.

If Games Workshop says writers cannot assert ownership of the fanfiction, then they cannot assert ownership of their fanfiction, regardless of their local laws. If they do anyway, then they will be shut down.

I hope GW takes control of Sturmkrieg...

What are you talking about? Please explain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:EDIT: Don't get me wrong here. I love mods, I read fanfiction, and I read/watch translations of stuff from other countries. I appreciated that people do that for me cause I'd probably never read manga or watch anime otherwise. I just don't see the point in getting into internet wars over something that is essentially a non-profit service to others.

I agree. We shouldn't get too heated. Also, it's foolish to want to maintain total control over something that is completely non commercial. If someone negotiates a license and will sell their mods eventually, I can understand not wanting people to copy parts of it, but otherwise it makes the author look like a donkeycave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Third, people should be flattered that anyone would think their work good enough to use in their own work, especially when taking into account the first to facts, and therefore not be anal about people using their work provided that they include attribution. Do you think they are aware of this, or do you think they just don't care, presumably because they're too egotistical?

As someone who does work in creative fields, I honestly think this is one of the stupidest things I've read on my entire history at Dakka Dakka.

Please explain.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Actually, you do have to follow Games Workshop's rules. They can stop you at any moment from publishing your fanfiction if they don't like what you're doing.

If Games Workshop says writers cannot assert ownership of the fanfiction, then they cannot assert ownership of their fanfiction, regardless of their local laws. If they do anyway, then they will be shut down.

I hope GW takes control of Sturmkrieg...

What are you talking about? Please explain.

Your Sturmkrieg sector takes place in the 40k universe does it not? Does it use terms from the Warhammer 40k universe? Sturmkrieg falls under the same sort of copyright rules you're placing on fanfiction. So GW can swoop in and use your work without your permission, since you technically do not own Sturmkrieg by the terms you're using.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Actually, you do have to follow Games Workshop's rules. They can stop you at any moment from publishing your fanfiction if they don't like what you're doing.

If Games Workshop says writers cannot assert ownership of the fanfiction, then they cannot assert ownership of their fanfiction, regardless of their local laws. If they do anyway, then they will be shut down.

I hope GW takes control of Sturmkrieg...

What are you talking about? Please explain.

Your Sturmkrieg sector takes place in the 40k universe does it not? Does it use terms from the Warhammer 40k universe? Sturmkrieg falls under the same sort of copyright rules you're placing on fanfiction. So GW can swoop in and use your work without your permission, since you technically do not own Sturmkrieg by the terms you're using.

I'm aware. I ended up making a lot of changes to copyright policies and notices based on their document. I still worked with the laws that Peregrine mentioned, but I don't allow people to assert ownership in violation of GW's policy.

Honestly, I would want Games Workshop to make Sturmkrieg part of the Warhammer canon. Saying that they could doesn't discourage me from working on it.

I think what the OP had remarked on has been demonstrated quite handily in this topic:

It is really irritating to see people claiming exclusive rights to something that is not completely their work or idea.
What is also shown is that people who have done a TON of work do not like having it claimed as someone else's without permission, compensation or at least credit.

There are many quotes about the use of modding tools provided by the publisher in this forum.
They are all accompanied with an agreement of what constitutes "fair use" of what is provided (go look!).
This is like licensing out IP where the use of it is defined.
You can be given the keys to a car but there are conditions to use, not do what you want with it.

It is a slippery slope to start copying people's works without permission because why should they work hard if it is only going to get stolen anyway?
The sense of entitlement and the ability to copy anything not nailed down would kill development of anything new.
Even freeware products have large legal documents to prevent anyone taking it as theirs.

I think this viewpoint of "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is a humble means of looking at building off of ideas from others.

 Talizvar wrote:
I think what the OP had remarked on has been demonstrated quite handily in this topic:

It is really irritating to see people claiming exclusive rights to something that is not completely their work or idea.
What is also shown is that people who have done a TON of work do not like having it claimed as someone else's without permission, compensation or at least credit.

There are many quotes about the use of modding tools provided by the publisher in this forum.
They are all accompanied with an agreement of what constitutes "fair use" of what is provided (go look!).
This is like licensing out IP where the use of it is defined.
You can be given the keys to a car but there are conditions to use, not do what you want with it.

It is a slippery slope to start copying people's works without permission because why should they work hard if it is only going to get stolen anyway?
The sense of entitlement and the ability to copy anything not nailed down would kill development of anything new.
Even freeware products have large legal documents to prevent anyone taking it as theirs.

I think this viewpoint of "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is a humble means of looking at building off of ideas from others.

I agree. It's annoying when people get anal about something that isn't theres.

While people have a right to recognition for work that they create, if they're providing it for free they shouldn't care if people build on it (as they have) if they provide attribution.