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so me and my freind were playing 1000 points eldar vs. dark angels and it ended with two models on the feild a war walker and my chaplin which then got into close combat i had managed to get a pin and blow it up but then the explosion killed me considering this made us tied in kill points how should we decide who won?

Just wow, thanks for making me laugh, better then my friend losing his Archon the same way as you situation changed the outcome of the game.

In any case, Page 122 of the basic rule book allows for the existence of 'tactical draws' in situations where both players have the same amount of points. It will be up to you if you consider this to be a 'everyone wins' or 'everyone loses' situation as that differs from person to person and we can not provide an answer to that question. As a curious side story, your situation it led to a 'two fold draw' as you both would of also lost/won at the end of the game turn because no one had troops left on the field as well. Doesn't help you come to a conclusion on if you can consider this a win or a loss for your side, of course, but just an interesting thing to note.

Play one round of paper, scissors, rock?

Roll a D2. AKA, flip a coin.

Do what you do in any other case of a draw.

Call it a draw.

The secondary objectives and universal usage of VP means you rarely get a draw, even if both sides are wiped out.

So in your case it would work like this.

Each player gets 1VP for Slay the Warlord
If playing Purge the Alien, each players gets a VP for each unit in their opponent's army.
If playing Big Guns Never Tire, each player gets VP equal to the number of HS units their opponent had.
And in Scouring you get points equal to the number of FA choices your opponent had.
And if it's still a draw, check who got First Blood.

Obviously with no models on the field niether player can get points for objectives or Linebreaker.

Also obviously neither player can win as they've been both wiped off the field.

You win.... his guy died first, Pyrric Victory.

It's what is know as a draw - when you both have the same victory points, and have both been tabled.

You both lost, and i bet you laughed about it for a while, which means you both won - it's all about fun in the end

Time to get all RAW up in this muppet plucker!!

...your mate won. No seriously!

Page 74. The "Explodes!" result... nearby units suffer the hit, *THEN* the vehicle is removed. Not only this, page 122 gives no "end of turn" timing for your army being completely wiped out and it calls it a CRUSHING VICTORY, no less. ...sucks to be you...

Very interesting catch you have there Super Ready and while I doubt it was intended, or the possibility even envisioned at the time of writing, you would be technically correct... the best kind of correct!

You should go play Tekken (any fighting game will do) to determine who wins. If you get a double KO, you should both buy lotto tickets.

It's the fact that it's a crushing victory that I think I like the most. I would be tempted to submit it to GW for an FAQ fix, except that I don't really WANT it fixed. It's too funny!

Whatever the official ruling is, I'd call it a tie. This happened to me once back in 5th and it was hilarious.

Remember that wipeout is only checked at the end of a game turn. So at the end of the game turn as both players were wiped out technically you both lose!

 FlingitNow wrote:
Remember that wipeout is only checked at the end of a game turn. So at the end of the game turn as both players were wiped out technically you both lose!

I thought that too. But the end of the turn check is only for whether you have models on the table (ie, not counting Reserves). The *complete* wipeout doesn't have that timing - have a look at page 122.

 Super Ready wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Remember that wipeout is only checked at the end of a game turn. So at the end of the game turn as both players were wiped out technically you both lose!

I thought that too. But the end of the turn check is only for whether you have models on the table (ie, not counting Reserves). The *complete* wipeout doesn't have that timing - have a look at page 122.

Exactly. The complete wipe kicks in immediately when the last model dies. The check for no models on the field is checked at the end of the game turn, giving you time to get reserves in if you still have any.

Actually the order of things as it appears under 'Explodes!' is-

1. The vehicle is destroyed.
2. Nearby units take their hits.
3. The vehicle model is removed.

The question then becomes: Is the army 'wiped out' when the vehicle is destroyed or when the model is removed?

Considering a wrecked vehicle still counts as lost while its model remains on the board I believe we can safely say the unit is lost when it is destroyed, not when it's model is removed. In which case you win

 Abandon wrote:
Actually the order of things as it appears under 'Explodes!' is-

1. The vehicle is destroyed.
2. Nearby units take their hits.
3. The vehicle model is removed.

The question then becomes: Is the army 'wiped out' when the vehicle is destroyed or when the model is removed?

Considering a wrecked vehicle still counts as lost while its model remains on the board I believe we can safely say the unit is lost when it is destroyed, not when it's model is removed. In which case you win

I agree with this breakdown of the "Boom"

Also I've had this happen before, except worse.
Last model was a Rhino, mine a Warboss on Bike. I was 6" away, so they needed a 6" boom and a 6 to wound and for me to not roll a 4+ ... fail. We called it a draw because of all the hilarity.

Both models would have been removed at the same INI step, so it would be a draw.

Fragile wrote:
Both models would have been removed at the same INI step, so it would be a draw.

Arguably once the vehicle is wrecked it is no longer in CC so no more I steps.

Fragile wrote:
Both models would have been removed at the same INI step, so it would be a draw.

After the last unit on one side is destroyed the game is over. I see nothing permitting a end of game delay til the end of initiative step.

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Both models would have been removed at the same INI step, so it would be a draw.

After the last unit on one side is destroyed the game is over. I see nothing permitting a end of game delay til the end of initiative step.

I see nothing permitting you from ignoring the entire process as laid out in the vehicle destruction. This is no different than simultaneous First Blood.

Fragile wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Both models would have been removed at the same INI step, so it would be a draw.

After the last unit on one side is destroyed the game is over. I see nothing permitting a end of game delay til the end of initiative step.

I see nothing permitting you from ignoring the entire process as laid out in the vehicle destruction. This is no different than simultaneous First Blood.

Sure there is, when are you supposed to check? There is no clearcut definition for that.

So then, using this exact same argument, you would say that the vehicle would score the kill first for First Blood ?

The rules state that what happens at a certain I Step is simultaneous. If it is simultaneous then you cannot table someone before then table you...

Fragile wrote:
So then, using this exact same argument, you would say that the vehicle would score the kill first for First Blood ?

The rules state that what happens at a certain I Step is simultaneous. If it is simultaneous then you cannot table someone before then table you...

I steps are for close combat.

Your're not in CC with a wreck.

The scenario above was that a walker vs a chaplain in CC. The walker was destroyed and the explosion killed the chaplain. The I Step is not resolved until everything is done.

Fragile wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Both models would have been removed at the same INI step, so it would be a draw.

After the last unit on one side is destroyed the game is over. I see nothing permitting a end of game delay til the end of initiative step.

I see nothing permitting you from ignoring the entire process as laid out in the vehicle destruction. This is no different than simultaneous First Blood.

Actually there is. The game is over. Unresolved game mechanics no longer matter. Unless you mean to say that once victory conditions are met you are to keep playing. If so for how long? Til the end of initiative step because it's an ongoing mechanic at that moment? Why not other ongoing mechanics? Why not play out the rest of the turn order the rules say to go through? Why not resolve your blessings/maledictions that are going to expire on your next turn? It says they are in effect until then so why not? When does it tell us to stop?

...it stops when the game ends. We are told it ends when particular circumstances are found to be true. They are true as soon as the last enemy unit is destroyed. Anything you want to play out after that has no effect on that as the game is only permitted to end once. The state of things when the game ends determines either a winner or a draw.

My assertion that the game is over as soon as one player is wiped out is completely in line with the stated victory conditions. It is in fact listed right along with the opponent conceding. In other words, it has RAW backing.

Your argument that the game somehow cannot end in the middle of an initiative step on the other hand seems entirely made up. You have no RAW or even RAI to reference to even hint that this is the case. Please stop fabricating ideas and asserting them in a 'well it doesn't say it's not this way' manor. If you have some rule to cite that backs you argument I'd be happy to hear it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
So then, using this exact same argument, you would say that the vehicle would score the kill first for First Blood ?

The rules state that what happens at a certain I Step is simultaneous. If it is simultaneous then you cannot table someone before then table you...

They state "If both sides have models with the same Initiative, their attacks are made simultaneously".

Are you saying 'Explodes!' is an attack? Does it have an initiative value? Is it a CC or Ranged attack? Who is making this attack since the vehicle is already destroyed?...

No. This is just a mechanic that happens to cause hits. No more an attack than a dangerous terrain check is. By the time "Explodes!' happens, as RAW says, the vehicle is destroyed already.

Fragile wrote:
The scenario above was that a walker vs a chaplain in CC. The walker was destroyed and the explosion killed the chaplain. The I Step is not resolved until everything is done.

Once the walker becomes a wreck CC is over and done. You are no longer bound by that.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The scenario above was that a walker vs a chaplain in CC. The walker was destroyed and the explosion killed the chaplain. The I Step is not resolved until everything is done.

Once the walker becomes a wreck CC is over and done. You are no longer bound by that.

If that was the case, the chaplain could have consolidated away, potentially out of the explodes range.