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I seem to remember some regular 40K formation that used a baneblade super heavy tank in a regular (non-apocalypse) game, just wondering if I could use that unknown formation in the current edition?

This situation could be used in friendly games, but seeing how super heavies are apoc. vehicles, legaly its a no.

That is called Spearhead, which lets you bring a super-heavy to a normal game of 40K (I believe there is a restriction on what type of super-heavies). However, this is an optional ruleset and as such, requires the permission of your opponent. Basically, it boils down to this....if your opponent doesn't mind getting stomped by a super-heavy in a normal game, then you're good.

 jy2 wrote:
if your opponent doesn't mind stomping you because you spent a ton of points on a single tank

Fixed that for you. I wouldn't want to play against a titan in a normal game since they're blatantly overpowered to sell the model, but taking a Macharius/Malcador/etc in a normal game is just handing your opponent a huge advantage.

I don't think you can say a Titan is overpowered when every superheavy is overpowered compared to standard 40k units. When everything's overpowered, nothing is.

To answer the OP's question, aside from a few specific scenarios, you can't generally use a superheavy in a standard 40k game. There's a Battle Mission involving Marines and a Thunderhawk, but if you're cool with using alternate scenarios you may as well write your own.

Thanks for the responces, but if "spearhead" is in fact a "legal" formation, then how could an opponent refuse it?

 sub-zero wrote:
Thanks for the responces, but if "spearhead" is in fact a "legal" formation, then how could an opponent refuse it?

Because Spearhead is an expansion like Apocalypse or Planetstrike that adds new rules to the game, new missions, etc. To use it both players have to agree to play an expansion game, you can't just take a single unit out of it and bring it into normal 40k.

 Brother SRM wrote:
I don't think you can say a Titan is overpowered when every superheavy is overpowered compared to standard 40k units. When everything's overpowered, nothing is.

That's completely wrong. Most superheavies are actually pretty weak. My poor Malcador, for example, is worse by far than its points in Leman Russes and I would never take one in a competitive game. Even the Baneblade-size superheavies aren't all that bad, their huge pie plates are kind of wasted when you can spread out properly and avoid letting it hit more than one unit at a time, and they die just as fast as their points in normal tanks against drop pod melta. You don't really get game-breaking overpowered rules until you get to titans, which make any non-titan superheavies look pathetic in comparison.

 sub-zero wrote:
Thanks for the responces, but if "spearhead" is in fact a "legal" formation, then how could an opponent refuse it?

Yes, because in addition to the points that Peregrine brought up, it was also for 5th edition.

ahhhh I see now, I didn't know that spearhead was an expansion. Shame that regular 40K doesn't allow super heavies....

 Brother SRM wrote:
I don't think you can say a Titan is overpowered when every superheavy is overpowered compared to standard 40k units. When everything's overpowered, nothing is.

To answer the OP's question, aside from a few specific scenarios, you can't generally use a superheavy in a standard 40k game. There's a Battle Mission involving Marines and a Thunderhawk, but if you're cool with using alternate scenarios you may as well write your own.

The Malcador, Macharius, and any other superheavy without D weapons disagrees with you.

A baneblade is just one zoanthrope brood in a can away from annihilation after all.

 sub-zero wrote:
ahhhh I see now, I didn't know that spearhead was an expansion. Shame that regular 40K doesn't allow super heavies....

It isn't balanced. It would be a shame if the game did. But just ask your opponent if he's cool with it, or play a small game of Apoc.

I'd be up for playing FW superheavies as you don't see them here too often

tgjensen wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:
ahhhh I see now, I didn't know that spearhead was an expansion. Shame that regular 40K doesn't allow super heavies....

It isn't balanced. It would be a shame if the game did. But just ask your opponent if he's cool with it, or play a small game of Apoc.

Any superheavy without D strength weapons is just a points sink, and even then if it's not a titan it's usally still less than optimal.

 Kain wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
I don't think you can say a Titan is overpowered when every superheavy is overpowered compared to standard 40k units. When everything's overpowered, nothing is.

To answer the OP's question, aside from a few specific scenarios, you can't generally use a superheavy in a standard 40k game. There's a Battle Mission involving Marines and a Thunderhawk, but if you're cool with using alternate scenarios you may as well write your own.

The Malcador, Macharius, and any other superheavy without D weapons disagrees with you.

A baneblade is just one zoanthrope brood in a can away from annihilation after all.

The Macharius is fine; for just over the price of 2 Leman Russes you get the firepower of 2 Leman Russes, the durability of 2 Leman Russes and you ignore all damage results. The Macharius Vanquisher however is garbage (a weak long range melta shot in a game with D weapons is a waste of times) which is a shame as the model is awesome. The Malcador is a bit weird and even though it's absurdly cheap for a super heavy, it also doesn't really do anything. Certainly there's some weak super heavies, which is a shame. The most disappointing IMO is the Macharius Omega which, despite looking awesome, is just bad.

However, the last part of that statement is just wrong. Not every Super Heavy wants to hunt tanks/MCs and D weapons do less than you'd think against big targets. Effectively, it has a weak version of instant death that works on things if you roll a 6, similar to a distortion weapon. The rest of the time you average 3 wounds/HP, which is a third of most super heavies HP and half most MCs wounds. Against normal vehicles it's substantially more powerful which is odd, you'd have thought they'd just make it the same as for everything else but there you go. On average it wrecks vehicles anyway so I guess the logic was they wanted people to remove them from the board so that if you spent points on bringing them back you'd have the models spare without having to have x more tanks than you could feasibly use.

Any superheavy without D strength weapons is just a points sink, and even then if it's not a titan it's usally still less than optimal.

This is even less true. On the whole, Super Heavies have a higher output to make up for the fact they can't realistically avoid blast weapons. It's one of those design choices where you want super heavies to fight each other, so you make it so the only thing that can cost efficiently kill one is either a tailored selection of models or another super heavy. If you give them Str D then yes, you've given them a high damage output but you've also made it so that your damage output against most models is actually worse than the other choices you can take. The Shadowsword, for example, is bad unless you're lacking good super heavy AT. That's because a single large blast for 455 points is bad, even if it can one shot a tank or hurt a bunch of guys really well - think about what else that would get. Titans, however, have a lot of Str D. So, what do they go after? Here's a hint - the big things, not infantry. The big things can kill you. The infantry, unless it's dropping in your face in which case you're already dead, generally can't - the exception to that rule is Necrons of course. So you're spending at least 720 points so you can kill other super heavies which cost far less. On top of that, if anything gets you in combat, it's a total waste, so they need to stand at the back. That in turn makes them easily neutered with blind barrage/night fighting for at least one turn. Further, their models are so large they are easy to fire at without them getting any save, they're super weak to drop pod melta and they're awful at getting objectives. They are literally just SH/GC killers and you'd be a fool to make them do anything else unless the opponent has no SH/GCs because they will kill you in return. Even then, flyers will ruin your day because you literally cannot hurt them. Plus, they're not even the most cost effective Str D in the game, the honour of which goes to either the Pylon or Lynx.

The people who've played Apoc a lot know this. What tends to happen is they'll take formations/assets that give them Str D and then Super Heavies with good anti-infantry. That then gives 2 benefits - the formations are usually easier to field as people tend to already have the modelse, plus their SHs which are worth VP are less of a target. It's a bit of a newb trap - why WOULDN'T you take the huge killy thing? Well, because it can be stopped so easily it's unreal and you're yielding 1 VP to field it (net 2 if you spend another to bring it back in new Apoc, 3 if it's then killed again). The game winning units tend to be small units of infantry who hide near objectives - by the time they need to die, most opposition has been ruined, all Str D is usually gone and people don't have the guns to stop them. After all, who would fire at the tiny unit of guys that probably costs ~60 points with high Str weapons when the other person can roll over you with their SHs? It's not like you really have a choice of what to shoot if both sides bring Titans/Titan killers - one of them MUST die because they do so much damage to everything. Yet, if your SHs don't threaten their Titans, what do they shoot? The SHs which yield 1 VP or the formations which are worth nothing except their continued survival? Bear in mind that as Str D averages ~3.7 HP and most super heavies have 9, that's a lot of shooting to silence a gun that can't hurt you. Most will try to go for the formations which is the real trap, as then their Titans die and the other person has both SHs and most of their models, even if they lose their Str D.

Unfit for normal games, sure but let's not pretend that being able to kill any given tank/squad for 720 points is in any way actually impressive. It'd worry me more if it couldn't given that its expected lifespan is 1 turn with so much else on the table.

Some scenarios can make for balanced superheavy-use, like having to stop the superheavy escaping off one of the board edges, that sort of thing. ambushing a convoy could be an awesome scenario to play, but you'd need to plan ahead, so one side has superheavies in a line that have to make it off the other board edge, and the ambushed has a smaller army of pure tank-hunting stuff. so one side has more points and the other is tailored.