Switch Theme:

using a superheavy in a 40k game  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Leesburg, FL

I seem to remember some regular 40K formation that used a baneblade super heavy tank in a regular (non-apocalypse) game, just wondering if I could use that unknown formation in the current edition?

It is the 3rd Millennium. For more than a hundred months Games Workshop has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Nottingham. It is the foremost of wargames by the will of the neckbeards, and master of a million tabletops by the might of their inexhaustible wallets. It is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with business strategies from the early Industrial Revolution Age. It is the Carrion Lord of the wargaming scene for whom a thousand veteran players are sacrificed every day, so that it may never truly die. Yet even in its deathless state, GW continues its eternal vigilance. Mighty battleforce starter-sets cross the online-store-infested miasma of the internet, the only route between distant countries, their way lit by a draconian retail trade-agreement, the legal manifestation of the GW's will. Vast armies of lawyers give battle in GW's name on uncounted websites. Greatest amongst its soldiers are the Guardians of the IP, the Legal Team, bio-engineered super-donkey-caves. Their comrades in arms are legion: the writing team and countless untested rulebooks, the ever vigilant redshirts, and the writers of White Dwarf, to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from other games, their own incompetence, Based Chinaman - and worse. To support Games Workshop in such times is to spend untold billions. It is to support the cruelest and most dickish company imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of sales discounts and Warhammer Fantasy Battle, for so much has been dropped, never to be re-published again. Forget the promise of cheaper digital content and caring about the fanbase, for in the GW HQ there is only profit-seeking, Space Marines and Sigmarines. There is no fun amongst the hobby shops, only an eternity of raging and spending, and the laughter of former employees who left GW to join better companies. 
   
Made in us
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






This situation could be used in friendly games, but seeing how super heavies are apoc. vehicles, legaly its a no.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

That is called Spearhead, which lets you bring a super-heavy to a normal game of 40K (I believe there is a restriction on what type of super-heavies). However, this is an optional ruleset and as such, requires the permission of your opponent. Basically, it boils down to this....if your opponent doesn't mind getting stomped by a super-heavy in a normal game, then you're good.



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 jy2 wrote:
if your opponent doesn't mind stomping you because you spent a ton of points on a single tank


Fixed that for you. I wouldn't want to play against a titan in a normal game since they're blatantly overpowered to sell the model, but taking a Macharius/Malcador/etc in a normal game is just handing your opponent a huge advantage.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Boston, MA

I don't think you can say a Titan is overpowered when every superheavy is overpowered compared to standard 40k units. When everything's overpowered, nothing is.

To answer the OP's question, aside from a few specific scenarios, you can't generally use a superheavy in a standard 40k game. There's a Battle Mission involving Marines and a Thunderhawk, but if you're cool with using alternate scenarios you may as well write your own.

Check out my Youtube channel!
 
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Leesburg, FL

Thanks for the responces, but if "spearhead" is in fact a "legal" formation, then how could an opponent refuse it?

It is the 3rd Millennium. For more than a hundred months Games Workshop has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Nottingham. It is the foremost of wargames by the will of the neckbeards, and master of a million tabletops by the might of their inexhaustible wallets. It is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with business strategies from the early Industrial Revolution Age. It is the Carrion Lord of the wargaming scene for whom a thousand veteran players are sacrificed every day, so that it may never truly die. Yet even in its deathless state, GW continues its eternal vigilance. Mighty battleforce starter-sets cross the online-store-infested miasma of the internet, the only route between distant countries, their way lit by a draconian retail trade-agreement, the legal manifestation of the GW's will. Vast armies of lawyers give battle in GW's name on uncounted websites. Greatest amongst its soldiers are the Guardians of the IP, the Legal Team, bio-engineered super-donkey-caves. Their comrades in arms are legion: the writing team and countless untested rulebooks, the ever vigilant redshirts, and the writers of White Dwarf, to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from other games, their own incompetence, Based Chinaman - and worse. To support Games Workshop in such times is to spend untold billions. It is to support the cruelest and most dickish company imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of sales discounts and Warhammer Fantasy Battle, for so much has been dropped, never to be re-published again. Forget the promise of cheaper digital content and caring about the fanbase, for in the GW HQ there is only profit-seeking, Space Marines and Sigmarines. There is no fun amongst the hobby shops, only an eternity of raging and spending, and the laughter of former employees who left GW to join better companies. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 sub-zero wrote:
Thanks for the responces, but if "spearhead" is in fact a "legal" formation, then how could an opponent refuse it?


Because Spearhead is an expansion like Apocalypse or Planetstrike that adds new rules to the game, new missions, etc. To use it both players have to agree to play an expansion game, you can't just take a single unit out of it and bring it into normal 40k.

 Brother SRM wrote:
I don't think you can say a Titan is overpowered when every superheavy is overpowered compared to standard 40k units. When everything's overpowered, nothing is.


That's completely wrong. Most superheavies are actually pretty weak. My poor Malcador, for example, is worse by far than its points in Leman Russes and I would never take one in a competitive game. Even the Baneblade-size superheavies aren't all that bad, their huge pie plates are kind of wasted when you can spread out properly and avoid letting it hit more than one unit at a time, and they die just as fast as their points in normal tanks against drop pod melta. You don't really get game-breaking overpowered rules until you get to titans, which make any non-titan superheavies look pathetic in comparison.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 sub-zero wrote:
Thanks for the responces, but if "spearhead" is in fact a "legal" formation, then how could an opponent refuse it?

Yes, because in addition to the points that Peregrine brought up, it was also for 5th edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/28 01:25:13


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Leesburg, FL

ahhhh I see now, I didn't know that spearhead was an expansion. Shame that regular 40K doesn't allow super heavies....

It is the 3rd Millennium. For more than a hundred months Games Workshop has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Nottingham. It is the foremost of wargames by the will of the neckbeards, and master of a million tabletops by the might of their inexhaustible wallets. It is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with business strategies from the early Industrial Revolution Age. It is the Carrion Lord of the wargaming scene for whom a thousand veteran players are sacrificed every day, so that it may never truly die. Yet even in its deathless state, GW continues its eternal vigilance. Mighty battleforce starter-sets cross the online-store-infested miasma of the internet, the only route between distant countries, their way lit by a draconian retail trade-agreement, the legal manifestation of the GW's will. Vast armies of lawyers give battle in GW's name on uncounted websites. Greatest amongst its soldiers are the Guardians of the IP, the Legal Team, bio-engineered super-donkey-caves. Their comrades in arms are legion: the writing team and countless untested rulebooks, the ever vigilant redshirts, and the writers of White Dwarf, to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from other games, their own incompetence, Based Chinaman - and worse. To support Games Workshop in such times is to spend untold billions. It is to support the cruelest and most dickish company imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of sales discounts and Warhammer Fantasy Battle, for so much has been dropped, never to be re-published again. Forget the promise of cheaper digital content and caring about the fanbase, for in the GW HQ there is only profit-seeking, Space Marines and Sigmarines. There is no fun amongst the hobby shops, only an eternity of raging and spending, and the laughter of former employees who left GW to join better companies. 
   
Made in id
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Brother SRM wrote:
I don't think you can say a Titan is overpowered when every superheavy is overpowered compared to standard 40k units. When everything's overpowered, nothing is.

To answer the OP's question, aside from a few specific scenarios, you can't generally use a superheavy in a standard 40k game. There's a Battle Mission involving Marines and a Thunderhawk, but if you're cool with using alternate scenarios you may as well write your own.

The Malcador, Macharius, and any other superheavy without D weapons disagrees with you.

A baneblade is just one zoanthrope brood in a can away from annihilation after all.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




 sub-zero wrote:
ahhhh I see now, I didn't know that spearhead was an expansion. Shame that regular 40K doesn't allow super heavies....


It isn't balanced. It would be a shame if the game did. But just ask your opponent if he's cool with it, or play a small game of Apoc.
   
Made in au
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





I'd be up for playing FW superheavies as you don't see them here too often

"Treat them with honour, my Brothers. Not because they will bring us victory this day, but because their fate will one day be ours." 
   
Made in id
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

tgjensen wrote:
 sub-zero wrote:
ahhhh I see now, I didn't know that spearhead was an expansion. Shame that regular 40K doesn't allow super heavies....


It isn't balanced. It would be a shame if the game did. But just ask your opponent if he's cool with it, or play a small game of Apoc.
Any superheavy without D strength weapons is just a points sink, and even then if it's not a titan it's usally still less than optimal.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer




 Kain wrote:
 Brother SRM wrote:
I don't think you can say a Titan is overpowered when every superheavy is overpowered compared to standard 40k units. When everything's overpowered, nothing is.

To answer the OP's question, aside from a few specific scenarios, you can't generally use a superheavy in a standard 40k game. There's a Battle Mission involving Marines and a Thunderhawk, but if you're cool with using alternate scenarios you may as well write your own.

The Malcador, Macharius, and any other superheavy without D weapons disagrees with you.

A baneblade is just one zoanthrope brood in a can away from annihilation after all.

The Macharius is fine; for just over the price of 2 Leman Russes you get the firepower of 2 Leman Russes, the durability of 2 Leman Russes and you ignore all damage results. The Macharius Vanquisher however is garbage (a weak long range melta shot in a game with D weapons is a waste of times) which is a shame as the model is awesome. The Malcador is a bit weird and even though it's absurdly cheap for a super heavy, it also doesn't really do anything. Certainly there's some weak super heavies, which is a shame. The most disappointing IMO is the Macharius Omega which, despite looking awesome, is just bad.

However, the last part of that statement is just wrong. Not every Super Heavy wants to hunt tanks/MCs and D weapons do less than you'd think against big targets. Effectively, it has a weak version of instant death that works on things if you roll a 6, similar to a distortion weapon. The rest of the time you average 3 wounds/HP, which is a third of most super heavies HP and half most MCs wounds. Against normal vehicles it's substantially more powerful which is odd, you'd have thought they'd just make it the same as for everything else but there you go. On average it wrecks vehicles anyway so I guess the logic was they wanted people to remove them from the board so that if you spent points on bringing them back you'd have the models spare without having to have x more tanks than you could feasibly use.

Any superheavy without D strength weapons is just a points sink, and even then if it's not a titan it's usally still less than optimal.

This is even less true. On the whole, Super Heavies have a higher output to make up for the fact they can't realistically avoid blast weapons. It's one of those design choices where you want super heavies to fight each other, so you make it so the only thing that can cost efficiently kill one is either a tailored selection of models or another super heavy. If you give them Str D then yes, you've given them a high damage output but you've also made it so that your damage output against most models is actually worse than the other choices you can take. The Shadowsword, for example, is bad unless you're lacking good super heavy AT. That's because a single large blast for 455 points is bad, even if it can one shot a tank or hurt a bunch of guys really well - think about what else that would get. Titans, however, have a lot of Str D. So, what do they go after? Here's a hint - the big things, not infantry. The big things can kill you. The infantry, unless it's dropping in your face in which case you're already dead, generally can't - the exception to that rule is Necrons of course. So you're spending at least 720 points so you can kill other super heavies which cost far less. On top of that, if anything gets you in combat, it's a total waste, so they need to stand at the back. That in turn makes them easily neutered with blind barrage/night fighting for at least one turn. Further, their models are so large they are easy to fire at without them getting any save, they're super weak to drop pod melta and they're awful at getting objectives. They are literally just SH/GC killers and you'd be a fool to make them do anything else unless the opponent has no SH/GCs because they will kill you in return. Even then, flyers will ruin your day because you literally cannot hurt them. Plus, they're not even the most cost effective Str D in the game, the honour of which goes to either the Pylon or Lynx.

The people who've played Apoc a lot know this. What tends to happen is they'll take formations/assets that give them Str D and then Super Heavies with good anti-infantry. That then gives 2 benefits - the formations are usually easier to field as people tend to already have the modelse, plus their SHs which are worth VP are less of a target. It's a bit of a newb trap - why WOULDN'T you take the huge killy thing? Well, because it can be stopped so easily it's unreal and you're yielding 1 VP to field it (net 2 if you spend another to bring it back in new Apoc, 3 if it's then killed again). The game winning units tend to be small units of infantry who hide near objectives - by the time they need to die, most opposition has been ruined, all Str D is usually gone and people don't have the guns to stop them. After all, who would fire at the tiny unit of guys that probably costs ~60 points with high Str weapons when the other person can roll over you with their SHs? It's not like you really have a choice of what to shoot if both sides bring Titans/Titan killers - one of them MUST die because they do so much damage to everything. Yet, if your SHs don't threaten their Titans, what do they shoot? The SHs which yield 1 VP or the formations which are worth nothing except their continued survival? Bear in mind that as Str D averages ~3.7 HP and most super heavies have 9, that's a lot of shooting to silence a gun that can't hurt you. Most will try to go for the formations which is the real trap, as then their Titans die and the other person has both SHs and most of their models, even if they lose their Str D.

Unfit for normal games, sure but let's not pretend that being able to kill any given tank/squad for 720 points is in any way actually impressive. It'd worry me more if it couldn't given that its expected lifespan is 1 turn with so much else on the table.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Some scenarios can make for balanced superheavy-use, like having to stop the superheavy escaping off one of the board edges, that sort of thing. ambushing a convoy could be an awesome scenario to play, but you'd need to plan ahead, so one side has superheavies in a line that have to make it off the other board edge, and the ambushed has a smaller army of pure tank-hunting stuff. so one side has more points and the other is tailored.

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: