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I am reading where Erebus is taking Horus to the geno vaults beneath the Himalayan peaks.

Erebus is saying that the Primarchs were forged by the power of the warp and that the Primarchs were scattered because of the Emperor and not Chaos. If the emperor created the warp vortex that scattered the primarchs, why did the Custodian Guards assault Horus in the laboratory saying that he was responsible for the warp storm? I know this is an illusion in Horus' mind but trying to understand the passage in the book.

Yeah... I didn't really get that either.

The vortex was created by the chaos gods to snatch away the developing Primarchs to plant the seeds of heresy, and as a feth you to the big E for pulling out of the pact he made with them to create his Generals that would lead his armies in the coming crusade.
Of course we can't always believe what chaos is saying or showing us as they tend to lie (like pretending to be someone who is dead) or change the facts to better suit their version of events.

Unfortunately none of the HH writers have gotten round to telling the Emperors side of it (as far as I know. I've only read to the outcast dead) so we may never know whay truly happened in the gene vaults.

All I know is chaos is a dirty liar and not to be trusted. FETH YOU CHAOS GODS! Wait, is that rain?

Why did the Custodies that came in blame Horus for what was going on while the Emperor was visibly creating the vortex?

 amrogers3 wrote:
Why did the Custodies that came in blame Horus for what was going on while the Emperor was visibly creating the vortex?

Wait, I may have to re read, but the Emperor wasn't creating the vortex, definitely not visibly. I mean, a CHAOS SPACE MARINE says that the Emperor was doing it, but gee thats not very trustworthy.

Agreed. However, Chaos was showing him what happened in the past. Why would Horus be accosted by a Custodies if he wasn't even there when it happened?

The passage is a bit confusing.

I haven't read False Gods. But in The First Heretic a bunch of Word Bearers are taken back to the same laboratory by a daemon, at the same time, to see the Primarchs get stolen by the Chaos gods. It is mentioned that they are actually there, but kept concealed by the daemon's powers. One of them even comments that he heard Horus there, though he didn't see him. I assume Horus was actually there as well if he interacted with Custodes.

You can't trust Chaos. They tell you what they need to tell you to advance their plots, that's all. Whether it is a lie or the truth.

Does anyone not think that horus and erebus "time traveled" back to that point. And that the vortex created was in fact them entering and leaving the chamber. The custodes were attacking them because they were intruders, and its not like the guards would even know who horus is at that time because he is just a test tube baby in the chamber.
I have only read up until Fulgrim so I can't say anything about the events in first heretic.

 ravenousork25 wrote:
Does anyone not think that horus and erebus "time traveled" back to that point. And that the vortex created was in fact them entering and leaving the chamber. The custodes were attacking them because they were intruders, and its not like the guards would even know who horus is at that time because he is just a test tube baby in the chamber.
I have only read up until Fulgrim so I can't say anything about the events in first heretic.

You are making a lot of sense. That would explain most of that particular event in the book. What about the sighting of the Emperor though? Why would Horus see him there? Another Chaos illusion?

I don't think they "time traveled" at all. I think the best lies are mostly truth and chaos is REALLY good at twisting the truth and blending it with lies. I don't think ANYTHING they show Horus can be trusted. The way I see it is that part of the book is showing how Horus falls to Chaos, period, everything they show him is fake, it may be 99% accurate but they basically showed him a movie, a really interactive movie, in his head, virtually...

The "they showed him a movie" idea is a novel one, but it wasn't "just a movie" since the primarchs did get scattered throughout the galaxy via a warp rift. I'm firmly in the camp that the very act of Erebus and Horus going back to witness that event caused the warp rift and scattered the primarchs.

the mind has a habit of making something that is not real, real so that you feel it (pla-ce-bo effect). He never left the temple where he was left by his sons who would of noticed anything amiss.
As for Horus and Ebrus creating the rift, I say no. It formed after they had been in the vault for a time and not when they got there. They didn't appear in the vault but in the massive lab outside. Plus Ebrus says that it's the chaos gods claiming what is rightfully theirs (implying that it's them that is making the rift) since they are more the Primarchs fathers than the Emperor.

As with most that comes from Chaos, it's smoke and mirrors, lies and half truths.

There is a story in Mark of Calth about the Erebus learning the arts of "rift travel" (that's the best way I can describe it). Where he cuts a tear in reality, and moves through time and space. Our good buddy Oll Persson gets a hold of one of these daggers in a later story in the book and uses it to escape Calth with a few other survivors. While traveling through the rifts they are also traveling through time and visiting places of major battles that Oll had been a part of in his past.

So with that being said, it is very plausible that Horus and Erebus did actually travel through time, but it has been a while since I've read False Gods and I don't know the exact description of how they go back to the laboratory, but if Erebus is cutting holes in time and space, it is possible that they did physically go back, but I still believe there is a level of half-truths and whole-lies as Chaos is wont to do.

 Alfndrate wrote:
There is a story in Mark of Calth about the Erebus learning the arts of "rift travel" (that's the best way I can describe it). Where he cuts a tear in reality, and moves through time and space. Our good buddy Oll Persson gets a hold of one of these daggers in a later story in the book and uses it to escape Calth with a few other survivors. While traveling through the rifts they are also traveling through time and visiting places of major battles that Oll had been a part of in his past.

So with that being said, it is very plausible that Horus and Erebus did actually travel through time, but it has been a while since I've read False Gods and I don't know the exact description of how they go back to the laboratory, but if Erebus is cutting holes in time and space, it is possible that they did physically go back, but I still believe there is a level of half-truths and whole-lies as Chaos is wont to do.

I think Erebus is effectively dead at this point in time as the Davinite priestess had to cut his throat as part of the ritual, that and clean up the pig.

That is interesting though and I didn't link the instance with the Athame and the visions to Horus and the Word Bearers together. I guess there are different methods of this some where you do travel and can influence the past and others where it's like being in a dream.

It gets quite confusing in places. So Ingethel takes the Word Bearers back in time, they cut the pipe to the tank (or whatever it is, can't remember exactly) and the warp rift happens, if they had decided that they weren't going to cut the pipe, would the Primarchs have been scattered? Was it the Word Bearers direct influence that allowed that to happen, or were they just being shown and allowed to do what they needed to to get them on board? Same with Horus? See, I can't imagine that the Word Bearers influence was what caused the rift and Chaos couldn't take that chance if they had decided that they still adored the Emperor.

Chaos does seem to rely heavily on acts of betrayal to get things done, perhaps it's the act of betrayal that seals a deal, Istvaan, Calth, Horus, all have elements of it.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I think Erebus is effectively dead at this point in time as the Davinite priestess had to cut his throat as part of the ritual, that and clean up the pig.

I had forgotten that, but by that point (using the story in Mark of Calth), Erebus has near perfect control over using the Athame to travel long distances and time, considering that he mentions getting a specific sword at the end of that story. And I thought the ritual allowed Erebus to essentially enter Horus's mind as a presence of the warp, which means he could easily have manipulated the surrounding warp to rip a whole as he does with the Athame. Though this whole premise falls apart when one considers how well Daemons are injured by it. I'm just spitballin' ideas here. It's 40k, anything is possible

That is interesting though and I didn't link the instance with the Athame and the visions to Horus and the Word Bearers together. I guess there are different methods of this some where you do travel and can influence the past and others where it's like being in a dream.

It gets quite confusing in places. So Ingethel takes the Word Bearers back in time, they cut the pipe to the tank (or whatever it is, can't remember exactly) and the warp rift happens, if they had decided that they weren't going to cut the pipe, would the Primarchs have been scattered? Was it the Word Bearers direct influence that allowed that to happen, or were they just being shown and allowed to do what they needed to to get them on board? Same with Horus? See, I can't imagine that the Word Bearers influence was what caused the rift and Chaos couldn't take that chance if they had decided that they still adored the Emperor.

Chaos does seem to rely heavily on acts of betrayal to get things done, perhaps it's the act of betrayal that seals a deal, Istvaan, Calth, Horus, all have elements of it.

I agree that betrayal is a big proponent of Chaos's tricks. It almost seems like a tossback to the idea of Satan/the Devil. Offers and promises of whatever you want, if you simply give up x. X could be turn against the Emperor, turn against your brother primarchs and their legions, turn against God, etc... I think option of betrayal has to be left up to the will of the person and not the Chaos Gods, but the Gods can make it as tempting as they want. It damns the soul perverts them spiritually and physically.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I think Erebus is effectively dead at this point in time as the Davinite priestess had to cut his throat as part of the ritual, that and clean up the pig.

I had forgotten that, but by that point (using the story in Mark of Calth), Erebus has near perfect control over using the Athame to travel long distances and time, considering that he mentions getting a specific sword at the end of that story. And I thought the ritual allowed Erebus to essentially enter Horus's mind as a presence of the warp, which means he could easily have manipulated the surrounding warp to rip a whole as he does with the Athame. Though this whole premise falls apart when one considers how well Daemons are injured by it. I'm just spitballin' ideas here. It's 40k, anything is possible

Indeed sir

Or possible they were just present in the warp at the same time, kinda spirit plain, I dunno, it's awfully complicated isn't it

The issue with it being an caused by Athame as well, is that they are created from shards of the Anathame. Having the Athame's created at this point would be a bit tricky seeing as how Horus has only recently been wounded by it and it is either in the hands of the Apothacary, I think it was Varren, the Son of Horus bod, or Fabius. But from what it looks like in Mark of Calth, he went back to reclaim the Anathame from some point in time, so could have had an Athame if he had handed it to his past self.

MIND BLOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I think Erebus is effectively dead at this point in time as the Davinite priestess had to cut his throat as part of the ritual, that and clean up the pig.

I had forgotten that, but by that point (using the story in Mark of Calth), Erebus has near perfect control over using the Athame to travel long distances and time, considering that he mentions getting a specific sword at the end of that story. And I thought the ritual allowed Erebus to essentially enter Horus's mind as a presence of the warp, which means he could easily have manipulated the surrounding warp to rip a whole as he does with the Athame. Though this whole premise falls apart when one considers how well Daemons are injured by it. I'm just spitballin' ideas here. It's 40k, anything is possible

Indeed sir

Or possible they were just present in the warp at the same time, kinda spirit plain, I dunno, it's awfully complicated isn't it

The issue with it being an caused by Athame as well, is that they are created from shards of the Anathame. Having the Athame's created at this point would be a bit tricky seeing as how Horus has only recently been wounded by it and it is either in the hands of the Apothacary, I think it was Varren, the Son of Horus bod, or Fabius. But from what it looks like in Mark of Calth, he went back to reclaim the Anathame from some point in time, so could have had an Athame if he had handed it to his past self.

MIND BLOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!

O.o Feth me you're right... I was reading up on the 8 Athames he had, and he gave one to 7 different Word Bearers, and missed the "and himself" but he gives an Athame to Criol Fowst who uses it to summon daemons. Though those 8 athames were forged after he stole the sword, but an "athame" is just a ceremonial dagger. Though in 40k it has the implications of being a chaos tainted ritual dagger, so it's very possible that While learning "all the secrets" from that Davinite Priestess on rift travel, he already had an athame in his possession, and used that to travel back to the Interex's planet and stole the sword. So essentially it could have been a basic ritualistic dagger that he had in his possession until after he could reclaim the sword and break it into the Shards of Erebus. At that point having 9 athames (his original and the 8 Shards) he gives his original athame to Fowst and then distributes 7 of the Shards to other Word Bearers.

Side note: What happened to the athame from the short story in Mark of Calth "Athame"? I can't remember who came in possession of it in the 31st millennium.

I don't actually have Mark of Calth yet so I can't answer that sorry.



But maybe you're right, as that would make 9, maybe the one given to Fowst was a spare of Erebus, the one created previously allowing him to travel back initially. But then he would still have to use it to go back ...

This is making my head hurt.

It seems like it's overly complicating it if you ask me as Erebus was already with the Luna Wolves at this point and was quite capable of going in and taking it from the Hall of Devices. Why burn everything and kill people if you could simply make a tear in reality and open up a rift when no one was around.

Edit: Added spoiler tags

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I don't actually have Mark of Calth yet so I can't answer that sorry.

From Angel Exterminatus we know that the Athames came from the Anathame as Fabius mentions it, saying something along the lines of that Word Bearer he didn't like made shavings from it.

Well, no one seems to like Erebus, and the "Shards of Erebus" goes back and forth with Erebus learning how to use his athames "in the past" (at the time of the story) and crafting them and giving them out to the other 7 Word Bearers "in the present" (before Calth). And there is a story involving the Ultramarines where Ventris gets a knife from Ventanus's tomb that M'Kar recognizes as a Shard of Erebus, which lines up with Ventanus using a knife to kill a daemon during the Battle of Calth (can't remember if it happened in KNF or Mark of Calth).

But maybe you're right, as that would make 9, maybe the one given to Fowst was a spare of Erebus, the one created previously allowing him to travel back initially. But then he would still have to use it to go back ...

The shards were created before the Battle of Calth, so Erebus would have had his initial athame that he used to learn the "immaterium sidestep" from the Davinite priestess (regardless of when this happened). What could have happened after he learned the sidestep, he could have taken the Anathame from wherever it resided after Horus's fall to Chaos and stolen it from that point in time.

It seems like it's overly complicating it if you ask me as Erebus was already with the Luna Wolves at this point and was quite capable of going in and taking it from the Hall of Devices. Why burn everything and kill people if you could simply make a tear in reality and open up a rift when no one was around.

Why burn everything? Because Chaos is begin to grow. Assuming he snuck in and stole it with the sidestep, Erebus would have missed a perfect opportunity to not only destroy a race that knew what had been stolen, but possibly how it might be reversed. By being overt in his theft of the sword originally, Erebus's actions gave the Interex suspicions that Horus et al. might be servants of Chaos and would beset on them to destroy them, which seems corroborated by the fact that the Luna Wolves were confused when the initial attacks from the Interex broke out.

After Horus was corrupted, Fabius ganked the blade and gave it to Fulgrim, who apparently let Erebus take a few shards for his athames..

I'll go back and read Erebus's final lines from Shards of Erebus, but I'm fairly certain he mentions something about having to steal a sword.

I thought about that after I posted, it did take another potential threat to Chaos out of the equation and it is Erebus style.

I'll have to read MoC myself, without having a better understanding of it i'm still not certain as to how Erebus would have had or used an Athame during the ritual on Davin, I get the time travel, but there was no mention of it as far as I know.

I'll come back to the thread in about a year after they have released it in paperback

FYI: An "athame" as such is apparently just a ritual dagger. I have recently read "Know No Fear" andSo the Shards con be special athames made from the anathema.(Haven't read that book yet)
EDIT: double word
Edit2: sorry for the spoilertastic post :( had it stuck in my head that the thing had already been mentioned openly

I do recall that now that you mention it yes, thanks.

It just adds to the confusion though having so many Athames but only 9 Athames. Were the lesser Athames capable of the same Veil tearing as the greater ones, where did these ones come from?

Sorry, will add spoiler tags to the post as well. Hope I don't sour your experience to much.

I always fought mentally with this trip to the laboratory. The lab had the strongest Gellar field ever constructed and yet the daemon just waltzs in for a sight seeing tour. BS. Unless of course it was all a charade and were never really there ;-). I posted a discussion about this very instance some time ago. It can be found here; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/332323.page

KhornedBeef wrote:
FYI: An "athame" as such is apparently just a ritual dagger.

We've already covered this (see my post where I end the post with Side Note:....)

I have recently read "Know No Fear" and after Ventanus kills a daemon ( who i s btw Samus, who some of you should recognize ) with an athame, Sergeant Whats-his-name (Selaton or Gravius i think) shows him a full bag of those things (athames, not daemons) that they took from the enemy army/cultists, because everyone has one. They are of different fashion, possible DIY-versions of more powerful originals (note that Ventanus took his from a Word Bearer). So the Shards con be special athames made from the anathema.(Haven't read that book yet)
EDIT: double word

The Shards of Erebus have been "proven" to be from the Anathame that stabbed Horus. Fulgrim, who possess the blade currently, said that a Word Bearer he doesn't like took shavings from it. But what this doesn't solve is the time issue in the Shards of Erebus story from Mark of Calth where Erebus learns how to do this "immaterium sidestep" in relation to crafting the shards. One would have to assume he learned it before the part of the story where he gives the Athames to 7 Word Bearers takes place (he learns it in the story, but there are two plot lines of that story). So Erebus has this thing that allows him to travel great distances in seconds and disappear as quickly as he arrived. The only thing that gives credence to the sidestep being an internal power rather than a power granted by the Athame is that Oll Persson uses the athame from Criol Fowst to travel through time and space during the final story of Mark of Calth.

KhornedBeef wrote:
FYI: An "athame" as such is apparently just a ritual dagger. I have recently read "Know No Fear" and after Ventanus kills a daemon ( who i s btw Samus, who some of you should recognize ) with an athame, Sergeant Whats-his-name (Selaton or Gravius i think) shows him a full bag of those things (athames, not daemons) that they took from the enemy army/cultists, because everyone has one. They are of different fashion, possible DIY-versions of more powerful originals (note that Ventanus took his from a Word Bearer). So the Shards con be special athames made from the anathema.(Haven't read that book yet)
EDIT: double word

whoa, Dude! where's thespoiler tag. Some people haven't read this far. Post spoiler alert next time please.