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Alright, so I never really liked the venerable dreadnought, but I got one in a large group buy. So I am re-reading the entry and it is not looking very appetizing to me. It get 1 extra bs and ws, and gets the ability to re-roll glances and pens at the cost of 60 points. No doubt useful, but hardly seems to me worth it. You are spending over half of what another dread would cost on getting a one sixth better chance to hit when shooting and possibly a one sixth better chance when hitting, as well as being able to re-roll for pens and glancing.

In my mind: "Wanna know whats better than an additional one sixth chance of getting to hit and rerolling pens and glancing: paying 45 points to get an additional four sixths chance to hit, not getting hit by the pens and glancing that would hit the other one AND getting addition weapons."

That is how it plays out in my mind and the reason I did so as if it was in my mind is because my oppinions were in there and I didn't want to sound like I was stating facts.

So, why would someone take a venerable dread instead of the regular? And do these situations occur often? What army types do these situations occur in (ie. mech, fast attack, etc).
Is my thinking flawed?

ALSO: if it gets hit or penned or glanced and I get to re roll, do the pen or glance that is being re-rolled still strip an HP?

Thanks in advance!

In 5th it was a lot better, back when rolling on the damage table was the only way to kill tanks. As it is, they still serve as a stronger platform if you've filled up the other two elite slots already.

it also gets a better selection of weapons, doesn't it?

or you can sell it off

Waaaghpower wrote:
In 5th it was a lot better, back when rolling on the damage table was the only way to kill tanks.

Pretty much this. The ability to force re-rolls on the damage table increased their survivability a lot, and the price difference between the regular and venerable dreadnought in the older codexes still reflect this. With the introduction of hull points in 6th edition, they are only somewhat harder to kill in one shot, but are generally killed just as quickly due to hull point loss.

You'll note that in the Dark Angels codex, the price of Venerable Dreadnoughts has been lowered to reflect this change, and I expect any updates to the Space Marines and Grey Knights for 6th edition to mirror this.

actually Dark Angels had a 60 point upgrade in the old book. Right after 6e came out, the upgrade included a WS/BS upgrade

Ah yes, I didn't think about them in the context of the previous edition (I try not to look back on those good days when my army was not plauged by HP and my Shrike had a cool possy). Makes sense, I hope they FAQ the point value though or it'll be a while before I use this venerable dread.

And solofalcon, they get the same weapons as the regular dread, the ironclad dreadnought is the one that gets different weapons.

It's true, venerable dreads are kinda overpriced. However, in my opinion, very few models that you can't find a use for. I thought the same about sanguinary guard for a while, but once I got my tactics for them straight they were invaluable. I'm sure that a use can be found for the venerable.
As a BA player, I think that a Ven. dread would make a really good CQ combatant, the equivalent of a Baal pred. It would be not only better for soaking up the fire away from marines, but it could be get in the enemy's face faster, using a drop pod or a Stormraven. This would give bikers and assault marines time to get up close with relatively low casualties.

 Ryan_A wrote:
Makes sense, I hope they FAQ the point value though or it'll be a while before I use this venerable dread.

They have never repriced point values as certain wargear or units became overpriced or useless due to an edition change. But as the new Space Marine codex is only 1-2 months away from being updated, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 Redemption wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Makes sense, I hope they FAQ the point value though or it'll be a while before I use this venerable dread.

They have never repriced point values as certain wargear or units became overpriced or useless due to an edition change. But as the new Space Marine codex is only 1-2 months away from being updated, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I know they never reprice values on most of the wargear, its just it'll be a long time before the next Marine code....

How did I not hear about these rumors? Looked through the rumor thread and saw a couple of your posts redemtion.

I really hope they don't mess with my scoring "crimson fists" sternguard army like they messed up my *digs through old codex pile* "shrikes wing" Raven Guard army, or I'm ganna pack up my toys and go home.

Thanks for the info!

I don't think anyone's explicitly answered the rules question, so - you do still lose the Hull Points.

 Super Ready wrote:
I don't think anyone's explicitly answered the rules question, so - you do still lose the Hull Points.

WOW that is just terrible. Thank you for answering, I was just assuming you didn't lose HPs.

Thank you though.

I didn't think ven. dreads were worth the points back in 5th, and the change to 6th just made that worse. For both the reasons that you and others have given.

When would you want to take one? Well, if you are getting into CC, the extra WS might be worth it. The extra BS only really helps the non-TLd weapons. So the assault cannon, multi-melta, and plasma cannon. I'm not sure if it's worth reducing the scatter on the PC and inch though. ML and storm bolter for the off-hand. But if you take the ML, you drop the DCCW, so get a lot less use out of the WS upgrade.

So if you are dropping a MM dread, in a non vulcan list, it might be worth it to...spend those points and get an ironclad. But if you are a WYSWYG guy, and all you have is a AoBR dread with some extra purity seals glued on, it -might- be worth it.

A venerable dread with an assault cannon and DCCW(SB) walking up field supporting the troops might get some use out of it's upgrade.

You don't always have the spare elite slots to field two normal dreads in place of the one venerable one. And we can't just take a HQ to shuffle slots around, or play at 2,000 points to open up more...

One thing I have to give it, is that the kit looks awesome. And while from a rules standpoint, the options are the same, the kit is where the PC arm lives, if you want to field one. This may be what SoloFalcon was referring to with the more options comment. I've been tempted to pick one up for looks alone...

but would field it as a normal one

Black Templar Ven dread with TLLC and ML and tank hunter makes for a really nice tank popping platform.

Just to clarify: if you get hit by a glancing hit, you can't ask your opponent to reroll it. The rule states that you reroll the damage result, not the initial roll-to-pen.

So besides the BT version where you at least get a bonus rule, I would pretty much never field a Ven dread. They just don't bring enough to the table to justify the point cost.

If they had the option of coming with dual DCCW and dual HF, I would reconsider but they can't even do that.

I usually count mine (FW BT ven dread) as the Chaplain Dreadnought from FW to be able to bring a flamestorm cannon which is great to grill MEQs upon arrival in drop-pod.

Cheers.

As a DA player I love the upgrade. Put 2 of em next to a tech marine with a PFG. Have fun killing them!

The BS5 helps some guns much more than others, so at 60 points for the C:SM version make sure the guns you're taking take advantage of it.

 Redemption wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Makes sense, I hope they FAQ the point value though or it'll be a while before I use this venerable dread.

They have never repriced point values as certain wargear or units became overpriced or useless due to an edition change. But as the new Space Marine codex is only 1-2 months away from being updated, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

yep, i can see them dropping the price down to match or be near the DA codex one