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So as we know, the storyline for 40k has been largely stuck at the 13th Black Crusade for a couple of editions, with mainly information coming about the past (HH), or filling in information gaps about current activities.

I was wondering in what ways could the overall story be advanced, without completely unbalancing the universe, and also without jumping straight to the "time of ending," "wolftime," final battle, etc.

A few things came to mind:
- Chaos takes Cadia, giving them a foothold, and battles shift to planets near Cadia
- Orks take Armaggedon and battles shift similarly
- Establish a Necron empire somewhere in the galaxy. It'd be small, but you could make it interesting; maybe all Necrons nearby are going there and it's impenetrable
- Have yet another Hive Fleet crash into the galaxy, except this time make it the first wave of the supposed giant ball of Nids that's coming

Stuff like this.

But the biggest thing I was thinking about was what if a single Primarch came back into the picture. It would likely drastically change the way the Imperium, the Astartes, and everyone else ran things. Obviously, the ones still kicking (sort of) are Johnson (stasis in the Rock), Guilliman (stasis on Ultramar), Russ (drinking beer in the warp somewhere), Corax (warp somewhere), Vulkan (warp somewhere), and Khan (webway? Burning books for warmth in the Black Library?).

How would you see each of them changing the Imperium if one of them returned?

Guilliman probably would have the biggest impact, what with being the writer of the codex. Maybe a codex 2.0 designed around the new threats?
I don't know about Russ or Khan, they generally seemed too choppy to be strategic leaders. Good tacticians and awesome fighters, but I'm not sure how much their leadership would help the Imperium.
I'm not really sure about Johnson, Corax, or Vulkan, in terms of leading, and maybe that's why I have a gut feeling that they'd be the best, or at least most interesting to bring back.

Regardless of who though, it would likely improve the Imperium's standing somewhat, especially if one of the more organizer-like Primarchs came back (which is why I would let Chaos have Cadia, Orks Armaggedon, etc., to balance it out).


Also, there were some rumors that Dorn is still kicking as the Custodes leader, but I remember reading a thread on that and someone mentioning that if he didn't pop back up for the Vandire kerfuffle then he probably wasn't popping back up for anything, so I just assume he's dead.

Civil War in the imperium? New Primarch Loyal forces against Emp Loyal forces (but both not Chaos).

Agreed, it would likely cause an upheaval in Imperial politics as this return would likely not be the quietest of events. However - I can think of a couple of examples where it might not... Roboute or Rogal... those who fully recognised and agreed with the reasons for splitting Legions into Chapters and as such would just resume control of their original Chapter.

They still wouldn't be happy with the way the Imperium is but with the Emperor not going anywhere and otherwise not available for guidance, they could perhaps be convinced (I'm thinking by the Inquisition) to keep the status quo. If this were done, it may even give the Imperium a sudden advantage against its outside oppressors.

If someone like Russ or Khan returns, though...? Expect outrage followed by civil war.

More generally... for advancing the background you could have a specific Marine Chapter or Guard world being picked on, rather than the Imperium hitting "endtime" as a whole. There's precedent for this with the Ultramarines and the Tyranids, and Baal is set in the BA codex fluff as being on the cusp of a big Chaos attack. The Iron Warriors might launch a major offensive on the Imperial Fists, if Nazdreg's still kicking about (not sure on that one) he may want revenge on the Dark Angels, and goodness knows the Wolves have made plenty of enemies. Meanwhile a Guard world would be a good excuse for a new plastic range when they get their Codex update.

My vote goes to Johnson coming back. The secrets and lies would know no bounds. Plus he is a brilliant leader and he's not afraid to throw troops into the grinder if it served the bigger picture. As a bonus the whole fallen thing with his chapter and a long over due chat with Luther whos being held deep inside the rock. Also we will finally get to know what the feth Lord Cypher is up to.

Bring back Logar! Or failing that let us get back the primarch of the Death Guard

Well, I don't have the book, but doesn't the new DA Codex heavily imply that they are heading to Cadia and that Lion El'Jonson may wake up when they get there?

Also, remember that in the 40K universe communication is slow and unreliable. Were something like that to happen news of it would only get back to Earth very gradually. I think the High Lords would do everything they could to welcome him and try to get them on their side. The question is whether any Primarch would go along with the Imperium's status quo or turn his back on them.

If the former the High Lords would obviously be very happy. It might even lead to a new Crusade. If the latter I don't necessarily think there would be civil war, at least not straight away. I think the Primarch would decide to set up their own Ultramar-like private empire that would be allied with the Imperium. The Imperium wouldn't like a human enclave separate to itself existing, but would it be worth starting yet another war over?

 Fezman wrote:
Well, I don't have the book, but doesn't the new DA Codex heavily imply that they are heading to Cadia and that Lion El'Jonson may wake up when they get there?

An emphatic NNNNNNOPE. Whoever fed you this is talking out their backside. I think there's mention of some of them heading to Cadia, but certainly not the entire Chapter, and the latter is total nonsense.

I think the High Lords would do everything they could to welcome him and try to get them on their side manipulate him for their own ends.

Slight fix there... remember that backstabbing politics is how the High Lords got to be High Lords in the first place. More likely, each of them would separately look to use the situation to get an advantage over the others or benefits for their own faction.

If the latter I don't necessarily think there would be civil war, at least not straight away. I think the Primarch would decide to set up their own Ultramar-like private empire that would be allied with the Imperium. The Imperium wouldn't like a human enclave separate to itself existing, but would it be worth starting yet another war over?

Well, we have two main examples of this happening before. Ultramar is one, the Badab war is the other, and the only key difference that mattered to the Imperium is that they were still getting resources from the sector, if not traditional tithes. Still providing supplies and troops, especially well-trained-by-Marines guardsmen? Great! Keep up the good work. Doing your own thing and keeping it all for yourself? TREACHERY - see if you can catch the half-dozen Marine Chapters we just threw at you.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Well, I don't have the book, but doesn't the new DA Codex heavily imply that they are heading to Cadia and that Lion El'Jonson may wake up when they get there?

An emphatic NNNNNNOPE. Whoever fed you this is talking out their backside. I think there's mention of some of them heading to Cadia, but certainly not the entire Chapter, and the latter is total nonsense.

Thanks, read that on this forum when the book first came out (i Noticed Lexicanum didn't bear this out).

I think the High Lords would do everything they could to welcome him and try to get them on their side manipulate him for their own ends.
Slight fix there... remember that backstabbing politics is how the High Lords got to be High Lords in the first place. More likely, each of them would separately look to use the situation to get an advantage over the others or benefits for their own faction.

Definitely...what I mean is that the High Lords would be anxious to get any returned Primarch on their side for the propaganda points and to use as a general, but I agree that the politicking would surely come after. I'm sure any welcoming committee would even have plans in place to open fire if necessary. In fact now I think about it sending him off on Crusade would be a handy way to make use of his skills in war while keeping him away from Terra (where he could start asking unfortunate questions - though of course he would have ample opportunity to build up a faction of his own whatever happened).

If the latter I don't necessarily think there would be civil war, at least not straight away. I think the Primarch would decide to set up their own Ultramar-like private empire that would be allied with the Imperium. The Imperium wouldn't like a human enclave separate to itself existing, but would it be worth starting yet another war over?

Well, we have two main examples of this happening before. Ultramar is one, the Badab war is the other, and the only key difference that mattered to the Imperium is that they were still getting resources from the sector, if not traditional tithes. Still providing supplies and troops, especially well-trained-by-Marines guardsmen? Great! Keep up the good work. Doing your own thing and keeping it all for yourself? TREACHERY - see if you can catch the half-dozen Marine Chapters we just threw at you.

I can think of three things that might happen:

1. The Primarch joins the imperium as its servant
2. A partnership along the lines of the AdMech/ Imperium - two groups that are technically united under the Emperor but with different interpretations of what that means, but with neither very likely to cut ties with the other (except for a few radical factions)
3. Badab War Part 2

Roboute was a High Lord of Terra and the one who set up the system of High Lords in the first place. If he were to re-awaken, I imagine he'd either just go back to becoming a High Lord again (yet still lead the Ultramarines) or would resign himself to just lead the Utltramarines. I doubt he'd want to cause a civil war against the current system, because the current system is HIS system in the first place. Sure, he won't be happy with the execution, but he'd probably try to re-enact reform via the system instead of something like civil war, because it's his system in the first place.

Rogal Dom would also avoid civil war. He agreed to Roboute's system to avoid civil war in the first place.

The other loyal primarchs would be questionable to varying degrees but I'm under the impression most of them don't want to get iand never liked getting nvolved in Imperial Politics that much anyways.

Thing is, a mini-Imperium run by a Primarch is not necessary to the Imperium like the Mechanicus is. They don't have the need to create a dual-state of that sort, so I don't see letting a Primarch turn his back on the Imperium his father created happening.

If one comes back it would come to civil war. Why? Because then the universe would be filled with even more war, and authors could allude to the tragedy of life being lost over a pointless conflict, which would add to the Grimmdark.

Guys, bringing back "one" loyal primarch defeats their tragic end....But possibilities are limitless if that happens....

It's meant to be grimdark, but why couldn't a loyalist Primarchs come back. Or two, or more. I can think of four that could come back. Given they've healed, left the rock, come back from the webway/warp.

With the Imperium crumbling in more places than one. A single Primarch could only mend the cracks. But with two or three they might be able to hold their own...for a while. And sticking with the grimdark we can have one die because who wouldn't want to read about four to six good and bad Primarchs having a show down in the middle of a battle.

There may still be one left... Warning, spoiler alert from Angel Exterminatus.



I haven't read in the Horus Heresy that Vulkan went into the warp... just that he disappeared and his Legion believes he will return.

Imagine this...

Vulkan He'stan comes across that space hulk, still adrift and forgotten after Curze's death. Through his sheer determination he pulls Vulkan out and presents him with whatever armaments he found that belonged to Vulkan. Vulkan returns to Terra and is horrified at the Administratum. The Loyalist Space Marines fall under his command and he purges the High Lords to liberate the people from their Tyranny and bring the Imperium back to the way it was. Under his leadership, the Imperium solidifies their position, launches new campaigns across the galaxy spurred on by finally having a figurehead to lead them and Vulkan oversees the work within the Emperor's secret labs as they try to find a way to revive him on his golden throne...

An emphatic NNNNNNOPE. Whoever fed you this is talking out their backside. I think there's mention of some of them heading to Cadia, but certainly not the entire Chapter, and the latter is total nonsense.

Actually it is stated in the new DA codex that the rock is speeding towards cadia with a sleeping primarch. not just implied

I believe it's also stated in 6th Edition that the Daemon prince primarchs were sighted (or rumours of sightings) in the 13th Black Crusade.

Really, the next logical step for GW would be to take all the loyalist primarchs (or at least those that are still alive), wake them up, and then have the daemon primarchs come out to counter them. The overall situation remains stagnant (because the two cancel each other out) but GW gets a ton more opportunities for $$$ from fluff stories regarding this new development and from selling post-Heresy Primarch models.

I'm kinda surprised they didn't do that already with 6th Edition. Boy, the story was moving along slowly already but 6th Edition moved it BACKWARDS -_-

BrotherChaplinMalus wrote:
Actually it is stated in the new DA codex that the rock is speeding towards cadia with a sleeping primarch. not just implied

If true, I missed it. Can you give us the page number please?

Page 25:

995999.M41 The 13th Black Crusade
"so the Rock makes all speed for the Cadian sector."


Unless they removed Johnson before flying off, he'd be there. That being said, there's nothing really pointing to him waking up when they get there. I guess if things got bad enough he would, we could get some awesome Abbadon v. Johnson action.

I personally think that the story would progress much farther if Russ returned with the waters from the fountain of life, just as the emperor past away, that way the imperium would have to decide between fighting for the primarchs, but being led by a warrior rather than a tactician. It would be an intersesting decision and It wouldn't give the Imperium the advantage that the Lion would give to them.

Chaos takes Cadia and deamons start spewing forth from somewhere else.

Nid hive fleet that enter at two opposite points of the galaxy ( to make it a huge hive fleet

Orks unite ( more than now but not completely under Thrakka)

Tau castle in a corner and start talking people to there side, including some importany humans and Eldar

Necrons get a fleet together.


I think that, that would progress quite nicely.

Russ would be fun because he'd probably show up in the middle of the 13th crusade, punch a bunch of high powered chaos guys to death, and then down a dozen beer towers before flying a battlebarge around and ultimately getting a DUI (after crashing into the moon or something).

The big problem with Russ would probably be that he's very headstrong and not particularly friendly towards groups like the Inquisition. Of all the Primarchs, I feel like he'd be the most likely to spark a civil war all over again. Khan is a warrior too, but I think he has fewer middle-fingers towards authority than Russ does, and Rowboat, Corax, Vulkan, and Johnson would all likely at least consider working within the system to improve it from the inside.

It'd definitely be a very interesting storyline if Russ came back though.

What if the Lion came back though?

We know Lion is in cryo-sleep on the rock.
Guilliman is also in cryo, but with his neck slit open (not sure why they cant fix him with the tech they have).
Russ is probably being led on a wild goose chase through the warp by Tzeench, or alternatively making hot love with a Slanesh demon.
Corax is so depressed with himself he wont come out of hiding (sorta like Perturbo).
Khan is most likely being held captive by the Dark Eldar or just flat out lost in the webway.

And finally, Vulkan, whom is the one i know least about. Probably captive or dead, but also popularly know to be chilling in semi-retirement and guarding the Destruction Engine or whatever its called.

Eihnlazer wrote:
We know Lion is in cryo-sleep on the rock.
Guilliman is also in cryo, but with his neck slit open (not sure why they cant fix him with the tech they have).
Russ is probably being led on a wild goose chase through the warp by Tzeench, or alternatively making hot love with a Slanesh demon.
Corax is so depressed with himself he wont come out of hiding (sorta like Perturbo).
Khan is most likely being held captive by the Dark Eldar or just flat out lost in the webway.

And finally, Vulkan, whom is the one i know least about. Probably captive or dead, but also popularly know to be chilling in semi-retirement and guarding the Destruction Engine or whatever its called.

Don't forget in the current Necron fluff there is a giant of a man in baroque power armor in some form of stasis as part of an exibit.

With regards to what happened with Vulkan, some spoilers from the new book Vulkan Lives...

I'd like to read more about vulkan, looks like i have a book to read.

Verses wrote:
With regards to what happened with Vulkan, some spoilers from the new book Vulkan Lives...

Spoiler:

He was held captive by Curze, but has managed to escape. He is also, apparently, a perpetual and therefore an immortal - Curze repeatedly tries killing him, going so far as to dismember him and reduce him to ashes, all of which has no effect on the fact that he keeps coming back.

The character John Grammaticus has been dispatched to kill Vulkan, it seems, but whether or not he will succeed remains to be seen.

=|

Well I think I'm done here.

If a primarch did come back wouldn't that more or less make them the emperor regent? If it was Guilliman then he have a hell of a lot space marine chapters that would instantly back him and I doubt there's much anyone on Terra could do to stop him taking power.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Verses wrote:
With regards to what happened with Vulkan, some spoilers from the new book Vulkan Lives...

Spoiler:

He was held captive by Curze, but has managed to escape. He is also, apparently, a perpetual and therefore an immortal - Curze repeatedly tries killing him, going so far as to dismember him and reduce him to ashes, all of which has no effect on the fact that he keeps coming back.

The character John Grammaticus has been dispatched to kill Vulkan, it seems, but whether or not he will succeed remains to be seen.

=|

Well I think I'm done here.

Remember the days when Ollanius Pious was just a normal guardsman who saved the day by being brave enough to stand up to a demigod?

I'd say Vulkan has the most chance of coming back, if GW brings back a primarch. It's possible he may come back if the Salamanders collect the four remaining Relics of Vulkan. (One of which I believe would be a badass thunderhammer, particularly the Unbound Flame). He is also one of the few loyalist primarchs to actually be genuinely missing, not presumed dead or heavily wounded. I like that. I like that a lot.

What would probably happen is that he either takes control of the Imperium (he's the last goddamn Primarch dammnit!) or somehow reach an equilibrium with the Lords of Terra. Anyhow, he'd definitely lead a renewed Space Marine/Imperium Force, seeing as Space Marines would see him as a GOD. And for Imperial Guard, well, seeing a SPACE MARINE of mythical proportions like that would make them awesome. Not just... Guardsmen.

Spoilers for Vulkan Lives



So yea, Vulkan's just missing and, as of the latest Horus Heresy book, almost definitely absoposilutely still alive.

That said, the Lion was actually directly stated that he will wake up when the Emperor calls him to. So he's pretty unambiguous too.

Less unambiguous but still likely, IMHO, are Roboute (in stasis, rumoured to be healing) and Russ (if I recall correctly, that Space Wolf novel implies he's still leading the 13th company. I forget if a really REALLY large space wolf was rumoured to have been cited with the 13th company during the 13th Black Crusade

Khan is just missing in the webway. So far, unlike Vulkan, he doesn't have an excuse or explanation for how he could still be alive, but... he could still be alive. Rogal Dom has been retconned to be missing, too. The Imperial Fists just have a skeletal hand that they're not even sure is his.

Ferrus Manus is dead yet some in-universe believe he's still alive. The Iron Hands themselves think that's BS. Personally, I think that if he IS still alive, he's the big man in baroque power armour that's in Trazyn's collection. How? Well, Trazyn's a necron so if anyone found a way to preserve a necrodermized (his hands) primarch despite that primarch's head being chopped off and given to Horus, Trazyn would. Maybe Trazyn used the necron reanimation protocals along with the necrodermis in Ferrus to regenerate Ferrus' head. Not that I believe he's alive, but if the in-universe guys turn out to be right about him being alive, I think this could be one possible explanation.

Sanguinus is dead, though. Or at the most, he's a spirit if he's the Sanguinor.