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Ok so i'm looking to expand my chaos space marines army, my chosen legion is word bearers and i would like to avoid things that are overly non-fluff

I played a small (600pt) test game in which I fielded the following;

sorcerer (no upgrades)
8x CSM mark of khorne - ccw, melta, fist on champ
10x csm nomark, 2 plasma, power weapon on champ
2x chaos spawn, mark of nurgle
5x havocs, 4 missile launchers, aspiring champ with nothing

this force proved to be quite strong in my first match up, the havocs and spawn being the star players.

I plan to expand the spawn by an extra 2 models and i want to bump it up so i can field 1000pts, so any opinions on what might be suitable would be appreciated!

I already have in addition to that the dark vengeance stuff so i have 20 cultists, a useable chaos lord model (i will likely stick with the sorcerer though) and a helbrute.

Should i go for obliterators? a forgefiend? vindicator? My battle plan is a fairly aggressive one involving alot of shooting, using close combat units to get in the enemy's face in order to give my shooting units a chance to do some damage. I'm not new to 40k but i am new to 6th edition so some advice on what works would be great!

so you have no armor right now. I wouldn't add any armor before you are committed to adding a lot of ti.

Add the cultists, and for Word Bearers a Dark Apostle. Very fluffy.

Daemon allies, if you are being fluffy
Possessed, if you are being fluffy

Oblits are more Iron Warriors, but they arent armor and they are very very good so I might give them a try.

I'd look to bulking out the smaller CSM squad to ten for the second weapon.
Also consider adding in another fire support unit like Oblits or Havocs.
The Sorcerer could do with some light upgrades, an inv save and another mastery level for example.

i have enough parts to build an extra 3 csm i was actually considering the numbers increase for the close combat csm so i can have another meltagun however since my first game i am questioning the usefulness of it and thinking perhaps a flamer would augment the abilities of that squad better

i think the chosen champion with the power mace from dv makes a good enough dark apostle so that is definitely an option, perhaps to combine with the cultists to stop them running

so oblits over a forgefiend for kicking out lots of shots? i'm aware that heldrakes are competitive but i want to avoid that until i'm in 1500+ territory

i have a rhino that came with the models for once of my csm squads that is unassembled and unpainted would it be worth rhino'ing up both squads?

i think i would rather go with daemon allies than posessed, although i like the idea of making the models, the rules are cumbersome and random and besides, does anyone have any positive feedback on fielding them?

is it even worth allies at 1000pts though?

At to allies at 1k, I'd say no. The base codex has enough to keep you going for at least 1500 points.

Allies involve spending $$ on another codex and learning another ruleset which might be too much if you're just starting.

If what you have is working, then why not just add more of what you have? A second sorcerer, a third squad of troops, and a second squad of havocs?

Ailaros - that is an interesting plan, i like the thinking there, though the dark apostles morale boosting abilities are more appealing than another sorcerer - i only picked the sorcerer because it is the cheapest hq and comes with power/force weapon i never got to use his psychic ability unfortunately (psychic shriek) though i'm thinking maybe with more than one ability he will be more able to be useful at least once

i like the idea of another squad of csm to deal fiery plasma death in my first game i used that unit to hide my sorcerer in (so he can use his ability if they get too close)

on the havocs - i think i need something with a bit of armour busting ability lascannons on havocs are a bit costly in points i think, i dont like predator tanks so that leaves the forgefiend with hades autocannons or oblits - or maybe even a vindy, though i'm starting to feel that it might not have the range to put the pressure on that i'm trying to achieve

 muleyyy wrote:
Ok so i'm looking to expand my chaos space marines army, my chosen legion is word bearers and i would like to avoid things that are overly non-fluff

I played a small (600pt) test game in which I fielded the following;

sorcerer (no upgrades)
8x CSM mark of khorne - ccw, melta, fist on champ
10x csm nomark, 2 plasma, power weapon on champ
2x chaos spawn, mark of nurgle
5x havocs, 4 missile launchers, aspiring champ with nothing

this force proved to be quite strong in my first match up, the havocs and spawn being the star players.

I plan to expand the spawn by an extra 2 models and i want to bump it up so i can field 1000pts, so any opinions on what might be suitable would be appreciated!

I already have in addition to that the dark vengeance stuff so i have 20 cultists, a useable chaos lord model (i will likely stick with the sorcerer though) and a helbrute.

Should i go for obliterators? a forgefiend? vindicator? My battle plan is a fairly aggressive one involving alot of shooting, using close combat units to get in the enemy's face in order to give my shooting units a chance to do some damage. I'm not new to 40k but i am new to 6th edition so some advice on what works would be great!

More cultist(very fluffy). And yes the DV sergeant makes good conversion. Will show you a pic of my finished product when I go on the computers.

Well. I'd swapped the missle launchers our for autocannon. And run 2 x 5men 4 autocannon havocs. Cheap and good.

Spawn is a good idea.

You can include a daemon prince if you'd like. Fluffy and in your face kind of threat. I'd recommend tzeentch or khorne. Depending on your personal preference. Both puts out insane amount of attacks if equiped with the chaos artifect.

i have a daemon prince model that i had assembled but not yet painted - need to decide on a painting scheme for him first also dont you think this would be illl advised in smaller games?

look forward to seeing what you have done with the dv chosen champion

The DV chosen are a mixed bag

The guy with a mace is a great DA, I converted 2 of them into apostles

The 2 bolter guys are fine, although I would turn at least one into a melta or plasma gunner

The dual lightning claw guy is pretty useless. You can use him to convert single LC aspiring champions

The power fist guy isnt much more use, but at least you only need to clip one arm.

The power ax guy is the easiest, just dont pain the ax as powered, just leave it metal and you have a great combat trooper.


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you can necro this thread in P&M if you like

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/485032.page

I have actually split them up to use as aspiring champions for my squads, even the bolter guys.

I dont much rate chosen, and i have some termi's already that i havnt assembled (want to think about the weapon configuration before i do that)

if i were to go with chosen i would probally use forgeworld models to differentiate them and go with a shooty loadout rather than a close combat one so either all melta guns or all flamers and stick them in a rhino


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oh i like the bookworm conversion, very nice work with the helmet!

Personally for long range anti-vehicle firepower, I love the forgefiends. Though like someone said, go armor or go home. Take lots of AV or none. One lone AV model will die really quick. two forgefiends, in a 5 round game is throwing out 80 strength 8 shots, 40 of those are bound to hit...not bad. Just a thought, it works for me.

Masashi363 thanks for the advice, i like the idea of the forgefiends -all them str8 shots per turn is attractive i have to say

what are your thoughts on the ectoplasma upgrades? my feelings are that it may be a little short ranged like the vindy

 muleyyy wrote:
i have a daemon prince model that i had assembled but not yet painted - need to decide on a painting scheme for him first also dont you think this would be illl advised in smaller games?

look forward to seeing what you have done with the dv chosen champion

My bad.
But for a 1000 points I personlly think its alright. But its a risk you'll have decide if you want to take.

A prince with armour and wings comes to to around 200 pts ish.
Throw in an artefact he will come around 250 pts.

 muleyyy wrote:
i have a daemon prince model that i had assembled but not yet painted - need to decide on a painting scheme for him first also dont you think this would be illl advised in smaller games?

look forward to seeing what you have done with the dv chosen champion

Would completely disagree with this. This is the sort of thing that works in 1000pts, bring stuff that your opponent isn't ready for. My friend brought a Chaos Land Raider in a 600pt game. I can say that I wasn't ready for it, and got completely wiped out by it, because I couldn't kill it, give it Wings, Power Armour, MoN and Black Mace, and you're set!

 Exergy wrote:
so you have no armor right now. I wouldn't add any armor before you are committed to adding a lot of ti.

QFT. Also agree with adding Daemon allies

The 24 inch range on the ectoplasma is just too restrictive for me. I play my forgefiends at max range, AT 36". Keeps my fragile AV12 alive a little longer. You might get more bang for the buck (especially against TEQ) but they will also be in more danger. I guess it depends on your play style.

More Havocs and Spawn would be a great choice. More of the same troops would be a good idea. Cultists with a DA would be a good, fluffy idea. Rhinos might be a good idea. Heldrakes.. For sure.

Level up that Sorcerer to Lvl 3 and take all 3 rolls on Telepathy.. Then you'll see what he can really do. Invisibility, Puppet Master, and Hallucinations are the key powers. Terrify is great against the right opponent. I'd try giving him a Bike and Burning Brand and sticking him with the Spawn for extra LOLS.

Umm, DPs are kind of tricky for me. You basically pay for a lord and a sorcerer, and then glue them together into a single unit, getting the usefulness of both.

That said, I have three problems with them. The first is that I, in particular, happen to be a khorne player, and khorne demons are vapidly pointless. The second is that they're really expensive. It does allow you to spend more points in your HQ slots, but you kind of have to with DPs, as they have plenty of semi-mandatory upgrades that shoot the price up. More importantly, what does their killing power and durability efficiency look like?

The third problem I have is that there are so many good HQ choices. The special characters are so good that it feels like kind of a waste not to take at least one, which means that you can't take a DP if you're relying on a sorcerer or a lord to make elites choices scoring. I mean, DPs aren't bad, but they're competing against some VERY good things, rather than the merely pretty darn good thing a DP is.

That and they're pretty weak for a monstrous creature, durability-wise. I mean, seriously, they can suffer from instant death? W4 without a source of Sv2+ isn't very much to brag about either. It sort of feels like it's the kind of thing that's just going to get shot down by lascannons before it has a chance to do that much.

I'm yet to play the DP in 6th, and I know that the mandatory lash prince of 5th is gone. He seems to be a very strong glass cannon, which might suit your playing style.

My opinion of a very fluffy interpretation of the WB would be marines everywhere. Forget the cultists and swarm them in bodies with power armour. After all, they are the most numerous legion of all and several blobs of marines still hurt quite a lot.

The question you're posing would benefit from a little introduction to your gaming enviroment. Are the lists optimised or is it simply a friendly enviroment? This sort of thing answers a lot of questions and might give you very different answers.

My local enviroment is friendly and semi-competitive and therefore, my 9 remaining possessed are still sitting in their boxes even though it's probably the single coolest plastic kit in the game (Wings for everybody!). On the other hand, my army of choice is Night Lords, so I'm still planning on including warp talons even though they might be the worst unit in the codex.

A Slaanesh DP can run and therefore save on the wings. Leave of the Psychic for a reasonable HtH threat that still gets up the board. Run with 2 Mauler fiends and some spawn. I like to take bikers but the models are expensive and I hear spawn are better anyway.

This is my converted Dark Apostle from DV Chosen Champion

Credits goes to my cousin. What do you guys think?


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 Musashi363 wrote:
The 24 inch range on the ectoplasma is just too restrictive for me. I play my forgefiends at max range, AT 36". Keeps my fragile AV12 alive a little longer. You might get more bang for the buck (especially against TEQ) but they will also be in more danger. I guess it depends on your play style.

I think the AT is 48 inch range.

To be honest, playing a Word Bearer list without a Dark Apostle feels like a hate crime, and he is just that much better with a squad of CSMs than in a throng of cultists. I mean really, who cares if you re-roll to hit on charges with them? They are doing jack and squat and are a waste of his time. And not like their champ is /ever/ going to win a Challenge on top of that for a re-roll on the chart. You throw him in a CC unit of CSMs and you throw your Sorc or Lord in with him in that unit.

I think a Unmarked lvl 3 Sorc with 3 rolls on Biomancy (shoot for Endurance, as it is better than any cover save *coughinvisibilityhack* that bale flamers just ignore) or a kitted out Lord built for CC will make that unit your 'deathstar'. You make that a 20 CSM unit with extra CCWs and maybe MoK with a Icon of Wrath and two melta guns (and maybe a combi-flamer on your Champ) and you have a nasty unit. You support it with two more 10 man units with dual plasma guns (say in Rhinos with Dirge casters) with a squad or two of Havoks (ACs and LCs with maybe MLs as filler) with maybe two Obilts giving you versatility for your long range fire (and DS potential). Don't be afraid to toss some Havoc Launchers or Combi-Meltas on your Rhinos and don't forget about the Champ to give your list more balance (anti-hoard or anti-armor, whatever your worried about the most). Just be careful of over spending on a unit. Keep in mind what the unit is doing and focus on that.

I think after that, if you have any points left over, you do filler. A squad of Cultists to sit on a rear objective and hide in cover fills in points. Gift of Mutation on CC champs and maybe your sorc/Lord isn't a terrible choice. Make sure everyone who can carry a melta bomb has one unless they have something like a Power Fist or Chain Fist that is 'equal' to it for dealing with MCs and Vehicles. If you have a Havok Squad (or two), look at Marks, look at Vets or look at a IoV so they don't run away if 2 guys get killed. Look at getting a Agesis Defense Line with a Quad or LC. Then look at a helturkey or two and your set.

I will give you a 1500pt list, to show you what I am talking about. This obviously depends on how you as a player actually plays, but I will make an aggressive list that is attacking, somewhat based off of your 600pt list.

DA - 120pts
MoT, VotLW

Sorc - 145pts
+2 lvls, VotLW, Sigil of Corruption, Melta Bomb, 3 rolls on Biomancy

20x CSM - 433pts
2x Melta guns, extra CCW (19 figs), MoK , IoW, VotLW, Champ with Power Fist

10x CSM - 222pts
2x Plasma guns, Rhino with Havoc Launcher and Dirge Siren

10x CSM - 222pts
2x Plasma guns, Rhino with Havoc Launcher and Dirge Siren

12x Cultists - 58pts

Havoc Squad - 150pts
2x AC, 2x LC, MoT, VotLW

Havoc Squad - 150pts
2x AC, 2x LC, MoT, VotLW

1500pts

Notes:
I was going to give the Havocs Mark of Nurgle, but Lascannons and other heavy range weapons don't care about T5. Yes, you should have them in cover, but the thing you have to worry about the most is in your own Codex, the Baleflamer and other weapons that ignore cover (and trust me, there are enough). It is a 6++, but it is a roll that you otherwise wouldn't have for a few points. This is always something you can drop for a few more points to pay for other stuff if you don't feel it comes into play enough to justify the few points it costs. The weapon split is for two reasons. First off, you can fire your LCs at two different targets if you desire, and secondly if they want to destroy your LCs they have to kill both squads. The ACs give you AA, light transport, and anti-infantry capability that LCs alone would just be overkill on (or not kill enough guys to merit the points). Plus it is a cheaper option to keep the squad cheap so you can field two of them.

Extra CCW says Chaos Space Marines, not Aspiring Champions. Champs have their own equipment load-outs. Yes, that is an expensive unit, specially when rocking both HQs in it your looking at around 600pts. You can shave off points with ditching the Vets and just swapping your bolters for the CCW, but I wanted to give you versatility and punch. But hey, far as I am concerned, you can deep 6 the entire list. This is just to give you ideas. Pie plates and Baleflamers will hurt bad, so keep them spread out! Remember that the Sorc and DA will not have Furious Charge from the banner. The MoK gives the CSMs Rage and Counter-Attack, so keep that in mind as well. You want to Charge first!

The Rhino CSMs give you Plasma fire for MEQ and the Havoc Launchers give you anti-hoard. Remember that the Rhino is it's own unit, so it can fire at one unit while the guys inside can fire on another unit. Run them close to or even in front of your large squad to get enemies in that Dirge Caster range. These guys are not shock troops or anything, they are 8 bolters and 2 plasma guns in a box, don't expect to much else from them.

The cultists are rear area objective holders, and not much more. In games without objectives they are a screen to give your 20 man CSM mob cover saves. I would then run the DA with them in those situations, then leave them and join the CSMs when you get close to charge range or if the Cultists all get shot out from under him.

For your Sorc, your goal is Endurance to give your CSMs (and the DA and Sorc) Feel No Pain. But there are a couple of combat buffs for your Sorc, a Vampyic Touch type of heal and a de-buff. There is really nothing that will hurt you on that list and the primus power isn't a bad assault power. And worse comes to worse, you have a Force weapon to blow Warp Charges on. I actually wouldn't bother with a Force Axe due to the chance to get Warp Speed, so stick with the Sword or go Maul for +2 Str. If you do run against Terminators, the idea is to hit them so much that they have to roll a lot of dice and some of those rolls are going to be 1s. Your forcing them to fail by overwhelming them with attacks (with re-rolls to hit if you charge them).

The DA has MoT and a comes stock with a Sigil of Corruption, so his saves are 3+/3++. Your effectively making a invuln save for everything for minimum points on a guy that can't have Terminator armor. I kinda figure he will be your Warlord, so protect him. Though if you want to ride the 4++ from Sigil, you could always go MoK and give him the Axe of Blind Fury. Then the IoW will give him some extra power to boot.

An advantage to running both your HQ in the same squad is that you now have 3 characters for dealing with Challenges, take advantage of that by picking the right guy to issue based on who your facing and who you want swinging on their troops. This is also a great way to protect your Warlord, and your Sorc can be a heck of a thug with Iron Arm and/or Warp Speed.

Good luck! I hope this at least gives you some ideas!

I'd just like to say thanks for the idea's and that converted dark apostle is SWEET

BlkTom I will definitely take some of your idea's on board, thanks for taking the time to explain in such detail though i suspect with the havocs adding more oblative wounds is more points efficient than getting a 6 up invulnerable

the csm with 2 plasma guns was the obvious thing to do considering the 6th edition rules, dirge caster rhino's is also something to consider, in my local club we have orks, tau, tyranids, space pups, dark eldar, and death guard csm


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i can imagine a dirge caster being particularily nasty against tau (provided you can get one close enough!)

I did make a mistake... a marked character can not join a unit with a different mark (pg 30 CSM Codex). It doesn't say anything about a marked character joining a unmarked unit or vice versa.

So that DA would have to have MoK to join the CSM with MoK (or be unmarked), but the unmarked Sorc should be fine unless it is changed in the FAQ (and it says nothing in the errata about it, just checked).

though i suspect with the havocs adding more oblative wounds is more points efficient than getting a 6 up invulnerable

This is up to choice, but it cost 10pts to give 5 guys a 6++ and it costs you 13pts to buy a single guy, not counting extra points for a Mark or VotLW. So yeah, the 6++ is the cheaper option, it just isn't sexy.

Lol, no i was just trying to type "at" but my stupid phone capitalised it. But the range of the hades autocannon is 36".

Get Obliterators. They add a lot of flexibility to your army, whatever units you run.

They'd be fine from a fluff standpoint in a Word Bearers army, there is a Word Bearers Obliterator in the BL novel 'Daemon World'.

i dont see any problem with obliterators as they are a meld of marine and daemon - this is what they are all about

even some cult squads i reckon would be fine as long as it is kept to one of each (as an elite option) as word bearers see dedication to one chaos god as a weakness but dont mind including them in their armies - just their champions would never go far politically in the legion

kissmymom wrote:
This is my converted Dark Apostle from DV Chosen Champion

Credits goes to my cousin. What do you guys think?

I think the AT is 48 inch range.

Forgefiends have -12" range and +1 str compared with what you think they should be


Love the DA, what is in his left hand? Pistol?