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Hey everyone, been picking up on the general consensus that space marines are not very competitive at this time. I have noticed first hand that especially for smaller games (below 1000 pts) my Daemons and Imperial Guard perform significantly better.

Now having said that, what do you think makes the current SM Codex below par and what would have to change in the rumored upcoming codex of space marines to bring them up to par with the recent codex releases.

Do you think they will be made competitive or will they become an entry level codex for new players, all round, simple and not specifically good at anything?

Discuss!

1) Cheaper marines. 17 points a model is to much to pay.

2) Cheaper bikes. Ravenwing bikes are a hair more expensive for much better units.

3) Cheaper TAC terminators. 40 points a pop is to much for those guys. They should be closer to 35.

4) Cheaper scouts.

5) Cheaper devastators

You will notice a theme here. C:SM has a lot of overcosted units. Compare the costs directly with the DA book and you will see that C:SM overpay in a lot of ways.

Low point games are also not our best place to shine. While we can technically field a legal army at 250 points, that's pretty bare-bones and useless. 500 points is just the basics, plus one cheap unit for flavor/fun. At 1,000 points you can start thinking about covering all the bases and making a TAC list, but you have to cut a lot of corners and make some sacrifices.

We do have a lot of units that are a -little- overpriced. If you look at the DA codex, I think you'll see where the points should head. Overall, I think the codex is well balanced. There are a lot of different things you can do with it, and many different viable builds. Honestly, a few point tweaks is all we need.

3) Cheaper TAC terminators. 40 points a pop is to much for those guys. They should be closer to 35.

I agree with you, price drops all round. But nearly 10 points less than DA terminators will turn the Deathwing into a joke.

I hope the SM codex can be balanced to the DA book and not completely eclipse it.
This may be difficult though as Codex DA is one of the most overly cautious new codices of 6th ed.

As a DA player here's to hoping they will have to lower some points in the DA book to allow this to happen!
(The chance of this happening IMO is virtually nil)

Big Blind Bill wrote:
I agree with you, price drops all round. But nearly 10 points less than DA terminators will turn the Deathwing into a joke.

Are not deathwing a joke today?

Are any terminator army at the moment not a joke? Even Draigo wing has seen a huge nerf in 6th.
At least at the moment Deathwing put out an average fluffy list. Having normal SM with cheaper terminators would not only make no sense fluffwise, but would also be the final nail in the coffin for Deathwing.

I'd hope Deathwing could be brought down to a reasonable price, then SM termies put a point or 2 higher than them.

I have the same feeling for the RW bikers. I really don't wish Codex Marines to eclipse another codex's abilities.

I have the same feeling for the RW bikers. I really don't wish Codex Marines to eclipse another codex's abilities.

Same feeling here too. As far as the basic bikes go Ravenwing don't have too much over SM bikes any way (Im ignoring dakka banner, black knights, darkshround here)
They have HIt and run which is fantastic, but losing combat tactics for stubborn is a bit of a loss IMO. The points cost difference is already right in my mind.

(Fingers crossed for Supplement death/ravenwing, tbh I can't see any other possibility for a DA supplement.)

Big Blind Bill wrote:
[Same feeling here too. As far as the basic bikes go Ravenwing don't have too much over SM bikes any way (Im ignoring dakka banner, black knights, darkshround here)
They have HIt and run which is fantastic, but losing combat tactics for stubborn is a bit of a loss IMO. The points cost difference is already right in my mind.

What does ravenwing have over C:SM bikes?
- Hit and Run
- Stubbron
- Scout
- Outflanking
- Ravenwing Combat Squads (to provide more scoring units)
- Teleport Homers
All that for 2 more points a model?
And you don't think they have to much more over normal C:SM bikes?

And that does not even touch on the most important element -- the bolter banner. The bolter banner increases the damage capacity by 400%!! That's an insane amount of firepower that the bolter banner allows for DA bikes to produce. Even if C:SM bikes go down to 20 points each, DA bikes will still be better b/c of the bolter banner.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Are any terminator army at the moment not a joke? Even Draigo wing has seen a huge nerf in 6th.
At least at the moment Deathwing put out an average fluffy list. Having normal SM with cheaper terminators would not only make no sense fluffwise, but would also be the final nail in the coffin for Deathwing.

I'd hope Deathwing could be brought down to a reasonable price, then SM termies put a point or 2 higher than them.

- Draigowing took a huge nurf. Instead of being completely overpowered its only good.
- CSM terminators are well priced. You can build an army with them that's not a complete joke.
- The same applies to wolf guard termiantors. You see a trend here? ~33 point terminators are feasible.
So yes, you can build 3 armies today that are terminator only/heavy that are not a complete joke.

Deathwing are not going to get cheaper until they get a new codex. GW is not going to throw out a FAQ and lower their cost by 6. Deathwing have a lot of special rules your paying a premium for.
That's why deathwing are a joke -- because your forced to buy a lot of things you just won't use. Deathwing should cost about 38 points IMHO. Normal marines at 35. That's because deathwing has those extra features like vengeful strike, fearless, preferred enemy CSM.

What does ravenwing have over C:SM bikes?
- Hit and Run
- Stubbron
- Scout
- Outflanking
- Ravenwing Combat Squads (to provide more scoring units)
- Teleport Homers

I don't have codex SM with me, but they don't have scout or outflank? I find that hard to believe. Scout is great, outflank not so much now.
As for the other points:
Hit and Run - Yeah Awesomesauce.
Stubborn - This isn't an advantage, it is an ok swap at best with combat tactics.
Combat squads - Sure more 3 man scoring units giving away even more KP'S, 6 max squad size limits the full potential of this.
TP homers - yeah +1 for the Ravenwing, but then against the scouts in the list don't have them.

So 2 points for Scout, hit and run, and TP homers. Good I agree. So at the moment they are 2 points more than a codex which everyone agrees is overcosted.
So how much once the new SM codex comes out? 3 points more, 4?
They are also one of the special units of the DA. They SHOULD be better than SM bikes. They SHOULD have some advantage when it comes to points.
Codex DA does have a points advantage over the current Codex SM, but once that is gone, what will they have?

Big Blind Bill wrote:

Codex DA does have a points advantage over the current Codex SM, but once that is gone, what will they have?

A bunch of models to use in the new Codex Space marine, and a bunch of pissed off players that have a recently outdated codex.

A bunch of models to use in the new Codex Space marine, and a bunch of pissed off players that have a recently outdated codex.

Haha yeah quite possibly this.

That said I wouldn't mind turning them into a SM bike army, at least then I'd get to pick my own warlord who might be intelligent enough to get a 2+ save.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Codex DA does have a points advantage over the current Codex SM, but once that is gone, what will they have?

The bolter banner. You seem to be missing the idea of a 400% increase in damage output. Let me put it this way.

A C:SM army manages to get 20 bikes within rapid fire range. They are able to shoot 16 TL bolter shots, 4 PG shots, and 6 HB/2 MM shots. That's not to bad. Lets say your shooting at Guardians, your going to kill 15. To buy these 20 bikes cost you ~620 points.

A DA army manages to get 20 bikes within rapid fire range. They are able to take 80 bolter shots. Lets say your shooting at Guardians. Your going to kill 47!!! To buy these 20 bikes cost you ~540 points.

So DA deliver 3* the damage for less points.

The bolter banner

I'm not missing the point, I run it in my RW army. Its great sure, it also has downsides of course. But my real gripe with this kind of argument is that having this makes it all ok.
DA get one competitive build and that makes up for all other imbalances?

The problem is DA seems to be balanced vs 5th edition SM. And once 6th ed gets to them, I fear a big step forward in codex creep (as opposed to a more gradual one of course.)

Back on topic: I've heard they are adding different army buffs for different chapters - Don't know how true it is, but sounds interesting a and should hopefully open up some new builds.
This and points costs. I can't imagine many new models, besides perhaps a giant walker/MC, because thats they things seem to be going.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
DA get one competitive build and that makes up for all other imbalances?

Where do you get "one competitive build" from?

At this time, DA are the best marine book out there. With 14 point marines, you can drop a ton of MEQ bodies on the table. 'Greenwing' is a solid counter for a lot of the builds out today. Wave serpent spam is a lot less deadly to armies with a 3+ save -- who cares if you ignore cover I'm still saving most of the time.

DA have some great tools at their disposal. Azrael has good flexability as a HQ and acts as a good buff unit for any DA or ally. DA have access to dirt cheap psykers.

DA are a good army overall with a bad build -- Deathwing. As I mentioned earlier, the problem is not that deathwing are BAD -- they are actually quite effective on the table. The problem is the cost.
Take a look at a plague marine. Plague marines get a bunch of really great abilities. If you were to buy them all individually it would run you about 29 points per model. PMs get a 5 point discount per model by buying all those things in bulk.
Deathwing get no such advantage. Your stuck buying fearless, a PF, deathwing assault, vengeful strike and split fire for every squad. At 44 points for a base model and 49 points for a TH/SS they are just to expensive. I can see fielding 5-10 of them, but any more just limits your army to much.
The real crux of the problem is GW's over emphasis on the PF. They think the PF is the next best thing to sliced cheese in a shooting based game. That's why 33 points for a wolf guard / CSM termie are reasonable.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Back on topic: I've heard they are adding different army buffs for different chapters - Don't know how true it is, but sounds interesting a and should hopefully open up some new builds.
This and points costs. I can't imagine many new models, besides perhaps a giant walker/MC, because thats they things seem to be going.

They might get a big walker. I hope they get a cheaper storm chicken.
I dig the idea of multiple tactical options for your HQ. Its very space-marine like.

Deathwing sucks for the same reason the Stormraven sucks. TOo many bells and whistles.

At this time, DA are the best marine book out there.

Boom. Couldn't have said it better myself. This is the most important thing, DA are the best marines at the moment because they got a 6th ed codex first. That is pretty much it.
After marine codices catch up then what? Codex SM marines will most likely be 14 or 15 pts, with combat tactics over stubborn, which is much more useful.

Azrael, cheap librarians- yeah, good stuff. Can you build an army from that? It is a little sad that Azraels best use is buffing an IG blob instead of actually fighting with units from his own codex.
DA have expensive vindicators, poor flyers, limited wargear options (Magic standards and a nerfed power field generator). They will, with IMO almost all certainty, be replaced in the same way Codex DA replaced the 5th edition SM codex. Without specialized DW/RW armies, DA has northing a standard SM army couldn't bring to the table (hell SM even get a form of Ravenwing with their own bike armies.)

'Greenwing' is a solid counter for a lot of the builds out today.

Sorry I just don't see this at all. Like what? They are just 6th ed new marines. Wait for things to catch up. They are a poor match at best vs new tau and eldar.

I dig the idea of multiple tactical options for your HQ. Its very space-marine like.

I heard they are doing it by chapter. I like the concept but not by linking it to a set chapter. (You could just say 'this chapter is actually this chapter' of course) but i just hate having options taken away from me by GW. For example being forced to Take Sammael to get ravenwing troops. In older DA editions you could just take a master of the ravenwing, and equip him more to your tastes.

"This change would make DA bad" is not a good excuse for dismissing proposed changes to C:SM, because then you end up with two bad books instead of just one. Just because GW messed up with DA doesn't their mistakes should shackle C:SM's update.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
"This change would make DA bad" is not a good excuse for dismissing proposed changes to C:SM, because then you end up with two bad books instead of just one. Just because GW messed up with DA doesn't their mistakes should shackle C:SM's update.

Which is why they should have released C:SM first and release everyone else as supplements. Seems to me that it would work better if they all had the same touchstone to work from.

It would allow them some freedom to actually change up some things without invalidating earlier books.

Maybe add some suspensors to infantry heavy bolters making the marine with it relentless. (You might actually see someone take them)
Up the side armor on the Predator and definitely the Vindicator. Having a battle tank with side armor 11 is sad. having a siege tank with it just seems silly.

GW can actually solve the problem by FAQing fixes into older books, but I don't believe they've ever done so for things like point reductions.

All codices should be electronic and updated in real time. That way, GW can modify the point values in real time as the game displays what units are really worth.

Martel732 wrote:
All codices should be electronic and updated in real time. That way, GW can modify the point values in real time as the game displays what units are really worth.

I'd love them to do this, but GW seems stuck in a pre-internet era where everyone writes their lists for fun, using units they like the look of with a pen and paper. Their business model is 15 years out of date, but they fear moving to more frequently updated rulebooks will alienate the non-internet using base of players.....which is who exactly? Who doesn't have internet in this era but can afford to play 40k? I mean, they don't even have to update weekly or anything, 2-3 updates a year would be more than enough.

Martel732 wrote:
All codices should be electronic and updated in real time. That way, GW can modify the point values in real time as the game displays what units are really worth.

Whoa! Hold on there. What sort of witchery is this? Are you suggesting that GW use existing technology to keep codices up to date, balanced and competitive?

I see the DA codex as a clue as to where space marines are going. My guesses are:
librarians will be cheaper, if not on par with DA librarians
Terminators will either shave off a few points or stay around the same
I also expect a fair amount of force org or shuffling

 MWHistorian wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All codices should be electronic and updated in real time. That way, GW can modify the point values in real time as the game displays what units are really worth.

Whoa! Hold on there. What sort of witchery is this? Are you suggesting that GW use existing technology to keep codices up to date, balanced and competitive?

Yes, but GW strikes me as an extremely lazy company, and this would be simply too much reflection upon and thinking about their own products.

I am hoping that the cost of tactical marines will go down and that we will be allowed to take more than 1 special weapon in a squad.

Furthermore, it would be cool if they created some varients of the basic rhino, an apothocary rhino, a techmarine rhino, etc, that have some abilities.

Apothocaries should be allowed in normal squads, like a combat medic and they should be slightly cheaper as fnp was nerfed in 6th.

What could also be cool is if they were allowed to deploy aux. troops like normal guardsmen (like in the novels) which have been trained by the marines.

Just some ideas...

I think some of your ideas would make good additions aliusexalio. Would certainly add some more variety to SMM lists. However 2 things I find off.

First is I don't think double special weapons will happen. This is more of a grey hunter thing, and GW needs some differences between marines codex's, so I think it unlikely.

Secondly:

they should be slightly cheaper as fnp was nerfed in 6th.

I hear this a lot and I don't buy it. Sure the save is now 5+, but you are taking it taking against more things which wouldn't have allowed before.
The new FNP is much more useful vs tau plasma fire and AP2 spam eldar. Not to mention MC's with less than str 8.
Points should be around the same, the change seems fair to me.

No, I really don't think there needs to be a big difference between marines and grey hunters. Grey hunters have had the rule of the roost for imperial marines for too long now. Tac marines should be issued close combat weapons and be given double specials. The grey hunters would still have their OP counter attack special.

Given the amount of fire from things like pulse rifles and scatter lasers I face in 6th, I'd rather have 5th edition FNP. I find that getting to roll it against plasma and MCs doesn't really help me win the day. My squads still end up crippled.

No, I really don't think there needs to be a big difference between marines and grey hunters. Grey hunters have had the rule of the roost for imperial marines for too long now. Tac marines should be issued close combat weapons and be given double specials. The grey hunters would still have their OP counter attack special.

Double special weapons might be ok, but I believe it would never happen.

Giving them a bolt pistol and CC weapon is a big nono in my book. Tac marines need to have some weaknesses, one of those is not being too great at melee. Melee lists are already at a disadvantage without giving space marine gun lines an extra attack.

I'd be up for giving the scouts Bolt pistol/CC weapon + another gun. They are in more more need of some love.

Tac marines have plenty of weaknesses. One of them is being a very inefficient troop choice as they are currently equipped. Another is that they are power armor in 6th edition. But, that's just another way of restating their first weakness.

Melee lists not at a disadvantage because of tac marines. That concept is almost laughable. They are at a disadvantage because Tau, IG and Eldar lists look at marine squads and they evaporate.

Tac marines should have a bloody knife on their person to give them two hand to hand attacks. They're supposed to be all around troops, yet only have one hand to hand attack? But its okay for the grey hunters and chaos marines to have close combat weapons? That makes no sense to me.

If you can't tell, I'm really sick of SW being arbitrarily better than all the other marine chapters.