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At the only store in Augusta, GA for Warhammer 40k, there's a nice enough fellow who absolutely abuses every piece of cheese in the new Eldar codex. He runs a Wraithknight, wraithfighter, Dark Reapers, some kind of heavy support gun, and the bare minimum guardians. He keeps everything either tucked behind an aegis defense line, close to his DECKED OUT 2 wave serpents, or behind "upgraded cover"? wtf? And a small squad of Warp spiders to run around and distract the enemy...

Every game I've seen him in, he might lose the warp spiders, but that's it. I managed to kill 1 wave serpent the entire game. He came in 2nd in a tournament recently, to a Tau cheese abuser.

The only game he's ever almost lost with them was against Grey Knights decked with teleporters, and he got pissed and accused the guy of cheating..

I have plenty of greyknights to put the fear of the emperor in this guy..but how can I do it with Space Wolves? that would be righteous!

...Wraithfighters are cheesy now?

GKs with mindstrike storm ravens can gut his psykers by giving them a free perils of the warp wound to the face with no save if it even glances them.

Allying in a manticore will obliterate his backfield ADL campers. As for killing the serpents, psyfledreads are well equipped to shave off his hull points though the Serpents can kill them in turn. The Wraithknight is a great target for a dreadknight's S10 force fists to ID it in one go, and with a teleporter it can keep up. Getting burny weapons on it to get at cover camping pansies is also good.

Try using henchmen and allied guard over knights if you can help it, the new book is virtually tailormade to kill marines in a shooting match. Plasma is your friend here, as are good invulnerable saves, so get storm shield crusaders and plasma acolytes and arrange them accordingly.

Your guard units should secure back field objectives while heavy weapons teams help the artillery out with long range firepower, raining down misery on their heads. As the main vehicle the Eldar use doesn't care about pens, you may even consider hellhounds over vendettas to scorch cover camping pansies. As for your allied elites, I dunno...flamercide stormies?

Hah, no wraith-pigeons aren't cheesy. I was referring to shields overlapping shields overlapping shields, behind cover, turning reaper squads into 5 miniature titans.

ALSO I was asking about how to kill them with Space puppies.. Not Grey Knights

Pyeatt wrote:
Hah, no wraith-pigeons aren't cheesy. I was referring to shields overlapping shields overlapping shields, behind cover, turning reaper squads into 5 miniature titans.

ALSO I was asking about how to kill them with Space puppies.. Not Grey Knights

I'm more versed in killing the sons of russ than playing them. :/

 Kain wrote:

Pyeatt wrote:
Hah, no wraith-pigeons aren't cheesy. I was referring to shields overlapping shields overlapping shields, behind cover, turning reaper squads into 5 miniature titans.

ALSO I was asking about how to kill them with Space puppies.. Not Grey Knights

I'm more versed in killing the sons of russ than playing them. :/

No suggestions then? I tried flooding with missile launchers, bikers, and Rhinos through cover. Also spammed runepriests, but he killed them all within the first two turns, so not much living lightning was seen that day

Missiles are as effective as ever against the waveserpents. If they fire their shield weapon they lose the "downgrade to a glance on 2+" ability.

Thunderwolf cavalry seem effective to me. Eldar fall apart in close combat for the most part. You probably only need TH to fight wraithknights. Even without TH, you could just rend them to death.

Take a quadgun, have someone like a BS5 Runepriest to fire it and then just take as many missiles and lascannons as possible. Go back to razorspam if you have to, it's still a good list.

Eldar have a ton of shots coming out of relatively few models. Once you start taking stuff out, SW can win the war of attrition as you wear away his fire base faster than he can wear away yours.

I'll give it a shot, but I'm thinking of just shunning that guy any time he wants to play at this point. At least until Space wolves catch up with 6th edition

What are you talking about shield overlapping shield, cover saves dont stack like that

yeah what do you mean about overlapping shields??

as for the Wolves of fenris. Massed drop pods. Wolves can field up to 12 easily. dont take logan and WG in the 12 pod list. just put pods and Grey hunters in his face and behind his ADL.

the other option is to take 4 LRs. if he isnt taking Bright lances. Monofiliment and Bladestorm do not rend tanks.


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had another set of ideas,

if any one is going to be TFG and then whine when a perfect counter army comes along the deserve it.

you can take IG field 9 Leman russes for like 1500 i think with min troops and cheep HQ

Mali wrote:
yeah what do you mean about overlapping shields??

as for the Wolves of fenris. Massed drop pods. Wolves can field up to 12 easily. dont take logan and WG in the 12 pod list. just put pods and Grey hunters in his face and behind his ADL.

the other option is to take 4 LRs. if he isnt taking Bright lances. Monofiliment and Bladestorm do not rend tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
had another set of ideas,

if any one is going to be TFG and then whine when a perfect counter army comes along the deserve it.

you can take IG field 9 Leman russes for like 1500 i think with min troops and cheep HQ

Shield sarcasm.

0.0 ........... You can do that? (I have some IG, never played IG) Now I'm drooling a bit. let the tank wars begin!

Shields overlapping shields etc worries me a *little* bit. Just to check - are you aware, you only get one save from any source, and that cover saves don't combine unless (like Stealth or Shrouded) the rule presents it as a modifier?
It's true that the Eldar get a lot of sources for rerolls, but in particular the armour save reroll (Fortune) is no longer an automatic choice as a psychic power, and when it is rolled, it can only be cast on one unit at a time per psyker that has it. So you may be able to pick on the units that don't have it.

For getting rid of cover saves, close combat is the order of the day. It also stops a lot of those Battle Focus, flat-out and running around shenanigans, with two problems - first you have to catch them, second Warp Spiders in particular have Hit & Run.

For Wolves in particular I'd suggest using Land Raiders - the lascannons should get glancing hits on Wave Serpents, while you'd have to be very lucky to have a penetrating hit stick those glancing hits are fairly reliable (twin-linked reroll to hit and then 3+ to glance) means with two Land Raiders and perhaps a little fire thrown in from elsewhere you can start taking down Wave Serpents by their Hull Points. Also watch for any that use their shields as a shooting attack - they don't get to use the 2+ pen/glance conversion in your next turn if they do that.
Then, once in combat, look to krak grenades and power fists to finish off what you should have already started. If the units come out before you can assault, you'll have more of a fight on your hands... look to massed firepower to force enough saves to down them, again ignoring any Fortuned units if you can.

For Wraithknights, sniper and poison weapons are their biggest weakness - unfortunately Wolves don't really have access to either so you may have to use allies there.

Lastly, for IG the Leman Russ squadrons comment was correct - you can take a squadron of up to 3 as a single choice. You can also take loads of Guardsmen with special weapons and a command squad that can use an order to give them rerolls. I'd suggest having a flick through the Codex when you get a chance.

Space wolves should have no problem at dealing with Wave Serpents at all, Drop Pod behind them and pop them from behind the shield doesn't help with rear armor.

On top of that WraithKnights hate missiles, throw 2 squads of long fangs at it and it is likely to drop, if not throw the last one in just to make sure.

I personally think SW's drop pods are still beast, drop behind the lines and plasma, melta, combi-melta, combi-plasma, bolter, heavy flamer them to death.

Anything that the SW don't kill on the alpha strike will be able to easily out maneuver the foot slogging SW. However, this seems to be the most solid SW build in general, so its certainly not a tailored solution, if it is indeed a solution.

HQ
Company comand squad 50
Troop
Vet squad 70
Vet squad 70
HS
Leman russ squad
3 X leman russ (BT or Exterminator) 450
Leman russ squad
3 X leman russ (BT or Exterminator) 450
Leman russ squad
3 X leman russ (BT or Exterminator) 450

Total 1540

my bigest F you army specifically reserved for WAAC and TFG players


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which depending on point value you have plenty room for Fliers just for more F you points

M also struggling with this, but drop pods seem to be the best way to run Space Wolves right now. Flood the board with marine bodies and special weapons. Squads get either two melta or plasmaguns and a wolf Standard for any combat they get in. Don't spread out too much. Come down on a flank and try to wipe out as much as you can on one side while trying to limit how much counterfire you can take using terrain and intervening models.

As sad as it makes me Thunderwolf Cavalry are not so great this edition. Eldar can put enough shots in that even without their rending they can take them down, and a wraithknight instant deaths them with every wound. Sure you can give them storm Shields but than you have am 80 point two wound model.

If you give them stormshields, the Eldar player will just target them with mass scatter lasers. The Eldar can bubblewrap war walkers which melt a marine squad every turn, now without farseer buffs!

Ok, I think I've figured out the problem. Your opponent is obviously far more skilled at fielding Eldar than you are at adapting. Declaring a wide number of units in an opposing codes "Cheese" is usually a quick indication.

I suggest you evaluate your current army selection and your tactics and go from there. There are really very very few things that are "Cheese" in 40k right now. You mentioned some effective and good choices, but look first to your own skill mastery, tactics, and army selection before writing an opponent off.

You have to be making some rather large mistakes to be effectively beaten by turn 2 every game.

I wouldn't say the Eldar are "cheese", just have access to huge amounts of S6 shooting. I'm beginning to have bad flashbacks to 2nd edition, though. The amount by which the Eldar outgun marines is pretty disgusting now. And marines aren't that fantastic in hand to hand enough to make up for it.

Zagman wrote:
Ok, I think I've figured out the problem. Your opponent is obviously far more skilled at fielding Eldar than you are at adapting. Declaring a wide number of units in an opposing codes "Cheese" is usually a quick indication.

I suggest you evaluate your current army selection and your tactics and go from there. There are really very very few things that are "Cheese" in 40k right now. You mentioned some effective and good choices, but look first to your own skill mastery, tactics, and army selection before writing an opponent off.

You have to be making some rather large mistakes to be effectively beaten by turn 2 every game.

AAaaaaaand you must be a heavy eldar player.

Eldar shooting does indeed make a mockery of meqs. There's not much mastery, skill or tricks that can mitigate the mathematics of the current situation. Unless you want to be TFG and bring a ton of LOS blocking terrain and insist on using it.

You do realise you have access to a HQ choice, of which you may take four, that can deny any Psychic Power cast on anything with in 24" on a 4+. I play SW quite frequently and this is the single most annoying thing for them. Eldar are a lot less scary without their Psychic Powers. If you can deny even a single Fortune or Conceal a turn, you'll likely heavily mess with his plans.

Also, if you're not averse to allying, take some Tau Allies. Eldar hate Tau and their ability to remove cover. A 2+ re-rollable cover save is fantastic until something just ignores it. You could even ally with GK, take a Librarian and roll on Divination and hope for Perfect Timing. Not as foolproof, but more "fluffy" perhaps.

And this guy runs bare minimum Guardians? Take out his Guardians, he has no way of holding objectives (except for Scouring and BGNT) and you can hold out for a win by holding a single objective.

Zagman wrote:
Ok, I think I've figured out the problem. Your opponent is obviously far more skilled at fielding Eldar than you are at adapting. Declaring a wide number of units in an opposing codes "Cheese" is usually a quick indication.

Oh and this. None of the units you've mentioned would be regarded as cheese and Eldar aren't really regarded as cheese overall, though they are certainly strong. SW faced a lot more accusations of "chesse" when they were released. It's always tricky fighting a new army, stick at it and with practice you'll get much better.

Actually my opponent was only skilled in copy&pasting a list he found online, then buying all units.

I put together almost all of my lists myself, which is what makes the game fun. Don't get me wrong. I try to win. But my lists are usually fun/funny, not WAAC lists.

I'd recommend Drop Pod Melta...and plasma wolf scouts...also the missiles...diversifying your attack will let you strike at the trgets that have or have not used their shields and pick them off

Pyeatt wrote:
Actually my opponent was only skilled in copy&pasting a list he found online, then buying all units.

I put together almost all of my lists myself, which is what makes the game fun. Don't get me wrong. I try to win. But my lists are usually fun/funny, not WAAC lists.

Your attitude doesn't make you sound any better.

Besides complaining about using normal units that you would see I don't see how the Eldar army is cheese, and at a tournament what is cheese even supposed to be?

Being competitive and WAAC are two different things, if you like to go play the fluff/fun/funny route then play players that are like that, that person is obviously more competitive than cheese.

Pyeatt wrote:
Actually my opponent was only skilled in copy&pasting a list he found online, then buying all units.

I put together almost all of my lists myself, which is what makes the game fun. Don't get me wrong. I try to win. But my lists are usually fun/funny, not WAAC lists.

I do have Eldar, in addition to GK and BA. That being said I ran Mechdar in 5th, but got rid of it a while back. Got back into Eldar thanks to the ability to field a Wraith based list and only use one unit you mentioned.

You may not like to hear it, but sounds like he is fielding a much stronger base list than you are and understands how to use it. If you can only kill some warp spiders and a single Serpent all game, then the problem lies with you, not the cheese of his list. Why don't you post his list, then post the lists you have been trying and a summary of the tactics you attempted to employ. Then we can help you, until then this is simple a bitch thread about how you can't adapt to the new dex in town so it must be "cheese".

Yes the new Eldar dex is strong against many marine builds, but that does not mean you cannot do well against it with a sound list and tactics. If he is steamrolling you then he is either an amazing player and that much better than you, or you are using faulty lists and tactics. You are building fun lists, he is building effective lists, may be your first problem right there...

It sounds like you are fair player fielding weak lists and struggling against a player who is using a much stronger list than you. You've got a couple of options, adapt, or keep complaining and losing. Your choice.

Pyeatt wrote:
Actually my opponent was only skilled in copy&pasting a list he found online, then buying all units.

I put together almost all of my lists myself, which is what makes the game fun. Don't get me wrong. I try to win. But my lists are usually fun/funny, not WAAC lists.

I agree with the poster above. The undertones of your words in this thread indicate you are either being inaccurate in your description, or simply need to play people who are fluffy/fun players, not competitive players. The ad-hominem in your descriptions of the player are quite telling, and unfortunately make reason impossible when you are considering this person. In short, chill the hell out if you're actually going to play him, and I hope you realize you're asking for a WAAC list from the internet now.

There's probably not any meq-based list that is going to consistently do well vs Eldar at this point. T4 means nothing and the power armor is bypassed by many Eldar weapons or just mathed through by scatterlasers.

Thunderfire Cannon can ignore cover. Ally with some Vanilla marines for their TFC or three.
And a fluff player is going to lose to a competitive player. Just the way it is amigo. Either learn through good strategy how to beat him or play less competitive people.

Its cool how you want to beat a decked-out space twinkies with pointy ears with your MANLY VIKINGS'O DOOM.

At topic: How about the infamous Relentless Longfang + Bjorn combo? Put HB on the Longfangs and let it rip. Kills just about anything those pointy ears bring.

I'm really shocked that Reapers are cheese now, as well as support batteries, and Wraithfighters? really?

It sounds like a very poor advance by the Sons of Russ. Eldar have great firepower at 12', but really a bunch of guardians hiding in cover with some long range shots from the HS slots isn't that scary.

I'd take that over a IG artillery park any day. You could probably even out shoot it with 3x long fangs in the back field and a bunch of podding grey hunter squads.

With all the pseudo rending Eldar have it almost isn't worth it to use terminators. Just flood the zone with GH and hide the rune priests nearby so they can block the eldar psychic powers and make all the skimmers and jump troops take difficult terrain tests.

I would focus the reapers with your LFs first, then serpents/knight depending on which has the lower cover save and if they fired the serpent shield.