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Ok so here's a little someting I'm not sure about, which I'm open to discussion with. If an artillery unit has Slow and Purposeful, can it move and shoot? Please note that this doesn't actually affect me, as nobody in my gaming group plays artillery (the unit type), so I have no bias Sorry if this has been asked before.

Here's the data (emphasis mine):

Shooting with Artillery, p.46 BRB:
Gun models cannot be fired if they
moved at all in that turn's Movement
phase

Slow and Purposeful, p.42 BRB:
They can,
however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and
Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary
even if they moved

Not sure which takes priority?
I'm thinking they can move and shoot if they are one of the listed types.
Opinions?

What kind of artillery has slow and purposeful?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
What kind of artillery has slow and purposeful?

Ork Artillery with an attached Mekboy in Mega Armour.

I'd say Slow and Purposeful has priority because it is more specific.

With that I mean that the Shooting With Artillery applies to all Artillery, while Spow and Purposeful only applies to those Artillery with SnP.....making it more specific.

'Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turns movement phase' So a model can move and shoot with the gun but if they gun itself moved then it can't be fired?

Slow and purposeful allows you to fire with your own weapons. I'd say the gun doesn't fire itself so it doesn't matter if it has slow and purposeful. And slow and purposeful wouldn't get rid of the fact that 'gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all' since slow and purposeful covers you for your movement, not the movement of the gun.

wtnind wrote:
Slow and purposeful allows you to fire with your own weapons.

That's not what the rule says. It makes no mention of "own weapons".
The effects of SAP apply to the whole unit. The guns are part of the unit.

The S&P rule says that you can fire a certain set of weapons counting as stationary. Artillery are not one of those weapons.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Artillery are not one of those weapons.

That's because Artillery is a Unit Type, not a Weapon Type.
An Ork Kannon is a heavy weapon, for example, and it's in an Artillery unit.

The artillery rules win out. If the rules said that the gun model has to be stationary to be fired, then SnP/Relentless would win. However, the rules specifically say if the model moves it cannot be fired (similar to CM Orbital Bombardment)

 Happyjew wrote:
The artillery rules win out. If the rules said that the gun model has to be stationary to be fired, then SnP/Relentless would win. However, the rules specifically say if the model moves it cannot be fired (similar to CM Orbital Bombardment)

While I agree on principle (Sticking a slow mek in a unit shouldn't make it suddenly able to move and shoot), I think a more in depth view should be taken.
The wording on Heavy weapons (p51): "...carrying a Heavy weapon moved in.."

Actually you know what, I think you're right.
They can fire the weapon counting as stationary, but that doesn't help if they can't fire the weapon at all.

Heavy weapons can fire, but count as moving if they moved, but can then count as staionary.

So it's two parts: Being allowed to fire, and then counting as X.
The artillery would count as stationart, but isn't allowed to fire, because it did in fact move.

 Happyjew wrote:
The artillery rules win out. If the rules said that the gun model has to be stationary to be fired, then SnP/Relentless would win. However, the rules specifically say if the model moves it cannot be fired (similar to CM Orbital Bombardment)

It's the same thing though.
In this case "must be stationary" = "may not move".
It counts as stationary. Stationary means not moving. If it counts as stationary, does it count as having moved?

I don't think 'counting as stationary' would help since it only affects the 'would-be' firing model and not to the artillery model which is the one which has to have not moved in order to fire.

Under normal situations an eldar guardian can move up 1 inch next to an artillery weapon and fire it (as long as the gun itself hasn't moved) without any problems. So counting as stationary yourself doesn't help you out with the restriction on the other model (the artillery piece).

wtnind wrote:
I don't think 'counting as stationary' would help since it only affects the 'would-be' firing model and not to the artillery model which is the one which has to have not moved in order to fire.

Under normal situations an eldar guardian can move up 1 inch next to an artillery weapon and fire it (as long as the gun itself hasn't moved) without any problems. So counting as stationary yourself doesn't help you out with the restriction on the other model (the artillery piece).

But the whole unit counts as stationary, gun models included.

Hard one, It seems like the counting as stationary is meant to apply to firing weapons(in the list), since the artillery model isn't itself making a shooting attack (the shooting model is the firing model) I don't think it would itself count as stationary.

Slow and purposeful doesn't say 'you always count as stationary and never count as having moved'

I would like, if I may, to reword my answer. The artillery rules do take precedence, but not due to the initial reasons I stated.

Relentless/S&P allows a model to fire certain weapon types to be fired as if stationary.
The restriction with artillery has nothing to do with the weapon type. So you end up with the following:

Entire unit moves:
1) Heavy weapons must be fired as Snap Shots (Premise 1)
2) Artillery weapons cannot be fired as Snap Shots. (Restriction 1)
3) Gun models that moved cannot be fired (Restriction 2).
4) S&P/Relentless override P1 thus negating R1.
5) Since R2 has not been overridden, it still applies and the gun model cannot be fired.

 Happyjew wrote:
I would like, if I may, to reword my answer. The artillery rules do take precedence, but not due to the initial reasons I stated.

Relentless/S&P allows a model to fire certain weapon types to be fired as if stationary.
The restriction with artillery has nothing to do with the weapon type. So you end up with the following:

Entire unit moves:
1) Heavy weapons must be fired as Snap Shots (Premise 1)
2) Artillery weapons cannot be fired as Snap Shots. (Restriction 1)
3) Gun models that moved cannot be fired (Restriction 2).
4) S&P/Relentless override P1 thus negating R1.
5) Since R2 has not been overridden, it still applies and the gun model cannot be fired.

Interesting. But it still says "shoot [...] counting as stationary"
If you fire it like it moved, did you count it as stationary?

It shoots as if stationary, but if it moves it can't shoot.
So if it could shoot, it would do so counting as stationary.

There are two restrictions in place:
1) If the gun model moves, the weapon cannot be fired. The weapon could be Assault 10 and if the gun model moves it still cannot fire. This is a restriction on the gun model itself.
2) If a model moves, Heavy weapons can only be fired as snap shots. Artillery cannot be fired as Snap Shots. This is a restriction on weapon type - Heavy "X".

Relentless/S&P only deals with the second restriction, so while that restriction is lifted (the weapon is fired as if the model was stationary, ergo no snap shot, ergo can be fired) but it does not lift the restriction on the model moving.

I think the counting as stationary does remove both restrictions. They count as if they had not moved, even if they did.

If orks are the only one that can do this, then let the ork player try this horribly expensive gimmik, realize it's not worth doing, and he'll stop doing it. If he's taking the mega armor, he's not taking the SAG or KFF.

 Happyjew wrote:

Relentless/S&P only deals with the second restriction, so while that restriction is lifted (the weapon is fired as if the model was stationary, ergo no snap shot, ergo can be fired) but it does not lift the restriction on the model moving.

Citation needed.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Relentless/S&P only deals with the second restriction, so while that restriction is lifted (the weapon is fired as if the model was stationary, ergo no snap shot, ergo can be fired) but it does not lift the restriction on the model moving.

Citation needed.

Both rules say models can fire Heavy, Salvo, and Ordnance weapons counting as stationary.

Not being able to fire the gun model after it moves has nothing to do with with firing a Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance weapon. It is a restriction on the model moving.

Asked pretty much the same thing a while ago

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/502449.page

The answer was quite apt,

I disagree with that answer posted there though. The answer given was basically "you count as not moved, but you still moved", which makes no sense.
@happyjew: to me, "can fire heavy, ordnance and salvo counting as stationary" is permission to fire.
Here is how I think it plays out RAW:
1) are you trying to fire a heavy, ordnance, or salvo weapon?
2)if yes, the model can fire counting as stationary.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I disagree with that answer posted there though. The answer given was basically "you count as not moved, but you still moved", which makes no sense.
@happyjew: to me, "can fire heavy, ordnance and salvo counting as stationary" is permission to fire.
Here is how I think it plays out RAW:
1) are you trying to fire a heavy, ordnance, or salvo weapon?
2)if yes, the model can fire counting as stationary.

Let's look at a slightly different scenario - a squad of Terminators in a Chimera. The Chimera moves 12". What BS is used to resolve the shots from the Terminators through the fire points and why?

 Happyjew wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I disagree with that answer posted there though. The answer given was basically "you count as not moved, but you still moved", which makes no sense.
@happyjew: to me, "can fire heavy, ordnance and salvo counting as stationary" is permission to fire.
Here is how I think it plays out RAW:
1) are you trying to fire a heavy, ordnance, or salvo weapon?
2)if yes, the model can fire counting as stationary.

Let's look at a slightly different scenario - a squad of Terminators in a Chimera. The Chimera moves 12". What BS is used to resolve the shots from the Terminators through the fire points and why?

BS1, because they have to fire snap shots. Note this is not because they count as having moved - quite the opposite in fact - but because moving at cruising speed says you can only fire snap shots.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I disagree with that answer posted there though. The answer given was basically "you count as not moved, but you still moved", which makes no sense.
@happyjew: to me, "can fire heavy, ordnance and salvo counting as stationary" is permission to fire.
Here is how I think it plays out RAW:
1) are you trying to fire a heavy, ordnance, or salvo weapon?
2)if yes, the model can fire counting as stationary.

Let's look at a slightly different scenario - a squad of Terminators in a Chimera. The Chimera moves 12". What BS is used to resolve the shots from the Terminators through the fire points and why?

BS1, because they have to fire snap shots. Note this is not because they count as having moved - quite the opposite in fact - but because moving at cruising speed says you can only fire snap shots.

Right, and Relentless and S&P only deal with firing Heavy/Ordnance/Salvo weapons. Moving the gun model has nothing to do with being able to fire Heavy/Ordnance/Salvo weapons. It is a completely different restriction then the one that Relentless/S&P override.

But the arterilly isnt saying its heavy so cannot be fired if moved, it is saying if it has moved it cannot fire that turn, there is no mention of it not being able to because its heavy. It is quite a blanket restriction

I would still say that the gun is not 'shooting with a heavy/X/Y weapon', the shooting model is the crewman. Therefore the gun would not gain the benefit from the S&P. The crewman would but him counting as stationary doesn't help.

'Firing' and 'being fired by (a crewman)' are different things

 Happyjew wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I disagree with that answer posted there though. The answer given was basically "you count as not moved, but you still moved", which makes no sense.
@happyjew: to me, "can fire heavy, ordnance and salvo counting as stationary" is permission to fire.
Here is how I think it plays out RAW:
1) are you trying to fire a heavy, ordnance, or salvo weapon?
2)if yes, the model can fire counting as stationary.

Let's look at a slightly different scenario - a squad of Terminators in a Chimera. The Chimera moves 12". What BS is used to resolve the shots from the Terminators through the fire points and why?

BS1, because they have to fire snap shots. Note this is not because they count as having moved - quite the opposite in fact - but because moving at cruising speed says you can only fire snap shots.

Right, and Relentless and S&P only deal with firing Heavy/Ordnance/Salvo weapons. Moving the gun model has nothing to do with being able to fire Heavy/Ordnance/Salvo weapons. It is a completely different restriction then the one that Relentless/S&P override.

No no I get that, but I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I'm talking incredibly strict RAW here.
By my interpretation, if the artillery was an assault weapon, it would not be able to fire. I'm simply saying that the actual wording of S&P gives permission to fire heavy, ordnance and salvo, counting as stationary. If the only restriction it was talking about was snap shots, then salvo weapons would not be covered, would they? I don't think it is RAI, but can you see what I'm trying to say, strictly RAW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wtnind wrote:
I would still say that the gun is not 'shooting with a heavy/X/Y weapon', the shooting model is the crewman. Therefore the gun would not gain the benefit from the S&P. The crewman would but him counting as stationary doesn't help.

'Firing' and 'being fired by (a crewman)' are different things

Read the wording of slow and purposeful. The whole unit benefits, this would include gun models.

Right, you are given permission to fire weapons as if you had been stationary. However, "Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase" has nothing to do with firing Heavy weapons. It is an additional restriction.