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Typing on phone. I remember croak can keep casting if he has power dice. Does that override insufficient power that should end his turn?

Also from memory, it overrides insufficient power but not broken concentration. Unless they work out the same and I am mistaken...

Overrides broken concentration, as he is given explicit permission to cast as many times as he has power dice

So long as you use at least 3 dice per casting, you have 0% chance of not being able to cast it again that phase (power dice permitting)

what if he rolls two

Then he risks getting Double one and not being able to cast it again that turn.

Which is where the semantic arguement comes in - there was a thread a few months ago debating whether double one (broken concentration) sopped it. Don't remember if there was a verdict.

Kroak + Tetto + Cloak of Feathers Priest is brutal.
Tetto allows 1's to be re-rolls, the priest can fly and the priest is the Arcane Vassal for the spell.

The priest vanguards forward in a skink meat shield (Tetto gives vanguard), and turn 1, the priest flies out into the middle of the enemy and... cue Deliverance.

-Matt

Well, remember that it is still a DD and only affects enemies in the frontal arc even though it says "all within x".

Well i'd disagree as it says all enemies within x". Not all enemies within x" in the casters front arc and LOS.

Direct damage specifically states the target(s) must lie within the frontal arc. It doesn't care about LoS, though. If they wanted it to affect a 360 degree arc, it would have been given a no spell type similar to how the FAQ made The Penumbral Pendulum have no spell type to allow it to work in combat.

If they had given it no Spell type, then it wouldn't have been able to be cast through Skinks.

I'd say its specific enough to say all models in x" so it overrides the Rulebook restriction on front arc.

If they wanted that, they should have said "All enemies units within x, regardless of whether they are In the frontal arc" or "Ignore the frontal arc restriction".

RAW, it is still frontal arc. The spell does nothing to tell you to ignore the Frontal Arc restriction. Whether that is RAI, we will have to wait and see if they address it in a FAQ.

As to casting it through a Skink, they could have easily added "This spell is treated as a Direct Damage spell for the purposes of the Vassal rule." (I think that is what that rule is called. I am at a restaurant right now and no book )

The fact that the army book defines it as DD means that the front arc restrictions apply. If they were intended not to apply, it could have been written easily, as suggested above.

What about losing concentration?

Davall wrote:
If they wanted that, they should have said "All enemies units within x, regardless of whether they are In the frontal arc" or "Ignore the frontal arc restriction".

RAW, it is still frontal arc. The spell does nothing to tell you to ignore the Frontal Arc restriction. Whether that is RAI, we will have to wait and see if they address it in a FAQ.

As to casting it through a Skink, they could have easily added "This spell is treated as a Direct Damage spell for the purposes of the Vassal rule." (I think that is what that rule is called. I am at a restaurant right now and no book )

As Long as one Unit is within the Front Arc, (Initial Target) Then all Units with X inches would be affected, As Per the Basic rule, you can only target "a" unit in you front arc, Then The Special Rule from Army book kicks in where, All Units with X suffer Y damage. At least that is how I read it Based on the RAW.

We all know that GW does very limited prof reading of their books before they go out presses. But yes it needs to be emailed to GW to get clarified.

The spell says all enemy units; there is no targetting a single unit and going from there as the spell does not tell you that. The target is all of them within range.

The spell is still a Direct Damage and it doesn't give any permission to break the 4 basic targeting rules for such spells. The BRB says "unless stated otherwise", and there is nothing that says to ignore the frontal arc restriction, nor the unengaged restriction. This makes targetting anything engaged and outside of the front arc illegal, so you ignore them.

Right now, that spell is not very good. It will take a FAQ to make it work how it seems like it should, aka in a 360 degree bubble and regardless of whether the enemy is engaged.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Kroak + Tetto + Cloak of Feathers Priest is brutal.
Tetto allows 1's to be re-rolls, the priest can fly and the priest is the Arcane Vassal for the spell.

The priest vanguards forward in a skink meat shield (Tetto gives vanguard), and turn 1, the priest flies out into the middle of the enemy and... cue Deliverance.

-Matt

Yeah, that's just playing mean (although quite expensive, of course).

The LOS restriction is just for targeting. The skink doesn't have to target anything, so the spell goes off even if nothing is in LOS.

When the spell goes off, all units within X are hit, per the spell description.

Within the frontal arc and unengaged as the Direct Damage spell restrictions says.

It's not rocket science. It may get FAQ'd but the RAW is crystal clear.

The lore attribute for beasts mentions targetting multiple units. You still have to be able to target the units to cast the spell unless it is given explicit permission, or is an non typed spell. Kroak's spell does neither.

*final edit* I am not going to turn this into a "Uh huh! Nut uh!" 9 page argument. I have posted mine with appropriate rules to back it up. If someone else wants to pick the torch up, be my guest

I think this one is pretty clear, actually.

P.31 of the BRB tells us the 4 restrictions of choosing a target.

P. 52 of the Lizardmen army book makes a clear exception for Kroak's spell - it specifies that it targets all units within 12", not just the ones in the forward arc. By this exception, it would also target units in engaged in combat.

Clarence wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear, actually.

P.31 of the BRB tells us the 4 restrictions of choosing a target.

P. 52 of the Lizardmen army book makes a clear exception for Kroak's spell - it specifies that it targets all units within 12", not just the ones in the forward arc. By this exception, it would also target units in engaged in combat.

It's the same crappy editing we can expect from GW.
Army book is > than BRB when in conflict; but we are given no guidance to what counts as a conflict.
Do they mean targets all enemies out of combat and in forward arc; because normally you can only target 1 unit; or do they mean that units out of arc, and in combat are also targeted?

I'll wait for the FAQ. For now, I won't be running Kroak, as I don't think the S4 hits are all that good anyway.

-Matt

My opinion on conflict is you mesh as many things from the Army book into the BRB so that there is no conflict.

All enemies within 12", within forward arc, not in CC.

I believe that satisfies everything in the Army book and doesn't break anything in the BRB. It's not super great, unless you start triangulating with priests. But even then, once in CC it's over.

Clarence wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear, actually.

P.31 of the BRB tells us the 4 restrictions of choosing a target.

P. 52 of the Lizardmen army book makes a clear exception for Kroak's spell - it specifies that it targets all units within 12", not just the ones in the forward arc. By this exception, it would also target units in engaged in combat.

The header for that section: "Targeting Restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply."

The Deliverance of ITZA:

"... is a direct damage spell that targets all enemy units within 12".

I don't see how you can claim it is still bound by the forward arc restriction when clearly there is an exception in the Lizardman book that is authorized by the header in the BRB for casting.

It's certainly not a "clear exception.

All enemy units within 12"

and

Target must be within the Wizard's forward arc

Are not necessarily mutually-exclusive. They can easily be complimentary. All enemy units in forward arc and within 12". The only hitch is ALL enemy units.

The "all" part just makes it so multiple enemy units can be affected. It doesn't spell out an exception to the targeting rules.

This is very similar to the Skaven Doom Wheel discussion. House rule it until there is an FAQ :(

If Itza goes 360 does that mean I can cast Glean Magic ("DD that targets a single enemy wizard within 12"") in 360? Or can I use Foot of Gork in combat since it says, "place the template within 36"?"

No. The discrepency would be because it is all units within a distance. Just now it has to be front arc.

 Leith wrote:
If Itza goes 360 does that mean I can cast Glean Magic ("DD that targets a single enemy wizard within 12"") in 360? Or can I use Foot of Gork in combat since it says, "place the template within 36"?"

Neither of those say "All units within x".

Given that the power affected a 360 degree arc in the prior book, and the rules hear are pretty much the same, and the BRB does not say otherwise, I'm using it as a 360 spell. It is the same as the Ark of Sotek or the Celestial Engine.

Really guys. The Storm of magic has a bunch of spells that hit "all units within x" and I don't see a dozen threads arguing that they all must only work in the front arc.