Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I kind of assumed up till now that all pre-heresy Primarchs were equal in rank (except for Horus of course). But just been reading 'The Dark King' in which Dorn issues Kurze with an explicit 'order' (or attempts to). I wondered if this could be something to do with their order of discovery (or the number of the legion.) or whether a single Primarch might be given overall command of a particular mission. I expect there's no official answer and I appreciate that this isn't a reliable source of fluff, but just wondering what dakka thought.

On a related note Dorn has grey (or white) hair and is referred to as 'The Old General' somewhere, whereas other Primarchs seem younger. Could this be something to do with the passage through the warp and strange effects on time?

They are all the same age and, until Horus was declared Warmaster, the same rank. Physiological differences surfaced in their upbringings.

Not quite. Dorn was the Emperor's Praetorian, so he slightly outranks the other Primarch's except for Horus.

Then we take russ... who was the executioner, Dorn who was in command of terra's defences... They were all equal except the warmaster... but all had a different task? Thats what i think anyways

Dorn doesn't outrank Curze, he's just a pompous ass who thinks he does.

Horus as Warmaster, then his brothers all at the same level. Being the Praetorian didn't make Dorn any more special, he just got to stay at home and water the plants whilst everyone else was off fighting and earning glory.

During the Heresy it became Dorn then his loyalist brothers as essentially he was Warmaster in all but name during the absence of the Emperor.

Dorn doesn't think he out ranks Curze at all, it's just his methods that he calls into question as they don't follow the credos of the Imperium. If there wasn't reason from Dorn to reprimand him then why would he.

Russ was never ranked the executioner. He just had a reputation for such a deed/s...

It was also a self given title. He and the Wolve's considered themselves as such but were never awarded an official title or considered to be by the other legions.

And Mortarion with his great scythe was the Emperor's gardener, that's why the Death Guard had green as one of their colours.
Death and decay are also part of the gardening lifecycle.

Yeah okay, I made that up, but it fits quite well. Now Mortarion is Nurgle's gardener.

Dorn was never Emperor's pretorian officialy but we all know who guarded him, we also know who was Emperor's butcher, who was Emperos sorcerer, and who was Emperor's whiney kid, and who was Empy's attack dog....


You don't need freaking quote to tell you how someone is portrayed in books...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rems01 wrote:
It was also a self given title. He and the Wolve's considered themselves as such but were never awarded an official title or considered to be by the other legions.

First time someone used that word is Longfang or Hawser ( when Longfang told him that they get the dirtiest jobs ), and later Hawser gets a deamonic vision of Horus which tells him that he want's to remove Executioners and Sorceres from his way to Terra.....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 purplefood wrote:
Russ was never ranked the executioner. He just had a reputation for such a deed/s...

Actually more like a big E's attack dog...but yes....

So Horus was found first, was the greatest, and spend 30+ years with Big E alone. He is unquestionably #1

Russ was found second

<Deleted from Imperial Records> was found third, so perhaps order of founding doesnt matter too much

Alpharius and Omegan are twins, so they are only half as valuable / important as the other primarchs when they are lone. Also they were the only Primarch not found by the Emperor(and the only ones to launch a stealth attack on the IoM before being discovered and the only ones to have traveled the stars before being discovered)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Then we take russ... who was the executioner, Dorn who was in command of terra's defences... They were all equal except the warmaster... but all had a different task? Thats what i think anyways

Terra didnt need defenses until Horus turned

The dont have specific ranks (except horus) but some were generally more respected and well thought of than others. For example not many primarchs trusted angron or really listened to anything he said, but then you have people like guillman and the Lion who were the opposite.

 WE Drake Man wrote:
The dont have specific ranks (except horus) but some were generally more respected and well thought of than others. For example not many primarchs trusted angron or really listened to anything he said, but then you have people like guillman and the Lion who were the opposite.

everyone be loving Kruze

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Dorn doesn't think he out ranks Curze at all, it's just his methods that he calls into question as they don't follow the credos of the Imperium. If there wasn't reason from Dorn to reprimand him then why would he.

He felt he had the power to reprimand him for... Killing someone who fired on him?

Some dumb gak like that, it has been a while since I listed to The Dark King.

He then felt he could sanction and imprison Curze for telling Fulgrim about a vision he saw of the Emperor killing him, lol.

Dorn is a pompous, mentally unstable clown.

That he gave an order does not explicitly mean he has a higher rank. He could have been tasked with an order that granted him authority on that matter.

For instance if he is ordered to see to the Palace's defenses the order implies authority as that always goes hand in hand with responsibility (can't be responsible if you don't have authority over it).

As others have stated, the primarchs are all the same age, and the same rank. It was only when the Emperor named Horus, that there was one brother above the others. However it should be noted that the order in which they were rediscovered also played a role in how they viewed each other. Especially since some of the legions would work with/under another legion until they were deemed to be independent. For example, Fulgrim spent time working with/under Horus, learning the ropes, etc IIRC.

I think personality also influences who is viewed as an older sibling. For example, Lorgar and Fulgrim are sometimes talked to in a tone that implies their status as a "younger" brother, even though they may have been found earlier than the rest.

With regard to ordering each other around, I actually feel it has to do with orders coming from Terra. The brothers don't have to listen to each other, but the results aren't usually pretty.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Dorn doesn't think he out ranks Curze at all, it's just his methods that he calls into question as they don't follow the credos of the Imperium. If there wasn't reason from Dorn to reprimand him then why would he.

He felt he had the power to reprimand him for... Killing someone who fired on him?

Some dumb gak like that, it has been a while since I listed to The Dark King.

He then felt he could sanction and imprison Curze for telling Fulgrim about a vision he saw of the Emperor killing him, lol.

Dorn is a pompous, mentally unstable clown.

He reprimanded him because even though the campaign was completed and the enemy had surrendered, Kurze was rounding up all surviving civilians to skin them all alive. The killing of the shooter was his way of making the argument that unless you skin alive everyone everywhere always, they will eventually turn against you. As for visions, that's the kind of stuff that gets you sanctioned when combined with the aforementioned skinning of Imperial citizens and a mindless, brutal, near-lethal attack on a fellow Primarch.

Dorn was a pompous clown, but there is nothing defensible about Kurze, he was far more twisted and broken than even Angron.

 Omegus wrote:

He reprimanded him because even though the campaign was completed and the enemy had surrendered, Kurze was rounding up all surviving civilians to skin them all alive. The killing of the shooter was his way of making the argument that unless you skin alive everyone everywhere always, they will eventually turn against you. As for visions, that's the kind of stuff that gets you sanctioned when combined with the aforementioned skinning of Imperial citizens and a mindless, brutal, near-lethal attack on a fellow Primarch.

Dorn was a pompous clown, but there is nothing defensible about Kurze, he was far more twisted and broken than even Angron.

Is that really any more brutal than the Space Wolve's only participating in campaigns of genocide (They are so famous for this and so brutal in carrying it out that some Imperial forces actively refuse to request their aid, which when put like that actually sounds kind of dumb), or Angron's mindless slaughter of civilians. I know, Angron was sanctioned, but only after he began implementing the Butcher's Nails in his legion. Actually, Angron's sanctioning is a good example of the "right" way for Primarchs to push towards sanctioning a wayward brother. Guilliman did not try to assert authority over Angron, but did speak out against him openly (Though for a while he was sort of ignored due to Horus' favor), and eventually action was taken (Albeit action that makes the Emperor look like an idiot, but that is par the course for him). Dorn had reason to have serious reservations about Curze reaving across the galaxy as he did, but physically detaining him and asserting authority he did not have was the wrong way to do it, which makes sense because Dorn is by far the most mentally unwell of the Primarchs.

Because having delusions of superiority is way worse than slaughtering people...

Zanderchief wrote:
Because having delusions of superiority is way worse than slaughtering people...

Yeah, that's way worse then feeling the need to SKIN people ALIVE.

 Exergy wrote:

 WE Drake Man wrote:
The dont have specific ranks (except horus) but some were generally more respected and well thought of than others. For example not many primarchs trusted angron or really listened to anything he said, but then you have people like guillman and the Lion who were the opposite.

everyone be loving Kruze

It's Curze - and yes, what's not to love ? The guy is 100 % himslef and skinning was so popular in 30k....

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Is that really any more brutal than the Space Wolve's only participating in campaigns of genocide (They are so famous for this and so brutal in carrying it out that some Imperial forces actively refuse to request their aid, which when put like that actually sounds kind of dumb), or Angron's mindless slaughter of civilians. I know, Angron was sanctioned, but only after he began implementing the Butcher's Nails in his legion. Actually, Angron's sanctioning is a good example of the "right" way for Primarchs to push towards sanctioning a wayward brother. Guilliman did not try to assert authority over Angron, but did speak out against him openly (Though for a while he was sort of ignored due to Horus' favor), and eventually action was taken (Albeit action that makes the Emperor look like an idiot, but that is par the course for him). Dorn had reason to have serious reservations about Curze reaving across the galaxy as he did, but physically detaining him and asserting authority he did not have was the wrong way to do it, which makes sense because Dorn is by far the most mentally unwell of the Primarchs.

I think Curze's detention only came about after he had attacked Dorn, not before. He was in his quarters at the time Dorn came to visit him, but it doesn't say he was quarantined at this time, just that Dorn was going to have words with him.
A Primarch attacking and nearly killing another Primarch, outside of the practice cages, is maybe enough to get one in trouble.

Dorn might be mentally unwell towards the end of the Heresy but here, not so much. Curze on the other hand is just mental.

Yeah Dorn went mental ater All-Father died ( or just badly stomped)...He was so cool in the early days of 40 k ( I remeber him as such)....

He started going mental around the time when he discovered Horus' betrayal, and started murdering remembrancers and crying about ruining the architecture with gun emplacements.

They should have given his job to Perturabo.

Yeah, he wasn't mental....

Zanderchief wrote:
Because having delusions of superiority is way worse than slaughtering people...

Are you implying that Dorn has never slaughtered people?

Every Primarch, to a man, has killed more people (Not even counting sentient xenos) than every dictator to ever exist.

Dorn is a fruit loop who always takes the most heavy-handed action possible even if it is a bad or silly idea.

I literally lol'd when I found out that this dude keeps all of his psykers locked in a basement with no outside contact after the Council of Nikaea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
He started going mental around the time when he discovered Horus' betrayal, and started murdering remembrancers and crying about ruining the architecture with gun emplacements.

They should have given his job to Perturabo.

That too.

"WHY DO I HAVE TO MAKE THE IMPERIAL PALACE SO UGLY!? "

"Uh... Because these additions make the palace a more defensible positi-"

"BUT IT'S UGLY!"

Also, apparently he mentally blocked Curze's existence out of his mind after Curze nearly killed him. What a weird dude, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I think Curze's detention only came about after he had attacked Dorn, not before. He was in his quarters at the time Dorn came to visit him, but it doesn't say he was quarantined at this time, just that Dorn was going to have words with him.
A Primarch attacking and nearly killing another Primarch, outside of the practice cages, is maybe enough to get one in trouble.

Dorn might be mentally unwell towards the end of the Heresy but here, not so much. Curze on the other hand is just mental.

Dorn was trying to flex his e-peen on Curze since the beginning of that story, when Curze was making examples of a captured population so they would learn to fear the Imperium. Dorn of course came to visit

Also, the text in Index Astartes at least says nothing about Curze attacking Dorn unprovoked, Dorn took Curze's visions as an insult to the Emperor and went to him running on rage-juice. It is no fault of Curze's that Dorn's bluster far outstrips his fighting ability.

Dorn is a psychopathic manchild of the highest order, it is fortunate that his insanity comes at the expense of legitimate competence.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Dorn was trying to flex his e-peen on Curze since the beginning of that story, when Curze was making examples of a captured population so they would learn to fear the Imperium. Dorn of course came to visit

Also, the text in Index Astartes at least says nothing about Curze attacking Dorn unprovoked, Dorn took Curze's visions as an insult to the Emperor and went to him running on rage-juice. It is no fault of Curze's that Dorn's bluster far outstrips his fighting ability.

Dorn is a psychopathic manchild of the highest order, it is fortunate that his insanity comes at the expense of legitimate competence.

And your point? Dorn upholds the ideals of the Imperium, Curze does not and has a whole whack job outlook on it, hence the whole altercation. The Emperor set out those ideals and all should be followed, Dorn is enforcing his fathers will the only way he can against his brother, with words, as there is little else he can do as it's those same ideals that prevent him from taking other action.

The IA doesn't, but the Dark King and Lightning Tower does, Dorn rages at Curze about his blood letting and nutiness and Curze, ever the fruit loop, throws a strop and attacks Dorn.

Do we have any proof of Dorns fighting prowess Primarch vs Primarch other than the unexpected bitch attack that Curze launched on him, none that I can think of.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

And your point? Dorn upholds the ideals of the Imperium, Curze does not and has a whole whack job outlook on it, hence the whole altercation. The Emperor set out those ideals and all should be followed, Dorn is enforcing his fathers will the only way he can against his brother, with words, as there is little else he can do as it's those same ideals that prevent him from taking other action.

Whether or not Dorn upholds the ideals of the Imperium is entirely irrelevant to the fact that he has absolutely no authority over Curze. If he wished to petition a sanction for Curze, it would be in his right to do so, but trying to personally detain him was overstepping his boundaries, and he was nearly killed for the effort.

The IA doesn't, but the Dark King and Lightning Tower does, Dorn rages at Curze about his blood letting and nutiness and Curze, ever the fruit loop, throws a strop and attacks Dorn.

I've listened to the Dark King and the Lightning Tower. At no point is the altercation proper described in much detail, in the Dark King only some events leading up to it and Curze's escapades directly after. In the Lightning Tower Dorn just reminisces about how pants-shittingly terrified he is of Curze, and indeed he apparently mentally blocked Curze as a person out from his mind, because he was that terrified of him (And that mentally unstable of course).

Do we have any proof of Dorns fighting prowess Primarch vs Primarch other than the unexpected bitch attack that Curze launched on him, none that I can think of.

Well first of all, when I said competence, I meant in general, not just in terms of personal combat (Dorn is really just a watered diet coke version of Perturabo in almost all things, except insanity).

But unexpected bitch attack? Dorn provoked the altercation like the unstable hothead he is, and Curze was unarmed. Yet Curze beat his ass so badly that he had torn flesh from Dorn's chest with his bare fingers and, of course, forced Dorn to mentally block the instance.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Whether or not Dorn upholds the ideals of the Imperium is entirely irrelevant to the fact that he has absolutely no authority over Curze. If he wished to petition a sanction for Curze, it would be in his right to do so, but trying to personally detain him was overstepping his boundaries, and he was nearly killed for the effort.

Which is like I said, reading the Dark King seems to suggest that Curze was only confined after he had attacked Dorn.

Dark King p8

'Then I must await the judgement of my peers, is that it?'
'With respect, my lord, you did draw the blood of a brother Primarch.'
'And for that they will demand blood in return, no doubt...'

Attacking a brother Primarch might be one of the occasions that they do have the ability to act out certain rules on each other, it also wasn't solely Dorn's decision to confine Curze.

Dark King p8

Dorn and Fulgrim were taking no chances with his confinement.

Also the IA article confirms this

IA: Night Lords

The events immediately following this incident are not recorded, but it appears that the Primarchs held a conference amongst themselves, with Night Haunter exiled to his chambers.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I've listened to the Dark King and the Lightning Tower. At no point is the altercation proper described in much detail, in the Dark King only some events leading up to it and Curze's escapades directly after. In the Lightning Tower Dorn just reminisces about how pants-shittingly terrified he is of Curze, and indeed he apparently mentally blocked Curze as a person out from his mind, because he was that terrified of him (And that mentally unstable of course).

And what more do we need to know about the altercation, we have both accounts that confirm the same thing, Dorn went to Curze and Curze attacked him. Do we need to know a word for word, blow for blow description.

Dark King p8

He remembered Dorn coming to his chambers, enraged by the slaughters on Cheraut and incensed at what Fulgrim had told him

The Lightning Tower p14

'You confronted Curze?'
'And he attacked me. He would have killed me, I think. He is insane.

And haunting someones thoughts doesn't sound much like they have blocked that person out either.

The Lightning Tower p14

Dorn sat back and breathed out. 'He has haunted me, I confess. All this time,
he has haunted me.'

Curze clearly rattles Dorns pole and gaks him up, but he hasn't blocked him out.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Well first of all, when I said competence, I meant in general, not just in terms of personal combat (Dorn is really just a watered diet coke version of Perturabo in almost all things, except insanity).

But unexpected bitch attack? Dorn provoked the altercation like the unstable hothead he is, and Curze was unarmed. Yet Curze beat his ass so badly that he had torn flesh from Dorn's chest with his bare fingers and, of course, forced Dorn to mentally block the instance.

You did true, but I was referencing your point where you say

 Void__Dragon wrote:

It is no fault of Curze's that Dorn's bluster far outstrips his fighting ability.

Dorn was clearly not expecting a fight, he wasn't decked out for combat, he was wearing robes

IA: Night Lords

Lying on the stone floor, breathing shallowly, was Rogal Dorn. Blood soaked his robes

Dark King p4

A giant in torn golden robes, his bone-white hair spattered with gleaming ruby droplets.

So yeah, an unexpected attack I would say and not that difficult for a Primarch to gouge wounds out of someone not wearing armour. It was pretty naive of Dorn to go to Curze, not expecting trouble, especially when he was about to verbally tear him a new one, or that was his intention to at least. But if Dorn was going to have a fight, he would have at least taken his chainsword. He might be nuts, but he isn't dumb.

My point was, in a straight up fight do we know how each one would fare?