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So... usually I used to believe that once a unit is in base to base... your unit is engaged... and can no longer fire over watch... but this gentleman makes a convincing argument that we've all been doing it wrong...

http://baals-2-the-waals.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-overwatch-works-reasoning-behind-my.html

This is not a new argument. If you search the forum for overwatch i'm sure you'll find a comprehensive break down of both sides.

HIWPI: a model is engaged once they're in base to base contact, regardless of sub-phase.

There is one glaring problem I see with his interpretation. Although the definition of 'Locked' is found in the Fight sub-phase section, nowhere does it state that it only applies during this sub-phase.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
There is one glaring problem I see with his interpretation. Although the definition of 'Locked' is found in the Fight sub-phase section, nowhere does it state that it only applies during this sub-phase.

Yeah if it just applied then we could all shoot and such in the next shooting phases if combat doesn't end that turn.

I checked my Rule book and at the end of the assault movement the models in base contact count as fighting.

Could someone check the last sentence for Assault movement in the English BRB version, i only have a German version and it would be interesting if the wording is similar.

This thread is on the same topic with links to other threads. Read them and discuss with your group.

Silly.

Receiving a charge puts them in combat. You cannot charge something without engaging them.

Bigfashizzel wrote:
Receiving a charge puts them in combat. You cannot charge something without engaging them.

And along that line of thought I give you these rules:

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23)

If getting one model in base contact means the unit is locked in combat, then you can not even move the rest of your charging models, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Is the charge move a pile in move?

P.24 defines what Locked in combat means. it also describes this in the Fight Sub-phase, but it is not limited to the Fight Sub-phase, as you can be locked in combat in the movement and assault phases as well.

So as soon as a charging unit has a model in base contact Either:

A) That unit is not locked in combat until some later point so the rest of the charging unit is free to move the rest of the charging models.
Or
B) That unit is locked in combat as soon as that unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" and the charging unit is not free to move the rest of the charging models.

Option B breaks rules and If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules, so we default to it being option A.

TLDR: Read the threads linked, come to a consensus on it with your opponents before the game on how you are going to play it because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum

If getting one model in base contact means the unit is locked in combat, then you can not even move the rest of your charging models, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

But "Charge Move" on page 21 gives you permission to move all the models in the charging unit.
I think that overrules the "units locked in combat can't move" from page 23.

come to a consensus on it with your opponents

I can already predict that people with shooty armies will generally say that you can still overwatch, while the melee-armies tend to go for "no, they are locked in combat."
Being objective about this sort of stuff is really not a basic human trait

the log is posted by a douche bag, we went over this on our FGS Tournament committee with some scrutiny and decided and found no way to interpret it in his way and we even went as far as to get our other FGS committee involved and it was a unanimous 15-0 hell no

 DeathReaper wrote:

A) That unit is not locked in combat until some later point so the rest of the charging unit is free to move the rest of the charging models.
Or
B) That unit is locked in combat as soon as that unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" and the charging unit is not free to move the rest of the charging models.

Option B breaks rules and If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules, so we default to it being option A.

TLDR: Read the threads linked, come to a consensus on it with your opponents before the game on how you are going to play it because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum

Tags an incorrect representation of option B and you know it. Please do not be dishonest.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

A) That unit is not locked in combat until some later point so the rest of the charging unit is free to move the rest of the charging models.
Or
B) That unit is locked in combat as soon as that unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" and the charging unit is not free to move the rest of the charging models.

Option B breaks rules and If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules, so we default to it being option A.

TLDR: Read the threads linked, come to a consensus on it with your opponents before the game on how you are going to play it because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum

Tags an incorrect representation of option B and you know it. Please do not be dishonest.

And this is why I just linked the thread. My personal belief is that a unit is only locked from the start of the following Fight sub-phase until combat is resolved. HIPI is that the first unit in base contact locks the unit.

From evidence given already:

I interpret the moment another model touches another it is locked in combat and that condition is applied across all phases in the game.
If not for that very distinct rule you could argue the assaults were "simultaneous" and some choice could be made.

My Opinion
This would remove some degree of tactics on the assaulting unit, i.e. send in fodder unit, get shot up, send in second "good unit" in the same assault phase.
It "should" reward good tactics.
For a shooty army to sit back and ignore the first assaulting unit and shoot the "good" one just gives even more advantage, never mind the new rules for supporting overwatch fire.
It makes for such a nice argument for Tau armies...

Kangodo wrote:

If getting one model in base contact means the unit is locked in combat, then you can not even move the rest of your charging models, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

But "Charge Move" on page 21 gives you permission to move all the models in the charging unit.
I think that overrules the "units locked in combat can't move" from page 23.

come to a consensus on it with your opponents

I can already predict that people with shooty armies will generally say that you can still overwatch, while the melee-armies tend to go for "no, they are locked in combat."
Being objective about this sort of stuff is really not a basic human trait

Can't trumps must in a permissive ruleset unless there is a specific exception like you can't assault on the turn you enter from reserves, but Vanguard vets say that you can assault on the turn you enter from reserves if you have jump packs and use them to DS in. The permission specifically addresses the restriction and as such over-rides it.

There is no such specific permission in the charge move to over-ride locked in combat saying you cant move unless it is a pile in move whilst you have 1 or more models in base contact.

But all of this has been covered in those linked threads.

Read them and come to a consensus with your opponent pre-game.

So if units are only considered locked in combat in the fight sub-phase, does that mean you can shoot into a combat in the shooting phase and move out of a combat in the movement phase?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So if units are only considered locked in combat in the fight sub-phase, does that mean you can shoot into a combat in the shooting phase and move out of a combat in the movement phase?

The underlined is incorrect, I do not think anyone said that...

Locked is an ongoing condition, that is the whole point of the contention.

The locked condition is described in the fight subphase, but anytime a model is in base contact with an enemy model those units are locked in combat.

Either this means, if you declare a charge you are not locked until the fight subphase and can continue moving charging models as normal, and will continue to be locked until you are no longer in base contact with an enemy model. Or They are locked at anytime there is one or more models in base contact with an enemy model and as such you can not move anything but the first charging model because charge moves are not Pile in moves, and the only move you can make whist locked are pile in moves.

But seriously all of this info is in one of the linked threads.

Read it, Discuss it with your group, come to an agreement pre-game.

DR - no, you're incorrectly representing the other option. Again. Please stop doing so.

rigeld2 wrote:
DR - no, you're incorrectly representing the other option. Again. Please stop doing so.

I am not misrepresenting anything...

When are units locked in combat? (A: anytime a unit has one or more models in base contact. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23))

Can a unit move whilst locked in combat? (A: No, except for pile in moves "While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23))

Is the charge move a Pile in move? (A: No, it does not say that it is a pile in move, so it is not, due to the permissive ruleset).

IMO the rules are a bit broken. Either way you have to break one of the rules.


HIWPI - Locked in combat once the unit has completed its charge.

One of the things that convinced me (while reading another thread) is unlike most other actions, charging is done one unit at a time sequential. As not many sub phases or phases work like this in 40k, from my POV it seems to me to be intentional. If charging was simultaneous, then it would obviosly be different. It would have been easy to say its simultaneous to clear this, rather than pointing out this action spercifically is not.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
DR - no, you're incorrectly representing the other option. Again. Please stop doing so.

I am not misrepresenting anything...

When are units locked in combat? (A: anytime a unit has one or more models in base contact. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23))

Can a unit move whilst locked in combat? (A: No, except for pile in moves "While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23))

Is the charge move a Pile in move? (A: No, it does not say that it is a pile in move, so it is not, due to the permissive ruleset).

Yes, you are misrepresenting. You're assuming, like you always have, that you check for locked during the charge move. There's literally zero rules to support that.
You check when you're told to check. As I've said in every thread about this and you've ignored.

While RAW could be interpreted to mean that a charging unit could not move the rest of its models into combat, per the "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot" (23), I don't think the other side is clearly wrong either, per "Charge Move" on page 21 gives you permission to move all the models in the charging unit..

Definitely conflicting rules in the BRB right there, but once locked, the unit being charged most definitely cannot fire Overwatch again.

Regarding the Charge Move being a Pile In move, it certainly grants the same function as a Pile In move, though not stated that it specifically is a Pile In move. We Yanks come up with the craziest loopholes That's why we have so many lawyers making billions of dollars.....alas, I'm not one of them :(

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
DR - no, you're incorrectly representing the other option. Again. Please stop doing so.

I am not misrepresenting anything...

When are units locked in combat? (A: anytime a unit has one or more models in base contact. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23))

Can a unit move whilst locked in combat? (A: No, except for pile in moves "While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23))

Is the charge move a Pile in move? (A: No, it does not say that it is a pile in move, so it is not, due to the permissive ruleset).

Yes, you are misrepresenting. You're assuming, like you always have, that you check for locked during the charge move. There's literally zero rules to support that.
You check when you're told to check. As I've said in every thread about this and you've ignored.

You always have to check as Locked applied at all times if a model is in base contact with an enemy model...

this is actually quite clear and I do not see how anyone can interpret the rules like I've seen above tbh....

P21 clearly states that all models in the charging unit move.

P21 also states that a charged unit resolves it's overwatch (if it wants to) after a charge has been declared against the unit.

P23 clearly states that a unit is considered locked in combat when an enemy is in base contact.

the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

P21 overwatch rules state that if you are locked in combat then you cannot overwatch, as you are considered locked in combat when an enemy unit reaches you you cannot shoot at any other units that charge, since each charge is resolved before you reach the fight sub phase.

its very clear and people trying to indicate otherwise are trying to bend/cheat the rules to give the shooters game more advantages it doesn't really need.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

To the people that are saying that you are only engaged during the fight sub-phase; given this line of reasoning that means that if you charge me and stay in B2B with my unit, my unit can shoot you in my turn despite being in combat with you. Tell me, are you ok with that? Because there are no two ways about it; either you are not locked except during the fight sub-phase in which case my unit in combat can shoot still despite this, or you are locked once in B2B in which case you cannot overwatch once in B2B. Seems kind of obvious which is right.

No one is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. They are saying you do not get locked until the stay of the very next fight sub-phase.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
To the people that are saying that you are only engaged during the fight sub-phase; given this line of reasoning that means that if you charge me and stay in B2B with my unit, my unit can shoot you in my turn despite being in combat with you. Tell me, are you ok with that? Because there are no two ways about it; either you are not locked except during the fight sub-phase in which case my unit in combat can shoot still despite this, or you are locked once in B2B in which case you cannot overwatch once in B2B. Seems kind of obvious which is right.

How so, you are locked if you have one model in base contact with an enemy you are locked.

So either you can not complete your charge move or they are not locked until the fight subphase where the rules appear.

Furthermore, if you are locked as soon as a model is in base contact, please give a page that gives specific permission for a model to make a move other than pile in (the only type of movement allowed when locked).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.