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Skaven-slaves in groups of 20 models with slings.

So i have to wonder how well these do. I'm actually interested in running them. It might sound odd but i plan to use them to protect my warp lightning cannons from stuff that normally kills such things (usually stuff like harpies, warhounds, etc.). The point of this is that most units that kill war machines are small, have few wounds, are on the outskirts of armies so will probably panic fast, have little armor and may be skirmishers. That said i don't want too many points facing them. Skaven-slaves with slings helps in multiple ways. For one i can shoot into the slaves, i can keep the slaves on low ground so the WLC shoots above them and when they panic they don't panic anything else. Anyway each of these units is a 50 pts drop and i plan to take 2 units in armies of about 1500 pts or more but if it allows me to focus my attention on other things with magic and etc. then i'm happy. Also small units of flyers need to be taken care of cheaply enough and normal slave units can't do it easily as they maneuvre around most of my units when i try to kill them. So yeah it should theoretically be decent vs small units of terradons and such. We'll see how it goes. I've heard some decent things from sandant and i myself have thought about it. I'm actually beginning to think there's not too many wrong ways to take slaves if you use them the right way tactically but i suppose that goes for quite a few units.

Poisoned wind globadiers in 5 model units with champions wielding death globes.

According to the army book you can take globadiers in units of 5-15. I can take a champion in each unit, all units can fire into any combat that anybody is in and the death globe wounds everything it touches on a 4+ with no armor saves allowed. Not sure if this is extremely likely to hit but it could be good taking 3 or more units of these globadier death globe units with lots of slaves or clanrats. You bog down the enemy and then just chuck lots of nasty firepower on them. To be fair it's still small blast and it is one use but one good shot on a unit of warriors, elves, dwarfs, etc. and it'll be worth it in my book. Probably not terribly fantastic as there's probably a 2/3 of a chance of scatter and you still need to get really close to use them being a stone thrower shot. Not the best but throwing into any unit that's in combat with another is awesome and the fact it always wounds on a 4+ regardless of toughness. Somebody could go flesh to stone and make a unit toughness 7 or 8 and these globes would still kill as many guys. Really the sweet part is mostly in killing heavily armored and tough infantry. It still probably would suck in the end though. It's just far too random, one use and short ranged. Still would like to try it though.

I would also like some input on stuff like ratling guns, doom flayers (just an idea to make them good in the game) and just anything in general.

--------------------------

I will think up other tactics later and feedback would be appreciated. I would also like others to throw out some skaven tactics themselves and i'll try to give my feedback for them as i hope the rest of you will too.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Skaven-slaves in groups of 20 models with slings.

Well, on their own they'll just vanish like a snowball in hell. On the other hand, so does almost all chaff, and seeing that they're a) core, b) don't cause panic in important stuff and c) cost as much as a Great Eagle per drop, you could get a lot of mileage out of them in some sort of checkerboard tarpit formation. For what you have in mind, they're probably okay.

Quick guide to Skaven Tactics:

Drop units of 100 Skaven slaves, throw some HPA and WLC around.

Done.

Globadiers:

You start with 10 man causing 10 wounds.

You loose half trying to hit. 5

You loose half trying to wound. 3

You loose half which hit your own units instead. 2 (Either because you have chaff to distract, or because you got charged before getting in range.)

Even assuming a slightly above average roll, 2 Wounds with no armor save, for a price of 100 points, with a high chance that they get done in by shooting or magic, and a chance good chance to wound themselves.

Not that great IMO.

I don't think you wound your own guys half the time when you throw them, do you? Isn't that only in CC?

It's very very easy to get out of charge arcs with skirmishers, and killing 1 Knight should be more than enough if you charge them in the flank. Or shoot and kill 2/5, with 1-2 more through stand and shoot; WM hunting Knight units are rarely bigger than 5.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Quick jaded cynical guy's WAAC guide

Corrected that for you.

Globadiers main purpose is to take out heavy cav.
A unit of Chaos knights for example is going butcher any skaven unit in runs into.
Killing 1 or 2 of your 40 clan rats is no trouble and worth the risk
Possibly killing 1 or 2 knights per turn is worth the odds.
Every life of the skaven is cheap and you expect all of them to die.

20 Skavenslaves with slings versus 5 Harpies: 5+ to Hit base, -1 for long range, -1 for Skirmishers, -1 for Multiple Shots. Need 6's, then 5+. Assuming you're 10 wide, that's 40 shots, 2.2 hits, and 1.1 wounds. Not enough to cause Panic, and they still charge your Cannon.
That said, the unit is cheap, durable, and very versatile. I've used them before to oddly great effect.

Globadiers are a tricky issue. They're a specialist group (hence, Special unit), like Gutter Runners. Spamming them won't really do you a lot of good, because they have a fairly narrow range of targets. I'd take a unit of 5, with a Bombadier with the Death Globe, and that's it. If they can close with a high T or armour target, great. If not, it was 80pts. No big deal.
Two cool things about Globadiers, though: (1) they pose a serious threat to monsters for their points, and (2) they wear heavy armour, can shoot for their supporting attacks, and are Skirmishers, which means their Steadfast in a forest. Still trying to make that work, though.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Spam Slaves to win

I know you're right but squeeeeeeeee!

Corrected that for you.

A tango takes two.

Seriously, though, tieing up with Slaves then shooting with your stuff always is the more effective tactic. Skaven aren't hard to play, they're just expensive.

I'm a big fan of trying new things. With so many options in the skaven army there are plenty of effective builds.
The doomflayer is quite helpful against non elite units. It can actually turn a clanrat tar pit into a winning unit,I have had some great success with them. Plus they are a bit more predictable than other weapons teams.

@Sigvatr: Assuming your shooting actually does something. Warp Lightning Cannons and Weapon Teams are the most unreliable war machines in the game.
Not that it's not a good strategy, of course. But people know how to beat it.
And since that is the #1 most commonly seen strategy, that's the one people know how to beat the most.

@DrunkPhilisoph: actually, it goes like this: 10 Globadiers shoot, 5 hit the enemy, 1.7 hit themselves. 2.5 wound the enemy, .6 wound themselves.
Now, a net gain of 1.9 wounds for 100pts might not seem great, because it's not. But it's not bad either. That's 2.5 wounds to any target, regardless of Toughness or armour. And, of course, they don't have to be in CC to do it. Even better, though, is that they can deal out those wounds into any CC. Except, you know, that half of them hit your guys.

@Peasant: You...you've had luck with Doomflayers?!? A T3 W1 CC model with a 3+ save for 55pts, and you've had "great success"? I'm going to assume those successes all involved enemies with I4 and less. If not, tell me more!

Actually the weapons team has initiative 3 so doom flayers strike at initiative 3. Course nobody uses them or expects them to hit combat so there ya go. Also i would never use doom flayers except to flank the enemy or possibly against skirmishers though they have to attach themselves to clanrats or stormvermin so you would at least need them somewhere. I have 3 now surprisingly but i'd never use them except in a super friendly game.

@warpsolution- yep, believe it or not.
Most success against undeaed.
Decent agaist empire.
some success againt Chaos warriors and Daemons.
The thing about it is application. Proper usage makes them useful. You don't charge them into elite units and never on their own.
They are maneuverable and they are support. If you can get a flank you do even better. You get the plus 2 for flank and charge.
Your unit is typically tar pitted in so the flank is relatively easy .
Typically only 3 attacks against the doomflayer. And if you hit them near the front ranks it can be as few as 2 or 1 depending on how they choose to allocate. It's quite a boon when your tarpit actually breaks a unit rather than just holding them and waiting for the super heavy hitters to show up.
Admittedly many people, especially on the internet ,play tournaments so, like all skaven teams, the randomness is undesirable. But getting 6, 8, or 10 attacks works wonders against most core troops, and the -2 save goes a long way. Edit...and I forgot the d3 impact hits.
3+ armour save is almost unheard of for the skaven.
I 'm sure you didn't need me to rewrite the rules for you
I like them.
Most units in the game have uses, they just require proper application. The tournament lists only want to stack the numbers in the simplest most direct way. For obvious reasons.
I understand that in tournaments when you fight different opponents with no changes to your list you can run into trouble.
Try some games where you set limits that force yourself out of the tournament box. Use the units in game, more than once, that you would never consider, not just running the #'s and the odds and you may find some surprises.
You could become an even better general as well.

Interesting.

I plan on taking ratlings guns with the small parent clanrat units near my warp lightning cannons instead of the slaves with slings now. I figure ratling guns may do more damage as they don't stack on as many negative modifiers and the range is a bit nice.

@flamingkillamajig: Indeed. Ratling Guns are the way to go against small units and Skirmishers.

@Peasant: Yeah, I know they can be good. But anything can be good, if you roll good enough. And I think "the thing" about every unit in Warhammer is application. But the strengths of a unit of, say, 18 Nurgle Warriors with halberds, or 40 Savage Big 'Uns, are a lot easier to apply than those of the Doomflayer.

I assume that, when you send in the 'flayer, it's into a flank, and into the flank of an enemy with either low I, not-high S, or few A.
You say there are "typically only 3 attacks...or as few as 2 or 1, depending on how they choose to allocate".

So...(1) this is a unit that's only 3 deep, but it's not elite infantry? How many times do we see that? And (2) I don't know who in their right mind would choose to swing at Clanrats when they could be swinging at a model with the same T and W, but costs a dozen times more.

And a 3+ save may be "unheard of" for the Skaven, but that doesn't make it good. Not on a model as fragile as the Doomflayer.

Don't get me wrong; I admire your persistence. But I am still not convinced the Doomflayer is even remotely good. Against Dwarfs, Bretonnia, maybe some Beastmen or Empire, I could see it working pretty well. But I'd rather put literally anything else in the book in an All-Comers list.

If you really want to get a good look at if a unit is decent or not, you need to play it in multiple games, in multiple lists, against multiple opponents, against multiple armies.

My problem with the doom flayer as i think i've stated before is that usually whatever has lower initiative than it does usually has toughness 4 and whatever is toughness 3 is usually high in initiative or has good shooting. This is the case for pretty much everything.

The few armies a doom flayer can do well against probably would fall to pieces to the other weapons teams as easily and it'd take so much maneuvring to get everything right.

I could possibly see the doom flayer being useful vs small units of melee skirmishers and some other small units that don't move too quickly but it's still tricky because it only has initiative 3 and that's not very good esp. for skaven and esp. considering it's glass cannon nature at melee range. Perhaps if i fled my 20 model slave units and then charged doom flayers in i could get impact hits plus more but it's still not that great considering the initiative of this thing. In the end i'd still probably get infinitely more done with warpfire throwers.

So yeah i'd probably consider taking doom flayers for experimenting with noobs and fighting in super friendly non-competitive games but i still lean towards not taking them for now till i can play enough that it doesn't matter.

Warpsolution wrote:
@flamingkillamajig: Indeed. Ratling Guns are the way to go against small units and Skirmishers.

@Peasant: Yeah, I know they can be good. But anything can be good, if you roll good enough. And I think "the thing" about every unit in Warhammer is application. But the strengths of a unit of, say, 18 Nurgle Warriors with halberds, or 40 Savage Big 'Uns, are a lot easier to apply than those of the Doomflayer.

I assume that, when you send in the 'flayer, it's into a flank, and into the flank of an enemy with either low I, not-high S, or few A.
You say there are "typically only 3 attacks...or as few as 2 or 1, depending on how they choose to allocate".

So...(1) this is a unit that's only 3 deep, but it's not elite infantry? How many times do we see that? And (2) I don't know who in their right mind would choose to swing at Clanrats when they could be swinging at a model with the same T and W, but costs a dozen times more.

And a 3+ save may be "unheard of" for the Skaven, but that doesn't make it good. Not on a model as fragile as the Doomflayer.

Don't get me wrong; I admire your persistence. But I am still not convinced the Doomflayer is even remotely good. Against Dwarfs, Bretonnia, maybe some Beastmen or Empire, I could see it working pretty well. But I'd rather put literally anything else in the book in an All-Comers list.

If you really want to get a good look at if a unit is decent or not, you need to play it in multiple games, in multiple lists, against multiple opponents, against multiple armies.

Yes it can be good like anything else.
I understand that many people want the big win button and we can say that a unit is terrible against another because that's how the game plays. And we can always find a unit to counter another.
It's funny that so many use chaos warriors as the basis of ranking. They are core but the way the army is built they are elite. Heck, empire captains are warriors with 3 wounds, so comparing with warriors as a basis isn't the best way to determine usefulness. You should compare against the averages. Unless of course all you play against is chaos warriors...
If you hit a flank only the outer column of models can attack. You have a 25mm base so the most models that can strike back is 3. Most core have 1 attack. If you are at the front the opponent must decide to allocate to the large unit or doomflayer. Most core are s4 at best which still gives a 4+ save. Even many elite are s4.
Keep the doomflayer within 3" and you keep the leadership of its parent and a 4+ ward Til you get where you're going
I'm not arguing that you can't cause mass destruction with a warp fire thrower.
You listed 4 armies it could do well against..add all the elves, for 7 armies. the same still applies..elves will strike first, 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1 wound 3+ save..already given d3 impact at -2 and then if its still alive 2-10 attacks. They have their uses.
I have played it in multiple games, multiple times, against empire, undead, daemons and warriors of chaos. It has served me well. just as well as anything else.
Sometimes it dies. But sometimes my warp fire throwers blow up. It's the way of the skaven.
How many times do people use a unit, it dies horribly so they say it sucks and never use it again?
I like the doomflayer...I like rat ogres too.

@warpsolution: Actually i think it might be preferable to just take more slaves with slings now that i think about it. I mean a total of 2 slave units with nothing but slings at the foot of one Warp Lightning Cannon that won't force it to flee, won't misfire and won't need a parent unit sounds better. I mean for a 20 model clanrat unit and a ratling gun i could easily do more damage with 2 slave units with slings doing the same thing. Course i'll need a crap ton of slaves with slings and it will raise a few eyebrows seeing me putting them to use.

I'm also thinking of finally running the screaming bell. Sure cracks call is nice when you roll it but this is provided your opponent allows it off and even still against some armies like dark elves it doesn't do anything. Course if i run a screaming bell i'd want some heavy hitters like censer bearers, stormvermin or rat ogres. The harder a small unit can hit the better.

@flamingkillamajig: oh, yeah! If you're not already taking the Clanrats, then I'd go with the Slaves for sure. At the very least, a unit of 20 can reform really wide, forcing their chaff to charge them before the Cannon.

@Peasant: I'm not looking for a "win" button. I'm looking for a unit that can do something against a wide variety of units.

And I'm not saying Warriors are the basis for anything; I'm saying that they're easier to use than other units, because they're awesome. I'm saying that some units, like Chaos Warriors, are point-and-click, while others, like most of the Skaven units, rely on each other. I believe I made that quite clear in my last post.

The Doomflayer does terribly against Elves. Those armies are loaded with high S, A, and/or I models.
This Weapon Team has to avoid a lot of targets. No White Lions or Swordmasters. No Sea Guard or Archers. Looks like it's basically just Spearmen, then. And so on. It does pretty well against common troops, I'll admit. But the other Weapon Teams can threaten a much more diverse selection of targets, all while avoiding close combat.

I'm not saying that Skryre's other devices are more reliable; just that they're more versatile and durable.

I'm not saying "dude, this one time, I ran three Doomflayers, and I rolled Misfires with all of them and they exploded. I hate them, they suck, etc". What I am saying is: it's a 55pt model. With T3. And it needs to get into close combat.
Your argument seems to be "well, if you charge into the flank of the one or two units your opponent brings that it can take on, it works great", and that just doesn't cut it with me.

Though for the record, I am a fan of Rat Ogres, too. Strike-teams of 2 with a pack master has served me very well in the past.

Warpsolution wrote:
@flamingkillamajig: oh, yeah! If you're not already taking the Clanrats, then I'd go with the Slaves for sure. At the very least, a unit of 20 can reform really wide, forcing their chaff to charge them before the Cannon.

@Peasant: I'm not looking for a "win" button. I'm looking for a unit that can do something against a wide variety of units.

And I'm not saying Warriors are the basis for anything; I'm saying that they're easier to use than other units, because they're awesome. I'm saying that some units, like Chaos Warriors, are point-and-click, while others, like most of the Skaven units, rely on each other. I believe I made that quite clear in my last post.

The Doomflayer does terribly against Elves. Those armies are loaded with high S, A, and/or I models.
This Weapon Team has to avoid a lot of targets. No White Lions or Swordmasters. No Sea Guard or Archers. Looks like it's basically just Spearmen, then. And so on. It does pretty well against common troops, I'll admit. But the other Weapon Teams can threaten a much more diverse selection of targets, all while avoiding close combat.

I'm not saying that Skryre's other devices are more reliable; just that they're more versatile and durable.

I'm not saying "dude, this one time, I ran three Doomflayers, and I rolled Misfires with all of them and they exploded. I hate them, they suck, etc". What I am saying is: it's a 55pt model. With T3. And it needs to get into close combat.
Your argument seems to be "well, if you charge into the flank of the one or two units your opponent brings that it can take on, it works great", and that just doesn't cut it with me.

Though for the record, I am a fan of Rat Ogres, too. Strike-teams of 2 with a pack master has served me very well in the past.

My apologies if the last post came across offensive, it was not my intent.
When people play a lot of tournaments they tend to run the numbers and use the models that come out best so they never see other models in action. They are right in what they use because the units are successful but my point is that the other units are good they just need more work to use. Which is exactly what you don't want in a tournament. I get it.

I agree about warriors and skaven. I must not have been clear on my side. I read a lot of forums where people say a unit sucks because it can't take on warriors. Or a unit sucks cuz warriors do this better and that's just poor thinking in my opinion. It's like saying your car Honda isn't as fast as a Ferrari .

I agree with what other weapons teams can do. But because of that they become a high priority target
I don't agree durability
The argument about charging the flank on units it can hurt is entirely valid. That's what we attempt to do with every unit we use in every army. Apply them where they will do best.
Do you charge your unit of gutter runners into a 40 man block of sword masters?..probably not
And that is my point with tournament players they want/need units that will give them the best return overall which causes other good units to be benched.
55poitns gives you a single model with a 4+ ward and a decent save that has potential for good assists. Plus it's small size lets it squeeze in to combat where other units and models can't.

It's all good.
I agree with the idea that every unit has its uses and its potential. But since it applies to everything, it's an idea that doesn't actually convey much.
Some units need back-up to win. That's cool. But, because they're harder/more situational to use, those two units working together should perform better than two units that can work independently. Doomflayers can be decent in the right environment. But the effort they require and the window in which they can be applied is small compared to the results it produces.

- I get what you're saying about Chaos Warriors. I had assumed that your comment was in response to mine. Mostly because that's how conversations work.
The real issue is: can a unit or two perform as well as their point's worth of Warriors? And the answer is usually: yes.

- the argument "because Unit A isn't as good as Unit B, Unit A will get targeted less" is a logical fallacy. Because, even if Unit B doesn't see combat, and Unit A does, Unit A is still a worse unit. So, if your opponent only had the resources/opportunities to take out one of these two targets, you'd have been best served by taking two Unit B's.

- On durability, allow me to explain: a Ratling Gun works in the shooting phase. Since it can remain useful outside the Close Combat phase, it has a longer lifespan. That's all I'm saying.

- As for flanks/target selection, you're missing the point. The Doomflayer needs to hit a flank (because, if it didn't, who in the right mind wouldn't allocate as many attacks to it as they could? Easy points), but it also needs to hit the right unit.
Yes, of course we try to match up our units against the enemies we think they're best against. But my point is, the Doomflayer has an extremely short list of targets.
There are plenty of lists where there's just no viable targets for it at all.

All I'd want from my Doomflayer is to be less hit-or-miss. It either charges in, kills a bunch of guys, and rocks, or it charges in and gets killed. A little middle-ground would be nice.

Warpsolution wrote:
It's all good.
I agree with the idea that every unit has its uses and its potential. But since it applies to everything, it's an idea that doesn't actually convey much.
Some units need back-up to win. That's cool. But, because they're harder/more situational to use, those two units working together should perform better than two units that can work independently. Doomflayers can be decent in the right environment. But the effort they require and the window in which they can be applied is small compared to the results it produces.

- I get what you're saying about Chaos Warriors. I had assumed that your comment was in response to mine. Mostly because that's how conversations work.
The real issue is: can a unit or two perform as well as their point's worth of Warriors? And the answer is usually: yes.

- the argument "because Unit A isn't as good as Unit B, Unit A will get targeted less" is a logical fallacy. Because, even if Unit B doesn't see combat, and Unit A does, Unit A is still a worse unit. So, if your opponent only had the resources/opportunities to take out one of these two targets, you'd have been best served by taking two Unit B's.

- On durability, allow me to explain: a Ratling Gun works in the shooting phase. Since it can remain useful outside the Close Combat phase, it has a longer lifespan. That's all I'm saying.

- As for flanks/target selection, you're missing the point. The Doomflayer needs to hit a flank (because, if it didn't, who in the right mind wouldn't allocate as many attacks to it as they could? Easy points), but it also needs to hit the right unit.
Yes, of course we try to match up our units against the enemies we think they're best against. But my point is, the Doomflayer has an extremely short list of targets.
There are plenty of lists where there's just no viable targets for it at all.

All I'd want from my Doomflayer is to be less hit-or-miss. It either charges in, kills a bunch of guys, and rocks, or it charges in and gets killed. A little middle-ground would be nice.

The comment about warriors was toward you but with no disrespect. Many players, I don't know if you are one, and most tournament players, want/need the direct approach. Units that are direct. Pushing the models across the board to kill as much as quickly as possible. The big obviously killy units are the easiest to use and you said.."But the effort they require and the window in which they can be applied is small compared to the results it produces" But I believe the statement should be this way...They require some effort to use because they have a smaller window but they can produce good results.
Can a 55 point doomwheel hold it's own against 55 points of chaos warriors? Yes it can.
It's really just a different view on tactics.
It's not a logical fallacy. It's tactical threat assessment. Especially against skaven. Typically as a skaven player you have more units on the board, all things being equal you would attempt to destroy a warpfire thrower before a doomflayer. If you use both and your warpfire thrower gets targeted more frequently and gets killed before it does anything in the majority of games and your doomflayer sees combat and breaks one unit a game before it dies the doomflayer becomes more valuable if it dies doing nothing it was still more valuable because it cost you less to lose. 2 doomflayers cost less than 2 warpfire throwers.
We use screening units, weapons teams can be the same. If you have 2 warpfire throwers the opponent will attempt to kill the one that it sees to be the most threat.
Just like chess, sometime you throw a threat that the opponent almost must take on when you know the other piece/unit is part of your real objective. A doomflayer can also be used as a charge redirector as well.

Durability..a ratling gun can only shoot what it sees and once combats start its usefulness dwindles even more. If it just stands there it was useless no matter the lifespan.

If there are rats in combat the doomflayer has a viable target, it's odds just change a bit.
I don't believe that doomflayers list is that small. Not with skaven. I expect my rats to die doing a job. The random nature feeds itself.
I typically run all my rats in busses and I can usually get a flayer in by second round of combat. So provided it survives, which it often survives 1 round, I get 3 for my ranks, 1 for banner, 1 for charge and 1 for flank...+6 not counting any luck for impact or wounds caused by rats. Even then the impact will often give me the +1 that I got for the charge even if the flayer dies which still only gives them 1 wound for combat res. Decent numbers against many units.
Most skaven units are pretty hit or miss. Warpfire throwers, for me, either absolutely toast units or blow up first shot of the game. I get no middle ground with my luck with them. It never stops me from taking them.
Its just a preferences for myself.
But I don't do tournaments so I don't have the same necessity for unit choices.
As for rat ogres a death block of 9 with skweel is quite fun though costly. But it has wrecked serious havoc on many a unit.

 Peasant wrote:
They require some effort to use because they have a smaller window but they can produce good results.

The question, then, is whether or not the results are good enough to justify the effort. To which I firmly believe the answer is "no", because the number of situations the Doomflayer can reliably function in is small.

 Peasant wrote:
Can a 55 point doomwheel hold it's own against 55 points of chaos warriors? Yes it can.

55pts worth of Chaos Warriors is not, to my knowledge a legal unit. Now, if you wanted to compare a standard block of Warriors to a standard block of Clanrats + a Doomflayer of about equal points, you're looking at much more reasonable comparison.

 Peasant wrote:
It's not a logical fallacy. It's tactical threat assessment. Especially against skaven. Typically as a skaven player you have more units on the board, all things being equal you would attempt to destroy a warpfire thrower before a doomflayer. If you use both and your warpfire thrower gets targeted more frequently and gets killed before it does anything in the majority of games and your doomflayer sees combat and breaks one unit a game before it dies the doomflayer becomes more valuable if it dies doing nothing it was still more valuable because it cost you less to lose. 2 doomflayers cost less than 2 warpfire throwers.
We use screening units, weapons teams can be the same. If you have 2 warpfire throwers the opponent will attempt to kill the one that it sees to be the most threat.

Your opponent would attempt to destroy a Warpfire Thrower before a Doomflayer. Correct. Because the prior is better than the latter. If your Doomflayer survived to see use, then we can assume a different Weapon Team would have survived. "this unit is better because it's not as good, and thus doesn't get killed right away" doesn't hold water. Instead of offering some poor targets and some good ones, you're better off offering as many good targets. That way, no matter what your opponent destroys, what your left with is good.
Also, "a cheap destroyed unit is better than an expensive destroyed unit" makes zero sense. They both do nothing for you; it's a total loss of efficiency, regardless of points. If it helps, compare the Ratling Gun and the 'Flayer instead.

 Peasant wrote:
Durability..a ratling gun can only shoot what it sees and once combats start its usefulness dwindles even more. If it just stands there it was useless no matter the lifespan.

Not relevant. I'm not talking about effectiveness here. I'm talking about durability.

 Peasant wrote:
If there are rats in combat the doomflayer has a viable target, it's odds just change a bit.
I don't believe that doomflayers list is that small. Not with skaven. I expect my rats to die doing a job. The random nature feeds itself.

Not what I mean. By "list", I was referring to the the list of enemy units a Doomflayer can safely charge. S4-5, A2+, and/or I4+ are all danger zones.

 Peasant wrote:
Most skaven units are pretty hit or miss. Warpfire throwers, for me, either absolutely toast units or blow up first shot of the game. I get no middle ground with my luck with them. It never stops me from taking them.

Warpfire Throwers have a 1:6 chance of Misfire, just like Doomflayers. From there, the 'Thrower has a 5:6 chance of exploding, where the 'Flayer only has a 2:5 of auto-exploding, and it's more likely to hurt the enemy if it does. Then again, rolling a 6 on the 'Flayer is much worse than rolling a 6 on the 'Thrower.
I've had some pretty weird luck with the Skaven; my Doomwheel exploded on the first turn 3 out of 3 games in a tournament. Which is astronomically unlikely; Doomwheels are pretty reliable, even by non-Skaven standards.
But I don't let that sort of thing stop me, because the numbers tell me that, in general, that shouldn't happen.

Warpsolution wrote:
I've had some pretty weird luck with the Skaven; my Doomwheel exploded on the first turn 3 out of 3 games in a tournament. Which is astronomically unlikely; Doomwheels are pretty reliable, even by non-Skaven standards.
But I don't let that sort of thing stop me, because the numbers tell me that, in general, that shouldn't happen.

Wait wait wait... you mean skaven stuff shouldn't explode the first time it fires, game after game? I've been playing it wrong this whole time!

At least you get the impact hits before it explodes...
The real problem is, you need lots of them to make them work. At that point, you'll see better effect with spamming ratling guns then spamming doom flayers.

Try taking Queek + banner of discipline. It gives you an unheard of base Ld9. You can then load up on units of 10 storm vermin and not have LD issues.
This lets you get a LOT of weapon teams.

8 teams + slaves roadblocks, and max warmachines.

@HawaiiMatt: Yeah, I've considered that. Too bad the only reason I'd run Queek is for his Ld.
I was considering a similar list with the Folding Fortress/Jezzail Deathstar.

@steamdragon: Heh. That's exactly what my opponents said. Until I broke it down:

- first, you need to fail the Ld test. Odds- 1:2
- then, you roll a Misfire!. 1:6
- next, a result of 1-2 on the chart. 1:3
- and then you need to roll enough hits to potentially kill the 'Wheel in one go. 1:3
- and finally, you need to wound with 5 out of those 5 or 6 hits. 1:32

1:3456?

So...yeah. I'm cool with losing my Weapon Teams and Cannons on the first turn I try to use them. But less so my Doomwheel.

As for the Doomflayer, I will say this: racking up a handful of kills in combat is way better than doing so at a range. The best luck I've ever had with them is sending one into the flank, while I moved to Horde formation to the front. 30 Stormvermin and a Doomflayer can take out a block of 30 Dwarf Warriors with great weapons. Which is a 35pt gain, I guess.
But on average, the thing is cranking out 8 S4 AP hits, which amounts to 4 or 5 wounds. Not enough to turn the tide of battle in most match-ups.

Warpsolution wrote:

As for the Doomflayer, I will say this: racking up a handful of kills in combat is way better than doing so at a range. The best luck I've ever had with them is sending one into the flank, while I moved to Horde formation to the front. 30 Stormvermin and a Doomflayer can take out a block of 30 Dwarf Warriors with great weapons. Which is a 35pt gain, I guess.
But on average, the thing is cranking out 8 S4 AP hits, which amounts to 4 or 5 wounds. Not enough to turn the tide of battle in most match-ups.

What if you used a couple doom flayers on the flank of a battle with stormvermin at the front or something? I personally don't think i'd ever run less than 2 doom flayers into a combat with say stormvermin. Dunno if i'd even try to throw them in a battle with clanrats (they'd probably just run away after combat resolution in many cases).

Eh, more is always better. But I always assume that the difficulty of adding multiple units to a combat rises exponentially; my opponent is, more than likely, a savvy general.

That, and I don't like taking too many duplicates. The Skaven have this awesome, eclectic steampunk mishmash of units. It just looks cooler and is more fun for me to have a little of everything, usually.

Ok so my opinion on slaves with slings is that they are horrible. They don't even really do the job of killing chaff too well. You can sometimes panic chaff with them by killing one or two but the problem is their leadership means they often pass the test and charge your cannons anyway. This is not ideal. In fact it kind of makes slaves with slings worthless.

I am thinking of running slaves in units of 20 with 10 models wide and 2 deep. The reason for this is it can prevent skirmishers from moving around your units. I pretty much was able to cover a large portion of the battlefield and still get my general's leadership on the slaves and prevent skink skirmishers from doing much damage because they couldn't get around me too easily. Also an enemy can't easily re-direct its charge into other units when you plop a unit 10 models wide in front of it and dare it to charge the slaves. Usually I use the slaves to re-direct the enemy or to slow them down or get them into warpfire thrower range.

I am thinking of possibly taking a small clanrat unit with a ratling gun and having the gun march over to my warp lightning cannons and shoot chaff down. Weapons teams don't cause panic in other units so it could be good. Then again any shots into it will pretty much guarantee it dies unless I can get something to obscure it for a while like the previously mentioned clanrat unit.

Ratling guns are ok not great. You're usually better off using gutter runners with slings for most of what ratling guns can do and archers still outrange ratling guns so they can pick them or other units off while remaining out of range. Ratling guns also misfire a ton even when you only roll 2 dice or maybe my luck was just terrible that game. They are decent versus chaff, elites and other small units and that is awesome but usually I prefer warpfire throwers even if it forces me to have crappy range. Sure warpfire throwers have insanely unforgiving misfire results but the effectiveness when they work is usually enough to waive such problems.

I'm actually thinking about using rat swarms as chaff. You see there is no rule against swarms being super limited versus war machines so I think 6 bases can even be in a combat with them. Course I plan on taking two per unit and no more than 3 per unit if 2 doesn't work out. I plan on only using 2 units of 2 and we'll see how it goes. The awesome thing about rat swarms is they are unbreakable, skirmishers and leadership 10. This means you can usually march move and angle them around the enemy's units without worrying most if not all of the time. Skirmishers also means that it is an additional -1 to hit for BS shooting. The other good thing is they are unbreakable so the enemy has to shoot them till they're all dead and even though unstable you can lose combat and still tie up chaff and war machines with them. Like I just said it's chaff to hold up other chaff and it can possibly take down a war machine. In a test game it already killed a war machine for me so that's a step in the right direction. Considering the quick movement and flexibility of such it's pretty good. I'll have to play test it more but i'm enjoying it.

Gutter runners with poisoned attacks seem really good. I'm running them in units of 10 for some reason because i'm crazy. For now i'm doing two units and between them and the warp lightning cannons no monsters seem to be getting through. I'm also thinking of using my plague magic grey seer to skitterleap into them and give them bless with filth (poisoned attacks in melee). If they are in cover this would prevent enemies from wanting to engage in melee with them. This then forces them to shoot into a unit which is in cover and skirmishers so at least a -2 to BS shooting at the very least. I figure skitterleaping the grey seer into their unit might be good if he has plague magic since they could help the seer survive a bit and the seer could wither, bless with filth and do other nastiness to help the gutter runners or at least use them as fodder to stay alive. Also i'm unsure but I think if the grey seer miscasts units in base-to-base contact with him don't exist in skirmisher units. This is all taking into account that grey seers can skitterleap into gutter runners and things haven't been FAQ'd into submission like how only plague monk characters can be with a plague monk unit pushing a furnace.

- Slaves with slings are not great. Just keep in mind; you're paying 10pts for those slings, so it's not a very big investment.
Try combining both your slave-tactics; run them 10X2 with slings. Put them right in front of the war machine. It can work pretty well. Just keep in mind that you're only getting what you pay for.

- Ratling Guns do more damage than their point's worth of Gutter Runners, easy. 2-4 wounds for 55pts, versus ~3 wounds for 90pts, assuming the 'Runners didn't move and are at close range.

- Rat Swarms rock in an odd sort of way. A unit of 3 can absorb so much missile fire for their points no one will bother shooting them, and they can pose a viable threat to war machine crews and other chaff (especially those small units, like war hounds, marauder horsemen, and eagles).

- Gutter Runners are one of the things that every 'Net List has, and usuauly in great numbers. Though I honestly don't see why. I'd much rather have a unit of 5 or 6; small enough to fit between other units, with enough tricks to cause some serious mayhem anyway. The things they excel at are generally pretty rare on the field, so I don't need a ton of them.
Also, to point out: even with 5+ Poison, most decent combat units are going to kill Gutter Runners, forest or no (10 Gutter Runners = 30 regular Orcs with shields).
It's a cool idea, but it wouldn't be my go-to.

Here's another consideration for the doom flayer.
If you're going to run the storm banner and go without shooty skaven (yeah, it's totally possible to run non-shooty skaven) than Doom Flayers are the only team not affected by the storm.

5 or 6 flayers, with 3+ armor, 4+ look at and -2 to be shot suddenly become extremely durable.

Want to really turn heads? Run skaven without a shooting phase.

-Matt