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Hey guys,

Is it just me or are the basic troop choices getting special rules in 6th more and more?

Eldar guardians have their catapults that are near enough rending.
Tau Firewarriors have better overwatch
Codex Marines to get either re-roll misses or other perks.

Did DA and Chaos get anything?

What do you think the rest will get?

Orks to half overwatch shots when charging? Or reroll charge distance?
IG to double overwatch shots or can fall back as a charge reaction (like WHFB)

Daston wrote:
Hey guys,

Is it just me or are the basic troop choices getting special rules in 6th more and more?

Eldar guardians have their catapults that are near enough rending.
Tau Firewarriors have better overwatch
Codex Marines to get either re-roll misses or other perks.

Did DA and Chaos get anything?

What do you think the rest will get?

Orks to half overwatch shots when charging? Or reroll charge distance?
IG to double overwatch shots or can fall back as a charge reaction (like WHFB)

Chaos got nothing, same with DA.

Its not so much troops getting special rules but rather fluffy army wide rules to that further differentiate the armies are really good for the troops.

Tau got better overwatch to fit their combinded armys play. Thats not just troops.
Eldar got bladestorm but I would say Battle focus is the more important and impactual rule that supports their higher mobility

Pre 6th codexes
Codex Marines have ATSKNF making them basicly immune to all negitive effects of moral.
Orks have Mob rule
Nids have synapse.

It not so much that the troops are getting more special rules. Its that the 6th edition codexes army wide rules from the last 2 codexs are especially good for the troops as well as the rest of the army.

Dark Angels got dirt cheap models that can get an army going quickly as well as the first (or second?) 6th ed codex. I got my first thousand points or so for around the price of a Battleforce and a unit or two extra (including the price hike on the codex).

Chaos...Chaos got the 'drake.

Infantry options for both would have been classy, but I've always had an affinity for the Angels and would have picked them up regardless. Loving the models in Dark Vengeance is the icing on the cake.

Its not so much troops getting special rules but rather fluffy army wide rules to that further differentiate the armies are really good for the troops.

I agree that they are more army wide rules, but the 6th ed versions do seem to really favor the Troops slot of the force org chart IMO. They are admittedly similar to the examples you posted, but I feel like they have that much more of an effect on the basic troops selections.

As Zebio mentioned, Chaos and the DA kind of got shafted in that dept. People will say (and someone in this thread already has said) "but they got cheap troops". However, when you look at the cost of the troops choices in the other books, I'm not so sure they are that "cheap" anymore. Plus, I'm willing to bet C:SM gets troops on par with the cost of DA and CSM, but are MUCH MUCH better than both. The thing is though, barring a few exceptions, Chaos and DA tend NOT to get the special stuff the other books get. So with all that being said, yes, I think the trend of these special rules probably will continue.

I can also see it becoming a bigger focus of the supplement books. It would allow GW to not have to come up with too many more "new" units and just allow them to create a few special rules to make the existing slots function ever so slightly differently.

Let's not forget that Dark Angels recieved Grim Resolve and Chaos can buy Veterans of the Long War.

Let's not forget that Dark Angels recieved Grim Resolve and Chaos can buy Veterans of the Long War.

Chaos had it's LD score artificially dropped so that Kelly could shoe horn that rule into their entry and give people a reason to take it. It is hardly the same thing as the Tau getting the Overlapping Overwatch rule (sorry, can't remember what it's called). Don't get me wrong, I'm actually fine with the rules the armies are getting so I'm not complaining that army x got this and army y didn't. I was just pointing out that it's not unusual for CSM and DA to kind of get passed over for these. As far as DA go, and it's been years since I opened up my previous DA book so I could be wrong here, but isn't GR a slightly different version of what they already had? Either way, it's certainly no Battle Focus. Having it is actually often worse than not having it so like I said about CSM, it's really not quite the same thing.

Chaos...Chaos got the 'drake.

Missed this before. What does the Heldrake (which wasn't all that until the FAQ) have to do with the Army Wide special rules the OP is asking about?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Let's not forget that Dark Angels recieved Grim Resolve and Chaos can buy Veterans of the Long War.

Yay, we can buy LD just to get slightly up to where other MEQ are.

So for the same cost as buying VOTL, they get ATSKNF, Combat Tactics (of six different kinds), and generally better costing equipment.

Yay?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Let's not forget that Dark Angels recieved Grim Resolve and Chaos can buy Veterans of the Long War.

Yay, we can buy LD just to get slightly up to where other MEQ are.

So for the same cost as buying VOTL, they get ATSKNF, Combat Tactics (of six different kinds), and generally better costing equipment.

Yay?

The discussion was about how troops are getting more rules and options.

Dark Angels suffer no negative Ld modifiers, and Chaos can opt to have better Ld and Preferred Enemy (most commonly played army), in addition to close combat weapons, marks, and icons. They were not ignored by the trend of uprating troop abilities, they just weren't as earth-shatteringly obvious as overwatch ridiculousness or almost-rending weapons. Does everything have to be stunningly awesome in every book?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Let's not forget that Dark Angels recieved Grim Resolve and Chaos can buy Veterans of the Long War.

Yay, we can buy LD just to get slightly up to where other MEQ are.

So for the same cost as buying VOTL, they get ATSKNF, Combat Tactics (of six different kinds), and generally better costing equipment.

Yay?

The discussion was about how troops are getting more rules and options.

Dark Angels suffer no negative Ld modifiers, and Chaos can opt to have better Ld and Preferred Enemy (most commonly played army), in addition to close combat weapons, marks, and icons. They were not ignored by the trend of uprating troop abilities, they just weren't as earth-shatteringly obvious as overwatch ridiculousness or almost-rending weapons. Does everything have to be stunningly awesome in every book?

Hatred is not preferred enemy. Not by a longshot, and that better LD is just making you on par with other armies who have better leadership with a better ability to ignore morale.

CCW makes you cost as much as GH, marks are generally weak unless it's one specific one (and then you want to buy plague marines instead for better cost) Most icons suck (Fear? Soul blaze?).

Currently CSM are probably the least likely thing you want to take in the army, and infact most armies that end up somewhere in the top tournaments don't ever use them. It's better to take Cheap cultists or plague marines.

Instead of awesome, how about something Worth Playing?

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/chaos-space-marines-are-for-chumps.html#more

Chaos now have the option to mark their basic Marines. Correct me if I'm wrong, couldn't you only get this with an icon that could be killed off before...? That's 4 extra options right there (admittedly, Tzeentch is a bit useless on the basic Troops mind).

Dark Angels have a number of options that buff their basic troops, instead of the troops themselves being improved, which is a nice way of doing things considering they are supposed to be ordinary Marines. I'm talking things like the Banners and the force-fields. Regardless - the fact that Greenwing is now a viable option *at all* over Deathwing/Ravenwing is a fantastic improvement.

Nah, they don't have to be stunningly awesome, but it would be better if they weren't, "We dropped some stats so you could pay points to boost them back up again. Oh, and we gave you an awesome flier to make your crap codex that's just a color version of last edition seem better."

However! This isn't the place to be whining about the CSM codex.

But yeah, troop choices aren't getting better special rules, whole armies are getting better special rules. Just wait and see what the C:SM codex looks like with it's combat doctrines. I think that'll make it a little more clear.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Chaos got nothing, same with DA.

But does DA need something like that?
They can get Terminator-troops and Biker-troops.
I would prefer them to focus more on that area than spending goodies on Tactical Squads

Same goes for my Blood Angels when they get a new codex: I don't need them to look so much at my Tacticals, I would prefer them to give all the specialness to the ASM.

Daston wrote:


Did DA and Chaos get anything?

What do you think the rest will get?

Orks to half overwatch shots when charging? Or reroll charge distance?
IG to double overwatch shots or can fall back as a charge reaction (like WHFB)

I don't know what people are smoking, but the DA and CSM have plenty of special rules for their troop choices

DA: ATSKNF, Grim Resolve, combat squad, infiltrate, move through cover (that seems like some to me )

CSM: VOTLW, Champion of Chaos, Rage, Counter Attack, Dark Glory, Furious Charge, Soul Blaze, Fear, FNP, Fearless... (yeah, nothing there )

IMO, Orks should get Rage and Furious Charge, plus Mob Rule

IG, have orders... and as crazy as this sounds, I think they'll lose combined squads and pic up something else instead.

 Lobukia wrote:

Daston wrote:


Did DA and Chaos get anything?

What do you think the rest will get?

Orks to half overwatch shots when charging? Or reroll charge distance?
IG to double overwatch shots or can fall back as a charge reaction (like WHFB)

I don't know what people are smoking, but the DA and CSM have plenty of special rules for their troop choices

DA: ATSKNF, Grim Resolve, combat squad, infiltrate, move through cover (that seems like some to me )

CSM: VOTLW, Champion of Chaos, Rage, Counter Attack, Dark Glory, Furious Charge, Soul Blaze, Fear, FNP, Fearless... (yeah, nothing there )

IMO, Orks should get Rage and Furious Charge, plus Mob Rule

IG, have orders... and as crazy as this sounds, I think they'll lose combined squads and pic up something else instead.

... Listing the stock options that generic space marines have as "troops gaining new special rules frequently in 6E" hardly makes sense. And, listing Infiltrate and Move Through Cover which generic scout squads get, and the only squad that gets them (which no one takes, also), is just misleading. Try harder.

 Lobukia wrote:

Daston wrote:


Did DA and Chaos get anything?

What do you think the rest will get?

Orks to half overwatch shots when charging? Or reroll charge distance?
IG to double overwatch shots or can fall back as a charge reaction (like WHFB)

I don't know what people are smoking, but the DA and CSM have plenty of special rules for their troop choices

DA: ATSKNF, Grim Resolve, combat squad, infiltrate, move through cover (that seems like some to me )

CSM: VOTLW, Champion of Chaos, Rage, Counter Attack, Dark Glory, Furious Charge, Soul Blaze, Fear, FNP, Fearless... (yeah, nothing there )

IMO, Orks should get Rage and Furious Charge, plus Mob Rule

IG, have orders... and as crazy as this sounds, I think they'll lose combined squads and pic up something else instead.

If you have to buy something, is it considered a base special rule? Should we consider plasma guns a special rule then.

Also..Dark glory? That's a 5++ that only HQ can buy, if you are counting the Thousand Sons 4++, that's an old rule, and you should feel bad for trying to include it as a new rule.

Champion of Chaos is more of a curse rather then a special rule, and rage/counter attack was a hamfisted way of throwing in more rules and weakening bezerkers, fear and soul blaze are horrid as well.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Daston wrote:


Did DA and Chaos get anything?

What do you think the rest will get?

Orks to half overwatch shots when charging? Or reroll charge distance?
IG to double overwatch shots or can fall back as a charge reaction (like WHFB)

I don't know what people are smoking, but the DA and CSM have plenty of special rules for their troop choices

DA: ATSKNF, Grim Resolve, combat squad, infiltrate, move through cover (that seems like some to me )

CSM: VOTLW, Champion of Chaos, Rage, Counter Attack, Dark Glory, Furious Charge, Soul Blaze, Fear, FNP, Fearless... (yeah, nothing there )

IMO, Orks should get Rage and Furious Charge, plus Mob Rule

IG, have orders... and as crazy as this sounds, I think they'll lose combined squads and pic up something else instead.

If you have to buy something, is it considered a base special rule? Should we consider plasma guns a special rule then.

Also..Dark glory? That's a 5++ that only HQ can buy, if you are counting the Thousand Sons 4++, that's an old rule, and you should feel bad for trying to include it as a new rule.

Champion of Chaos is more of a curse rather then a special rule, and rage/counter attack was a hamfisted way of throwing in more rules and weakening bezerkers, fear and soul blaze are horrid as well.

The post was about SR that troops get. If you can buy them in, without adding an outside unit, that's still a SR they get. Yeah, the CSM ones hurt a bit (either have a catch or cost points), but they still have a huge amount of SR and USR that they have access to. Instead of Dark Glory, I should have put +1 to invuln, and I could have also included +1 to T and I too.

If anything, CSM are drowning in SR... the fact that you choose and pay for them, just makes them unequal, but they're still there

I don't know what people are smoking, but the DA and CSM have plenty of special rules for their troop choices

DA: ATSKNF, Grim Resolve, combat squad, infiltrate, move through cover (that seems like some to me )

CSM: VOTLW, Champion of Chaos, Rage, Counter Attack, Dark Glory, Furious Charge, Soul Blaze, Fear, FNP, Fearless... (yeah, nothing there )

IMO, Orks should get Rage and Furious Charge, plus Mob Rule

IG, have orders... and as crazy as this sounds, I think they'll lose combined squads and pic up something else instead.

Ah yes, "Champion of Chaos" the only special rule in any codex (that I'm aware of anyway) that actually penalizes you for playing the codex. That rule is a PENALTY not a bonus. VOTLW, as already mentioned, was simply ham-fisted into the book as a way to get players to actually pay extra to get their stat line back up to where it use to be and you can't actually get any of the other rules you mentioned without paying extra (which often basically pushes your CSM rapidly towards being points inefficient). These are really not the same thing as Bladestorm or the Overwatch rule for Tau (and again I like both of those rules so I'm not crying about anything being OP here).

I must admit you've taught me something though. My group has apparently been playing DA incorrectly. Did not know some units had ATSKNF. So fair point on that one.

For some reason I agree with your IG assessment. I've been thinking the same thing.

Chaos now have the option to mark their basic Marines. Correct me if I'm wrong, couldn't you only get this with an icon that could be killed off before...? That's 4 extra options right there (admittedly, Tzeentch is a bit useless on the basic Troops mind).

By eleminating those icons they also got rid of our only practical means of preventing deep strike scatter and broke our one and only synergistic link with Demons. All so that we could get access to oddly costed marks that allow our troops to become inefficient (often wildly so) in terms of their points. Again, not the same thing as the rules the OP brought up and really not a good trade either IMO.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
that better LD is just making you on par with other armies who have better leadership with a better ability to ignore morale.

Wait, what? How is Ld 8 (majority Ld for Troops, Daemons are 7 and there are a few models/units with 9) better than Ld 9/10?

Tycho wrote:

I must admit you've taught me something though. My group has apparently been playing DA incorrectly. Did not know some units had ATSKNF. So fair point on that one.

Unfortunately Grim Resolve needs to be added to your list of "only special rule that penalizes you". Since DA have ATSKNF, you often want them to fail morale checks (especially if someone is pounding their face in during an assault). However, Grim Resolve stops this from happening more times than not. Only Scouts for the DA seem to have the presence of mind to hop out of a bad CC and shoot the enemy instead... another plus for the new SM dex over the DA dex.

IMO: stubborn for marines hurts way more than it helps

 Happyjew wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
that better LD is just making you on par with other armies who have better leadership with a better ability to ignore morale.

Wait, what? How is Ld 8 (majority Ld for Troops, Daemons are 7 and there are a few models/units with 9) better than Ld 9/10?

Mistake in words, should've mentioned MEQ armies.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
that better LD is just making you on par with other armies who have better leadership with a better ability to ignore morale.

Wait, what? How is Ld 8 (majority Ld for Troops, Daemons are 7 and there are a few models/units with 9) better than Ld 9/10?

Mistake in words, should've mentioned MEQ armies.

Who are Ld 8/9, not 9/10.

All basic CSM lost in their 1 point reduction (factoring in VotLW), was a CCW. The Champ saw a price drop of 4 pts (again factoring in VotLW) and cannot swap all three weapons in the same manner. No special rules were lost, so I'm not quite sure what the complaint is.

Chaos got a lot of new stuff for their troops in the new codex. Poison on weapons , the change to mark of nurgle means they can FnP against str 8 and 9 weapons. Maybe not as good as the flexibility the new sm codex gives , but it is still a lot.

Poison on weapons for troops?
Where?
FnP on MoN marked troops?
Where?

Methinks he's confusing Nurgle-marked marines and Plague Marines.

 Extreaminatus wrote:
Methinks he's confusing Nurgle-marked marines and Plague Marines.

Damn it man, I was going to lead him into a minefield that eventually lead to people admitting that CSM are so bad that this guy thinks plague marines are troops!
It would have been in Alpha legion fashion too

Damn! In true Alpha Legion fashion, you didn't let me in on your plan and now it's fallen apart!

OP: this trend, which I do not think is inherently bad, started with the Ork codex back at the end of 4e, so why are you blaming it on 6e? It is very clearly a 5e trend that continued into 6e because people liked it. Look at Orkz and the 5e codices that followed it:

Orkz: Got waagh and furious charge on their basic troops.
Space Marines: Gained tactics.
Imperial Guard: Gained orders.
Space Wolves: Gained acute senses and counter attack.

etc.

Akiasura wrote:
Poison on weapons for troops?
Where?
FnP on MoN marked troops?
Where?

On Plague Marines . Your taking a nurgle lord anyway so they are troops all the time .

Makumba wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Poison on weapons for troops?
Where?
FnP on MoN marked troops?
Where?

On Plague Marines . Your taking a nurgle lord anyway so they are troops all the time .

ahh what? its a poison CCW. and they are elites i thought the discussion was basic troop options? the fact that they can become troops is rather irrelevant, in 14000 pts of csm i have 1 unpainted 10 man unit of basic marines aaand that wont be changing.