kitch102 wrote:
So with the availability of supplemental codex's, I figured it was about time that DE got back in the game, and wanted to know how you would go about reinforcing their strengths and weakness, whilst keeping some sense of balance in game (ie, being able to stomp fething face in turn 1 without batting an eye lid)

Some thoughts I had that admittedly started out objectively and gradually got a little more fantastical.

One thing I will ask folks, I don't write the Codex's so if you don't agree with something, don't talk to me like I raped your dog or something, ok?

1) Improve feel no pain *Why, Pain is like a drug, so they wont feel a knife in there gut until the adrenalin wears off, but a bolter whole is still a major inconvenience. Maybe it should grant FnP, and if you already have (Give it to coven monsters) they get a plus 1*
2) Allow Wyches dodge saves to be used against overwatch. Perhaps improve this further by representing their supernatural reflexes enabling them to dodge bullets, so a 3+ save vs overwatch, 4+ inv in close combat *Meh, I don't think they need it. Smart movement and use of cover and defensive grenades I have never had to charge with less then a 5+ cover save*
3) Everything should be able to assault from reserve! Our biggest strength is our speed, yet we stand immobile like idiotic automata when walking through a web way portal or similar *Assault through Webway portal Yes, but from normal reserve, no*
4) Give our fliers vector dancer! *Agreed*
5) Mandrakes should start with their shooting attack, or be able to begin the game in assault to represent their ability to melt out of the shadows and strike the enemy down unawares *While I don't agree with first turn assaults, Mandrakes are one of the only units in the game I feel deserve it*
6) Allow Archons a purchasable re-roll that can be used once at any time in game, be it to re-roll on the combat drugs chart, or to re-roll that failed shadow field save from the first hit suffered! *Meh, it would probably be expensive at like 15/20pts so I wouldn't take it anyway*
7) Succubus should have an out of the box better save. Currently I have no reason to take her. A HQ unit with a permanent 3+ invulnerable though? *You buy the Succubus because she is simply a better wych, not to be your warlord. On the charge with a simple venom blade she is as effective as 7 wyches, so if you have a spare HQ choice, then get her*
8) Make the Archons Court a 0-X size, ie, each model type is not mandatory. I'd like to be able to take a full unit of Sslyth, though don't want to take the Ur-Ghuls if I don't feel like it. *Yes*
9) A special weapon for every Scourge! *No, keep it 2 for 5, like almost every other jump troop*
10) Tougher grotesques! *How? Its stupid to make them T6 instead of 5. These guys deserve FnP off the bat, with pain token increasing it to a 4+*
11) Tougher Wracks! Each one with a liquifier! A full unit of acid spitting death! *No, but a possible 4+ FnP with a token is good enough*
12) The dukes 3+ poison rule is great on one unit, though why not pay a small premium to upgrade every unit to 3+ poison?! *Maybe on trueborn, not warriors*
13) Trueborn, can these guys get relentless, or can they get an improved snap fire hit rate to represent them being better than the average vat-grown warrior? That way I can keep them on their transports and still have a respectable chance to hit with my big guns! *They aren't better then Vat Grown warriors, they a simply wealthier. That is represented with extra weapons*

So Dakka, bring it, what would you add / remove?

 kitch102 wrote:


1) Improve feel no pain I think you're okay to leave this alone if you add the following"
2) Allow Wyches dodge saves to be used against overwatch. Perhaps improve this further by representing their supernatural reflexes enabling them to dodge bullets, so a 3+ save vs overwatch, 4+ inv in close combat or just give them a 4+ invul base, is the overwatch really that bad? You should lose 2-3 to overwatch tops, or make them lose their overwatch if they are under 6" away or something - the enemy doesnt have time to react
3) Everything should be able to assault from reserve! Our biggest strength is our speed, yet we stand immobile like idiotic automata when walking through a web way portal or similar this is really good, if you give DE this, they maybe shouldn't have the improved FNP
4) Give our fliers vector dancer! they should have had it to start [ /color]
5) Mandrakes should start with their shooting attack, or be able to begin the game in assault to represent their ability to melt out of the shadows and strike the enemy down unawares [color=cyan] tthey should have had it to start.
6) Allow Archons a purchasable re-roll that can be used once at any time in game, be it to re-roll on the combat drugs chart, or to re-roll that failed shadow field save from the first hit suffered!
I would prefer they give them and homonculi the option to ride a skyboard or jetbike again, like they used to in the old days. It sucks that none of our characters get to join units for the most part without some penalty (cant fit them in a raider and take that 2nd weapon, etc..

7) Succubus should have an out of the box better save. Currently I have no reason to take her. A HQ unit with a permanent 3+ invulnerable though? I don't think they need it. Drop the points10 pts and everyone would take one.

8) Make the Archons Court a 0-X size, ie, each model type is not mandatory. I'd like to be able to take a full unit of Sslyth, though don't want to take the Ur-Ghuls if I don't feel like it. this is nit-picking, not necessary same with the other stuff I deleted. You don't get a new book for another 10 years now. Although 1 for 3 wouldnt be terrible for the price you pay per weapon..
13) Trueborn, can these guys get relentless, or can they get an improved snap fire hit rate to represent them being better than the average vat-grown warrior? That way I can keep them on their transports and still have a respectable chance to hit with my big guns! I think they should just allow DE or other opentopped skimmers to move 12 and shoot normally like the 5th ed rules. This is a 5thto 6th ed nerf that was totally unecessary, not a DE proble alone..


So Dakka, bring it, what would you add / remove?

 Exergy wrote:
I dont really like most of those. Other than Vector Dancer for all DE flyers I dont like them.

I would:

Make changes to the PfP chart
1 token: FNP + FC
2 tokens: Hatred(everything) + Stealth
3 tokens: Fearless + PE(everything)
4 tokens: Shred(shooting + CC) and Tank Hunter
things escalates very quickly. This makes every unit better and makes cronos and haemi's useful again.

DE warriors get ubergrit(a pistol), plasma grenades and 1 special weapon per 5 models instead of just 1.

Wyches can take 1 blast pistol as a wych weapon for 10 points and get PE MC/Single model(if they are fighting in a challenge or against a single model / MC they get PE)

Trueborn also get pistols+plasma grenades and ghost plate. +2 ppm. Every model can take a special weapon(blaster, shredder, heat lance, haywire blaster) and every other model 1/2 can take a heavy or combat weapon (DL, SC, Dissie, PW, Venom Blade)

Mandrakes get Rending, Plasma Grenades, +2 deny the wytch and PE psykers.

Hellions: cost reduced to 12ppm

Raiders + Venoms: Add a rule to reduce damage to the embarked squad when they explode by 50%(initiative test?)

Blast Pistols 10 points
DL 20 points (25! are you serious, lascannons are 20)

Scourges: Battle Focus allowing them to run and fire.

Bloodbrides: same as wyches + WS5

Talos/Cronos increase wounds to 4, or make them faster

Wracks: let the champion take a PGL

Grotesques: -5ppm or remove the requirement to have an IC.

Incubi: let Klavex take a PGL

Most of the wargear needs to be rewritten
Most of the SC need to be rewritten

 Rinkydink wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
I dont really like most of those. Other than Vector Dancer for all DE flyers I dont like them.

I would:

Make changes to the PfP chart
1 token: FNP + FC
2 tokens: Hatred(everything) + Stealth
3 tokens: Fearless + PE(everything)
4 tokens: Shred(shooting + CC) and Tank Hunter
things escalates very quickly. This makes every unit better and makes cronos and haemi's useful again.

^^Good selection! I actually like most of these...

The PfP table looks a little crazy. (Crazy good... amirite!) But the inclusion of Shred and PE should be in there for certain.

Trueborn: Ghostplate and plasma, yes, yes, yes. But a melee weapon for every other, well, I'm not sold on that. Venomblades etc. should be the province of the Bloodbrides if we're giving them to elites.

Exploding transports, however annoying are still a bane, and I see no reason for them to change that unfortunately.

Certainly the SC's need a lot of re-work. Lelith should have EW for a start, and Kedraukh (sp?) well, there are no words for how much of an overhaul he needs.