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OK so most of the local tournaments are 2400 points around me so I have decided to try my hand at this pts level to see how the models I have stack up. C&C greatly appreciated:

Skaven (Standard) Selections:






5x Giant Rats, Packmaster



5x Giant Rats, Packmaster



5x Giant Rats, Packmaster



5x Giant Rats, Packmaster

Lords (500pts)

Grey Seer (500pts)

Dragonbane Gem , Earthing Rod , Skalm , The Screaming Bel

Heroes (290pts)

Chieftain

Battle Standard Bearer , Charmed Shield , Talisman of Preservation

Warlock Engineer


Dispel Scroll , Skaven Spells of Ruin, Wizard Level 2

Warlock Engineer
Doomrocket

Core (602pts)

Clanrats

Standard Bearer , Warpfire Thrower
40x Clanrats

40x Shield


Clanrats
20x Clanrats

20x Shield


Skavenslaves

Musician
50x Skavenslaves

50x Shield
Skavenslaves

Musician
50x Skavenslaves

50x Shield

Special (441pts)

Gutter Runners (162pts)

Two hand weapons
9x Gutter Runners

Poisoned Attacks ,Slings

Rat Ogres (279pts)

Master-bred Rat Ogre , 3x Packmaster , 6x Rat Ogre

Rare (475pts)

Doomwheel
Hell Pit Abomination
Warp Lightning Cannon

...can you put that in a more readable format?

Otherwise, looks solid.

Reformat -

 More Dakka wrote:
OK so most of the local tournaments are 2400 points around me so I have decided to try my hand at this pts level to see how the models I have stack up.

Grey Seer: Dragonbane Gem , Earthing Rod , Skalm , The Screaming Bel
Chieftain: Battle Standard Bearer , Charmed Shield , Talisman of Preservation
Warlock: Level 2, Dispel Scroll
Warlock: Doomrocket

40 Clanrats, shield, standard, Warpfire Thrower
20 Clanrats, shields
2x50 Skavenslaves, musician
4x Rat packs, 5 rats + 1 Packmaster

9 Gutter Runners, slings, poison
Rat Ogres: Master-bred Rat Ogre , 3x Packmaster , 6x Rat Ogre

Doomwheel
Hell Pit Abomination
Warp Lightning Cannon

Seems like the list lacks direction. The big block of clan rats wants a musician (so that you win on ties). The block of 20 Clan Rats has no purpose; it's too small to go into combat, but it doesn't bring anything to the table. It's just dead weight. The BSB is geared to survive, but he's going to be in a front rank somewhere, and doesn't have a halberd/greatweapon.
If you're going to run rat ogres, they do a lot better with a master moulder along with the master bred rat. That gives you 2 unit champs in one unit, which allows for solid challenge options.

-Matt

I'd say swap the 20 clanrats out for slaves, add Skweel to the Rogres and keep the BSB as he is. You want him to survive, not fight. He is literally the most important thing in the army.

Here are my two Warptokens:

- gonna' agree with Matt on basically everything there.Drop those 20 Clanrats. I'd tack 10 of them on to your unit of 40, since they're pushing the Bell. And always--ALWAYS--take a musician. 4pts for +1 on ties is okay, but 4pts for a Fast Reform is awesome on a unit that big.

- I'd also get your Chieftain a halberd. I have found, time and again, that losing a point of armour to gain a point of Strength will lead to him surviving more often. Sometimes, the only way out is to kill your way out.

- Slaves with shields are always a bad idea (1 in 6 shields saves a Slave. 6 shields costs 3pts, 1 Slave costs 2pts). I'm guessing they're IoB Slaves, so you kinda' have to take them with shields?

- 9 Gutter Runners is a bit much for me, but I can see why you'd want 18 poisoned shots in one turn. After they've taken out enemy war machines, though, I've discovered that a Deathrunner with Smoke Bombs can drastically increase how much mayhem these guys can cook up.

- a Master-Bred Rat Ogre and a Packmaster are solid choices.
I personally hate Skweel. He's a 100pts worth of random buffs. Even if you roll up Regeneration, that means you're paying almost 17pts/Rat Ogre in a unit of 6. I'd rather just take more regular bodies. At least then I know what I'm getting.
Also, I assume people have told you that Rat Ogres aren't that good? They look good on paper (an Ogre Bull with +1S, +2I, and Frenzy for 20pts!), but they lack any kind of staying power.
Still, I use 'em, now and again, and have managed to make them at least somewhat useful.

Hmm ok some good points here. What if I went with this:

Grey Seer: Dragonbane Gem , Earthing Rod , Skalm , The Screaming Bel

Chieftain: Battle Standard Bearer , Charmed Shield , Talisman of Preservation
Halberd

Warlock: Level 2, Dispel Scroll

Warlock: Doomrocket

50 Clanrats, shield, standard, Warpfire Thrower

2x60 Skavenslaves, shields musician (@Warpsolution you are correct, I am stuck with shields as I have IoB guys also I am stuck with them to make up points for the total number of skaven bodies I have at the moment, 160)

4x Rat packs, 5 rats + 1 Packmaster

7 Gutter Runners, slings, poison

Rat Ogres: Master-bred Rat Ogre , Master Moulder 3x Packmaster , 6x Rat Ogre

Doomwheel
Hell Pit Abomination
Warp Lightning Cannon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit* I also like Rat Ogres, great models and some solid hitting power. I have been reading a LOT about them on forums and it seems as long as they're used to flank or take out chaff, overrun and get into the sides of the enemy they do well, if they go head to head with anything S4 or more (or poison/multiple attacks) then they just fall apart, but as a scalpel they should be useful. Is this correct?

Rat Ogres can be decent, but master moulder are crap as they must always be in the first rank (they're champions)
what's usually the best way to run them is:
Master Bred+Rat Ogre + 1/2 PackMasters in a single conga line
This way you got 8 S5 attacks + a supporting whip attack while minimizing losses because:
- small frontage
- wounds on the Masterbred don't overflow on the rest (champion + different profile)
- you can challenge with the Masterbred, thus allowing no attack at all from the opponent's unit (as long as your MasterBred doesn't die at a high initiative step)

They're great at suicide murdering wizards, especially if you're facing low-medium initiative

Big units are very hard to run as they're very susceptible to shooting, won't break any powerful CC unit on their own and they're too big to be easily used for flanking

The conga-line style can work, but if you're going for anything else with a bit more staying power, a Master Moulder is yet another Champion to issue a Challenge, which means that your Master-bred is free to cut into the unit and/or that the big scary combat character in that unit can't touch your Rat Ogres for a full game-turn.

Large units of Rat Ogres are indeed vulnerable to shooting. But they pose almost as much of a threat as an A-bomb, so the two together can absorb fire for each other.
And as for flanking; we're Skaven. If anyone can out-deploy their opponent, pin them down, and charge for a flank, it's us.

We're talking about sublty manoeuvering a Frenzied Ld 5-6 unit with a potential 18" charge range
It just doesn't work most of the time

The big difference between Abomb and ROgres is that the Rat Ogres die in droves to S3 shooting while the Abomb only starts to really care at S4+
It's also much harder to chaff and redirect due to Random movement (and its 3d6 pursuit) and not being frenzied, Rat Ogres are just too easy to be frenzy-baited.
You don't really care if they bait away 100 points of ROgres, but if we're talking 350 pts of Frenzied beatstick pursuing chickens, it's getting annoying

That's when you screen them with Skavenslaves and Rat Darts. Run the Slaves 10 wide in front of the Rat Ogres, then reform to 5-wide once they're about to receive a charge.

I'm not saying it's the best ever, but it works pretty well. And yes, the Abomination is harder to deal with. He is an...efficient monster.
Though, for the record, Rat Ogres do not "die in droves to S3 shooting". It takes about 21 BS4 S3 shots with no penalties to take down 1 Rat Ogre.

But I do agree; I like my mini-hammers of 2 Rat Ogres. Though, if I can get them into combat with I3 or less, I usually run them both in the front. It's not like they'll last more than one round anyway.

This is going the way of a lot of Skaven discussions here and other WHFB forums I frequent. If anything it just tells me that there's more than one way to skin a man-thing with units like ROgers. I am leaning towards the conga-line style actually, works better for the models I have now and I like the idea of using them as a specialized beat-stick.

I am not sold on gutter runners still. I just don't understand how they work, so you scout them forward at deployment but they still have to move and shoot at long range, so even with 9 of them it's 6's to hit (that are auto wounds) but that's an average 3 wounds and most artillery style warmachines have 5+ armor at least, so I'm not sure how they're expected to actually take out a cannon T1. Can anyone tell me what I am missing here? If I 86 the Gutter Runners I can do a list with another L1, more slaves and 3 ROger-lines (need to figure out a good short form for them):

Grey Seer: Dragonbane Gem , Earthing Rod , Skalm , The Screaming Bell

Chieftain: Battle Standard Bearer , Charmed Shield , Talisman of Preservation
Halberd

Warlock: Level 2, Dispel Scroll

Warlock: Level 1 Warp Energy Condenser Doomrocket

50 Clanrats, shield, standard+musician, Warpfire Thrower

2 x 70 Skavenslaves, shields musician

4x Rat packs, 5 rats + 1 Packmaster



Rat Ogre
Masterbred
Packmaster

Rat Ogre
Masterbred
Packmaster

Rat Ogre
Masterbred
Packmaster

Doomwheel

Hell Pit Abomination

Warp Lightning Cannon

TanKoL wrote:
Rat Ogres can be decent, but master moulder are crap as they must always be in the first rank (they're champions)
what's usually the best way to run them is:
Master Bred+Rat Ogre + 1/2 PackMasters in a single conga line
This way you got 8 S5 attacks + a supporting whip attack while minimizing losses because:
- small frontage
- wounds on the Masterbred don't overflow on the rest (champion + different profile)
- you can challenge with the Masterbred, thus allowing no attack at all from the opponent's unit (as long as your MasterBred doesn't die at a high initiative step)

They're great at suicide murdering wizards, especially if you're facing low-medium initiative

Big units are very hard to run as they're very susceptible to shooting, won't break any powerful CC unit on their own and they're too big to be easily used for flanking

Just pointing out you won't get the whip attack. Packmasters can only attack across 1 rank of rat ogres, and you'd have 2.

Still a good idea though, never thought about trying them that way.

oh well, never had the whip do anything anyway (was playing the whip like with GRats)
For Gutter Runners, they're probably the best skirmishers in the whole game with poisoned slings
Most "normal" warmachines have no save or close enough
Dwarves have light armour
Empire have no armour
Skaven have no armour
Elves have light armour
.... Only weird machines (Skullcannons and the like) have a good armour save, but with poison and some brains, everything is possible!
I already ran down ironblasters and the like as you get the charge+ flank usually, while he can only fight back with the Ogre+gnoblar due to the thing being a chariot
They're awesome monster hunters as well, they will murder Phoenixes with ease for instance

And they're very good in CC as well, they have good Ld on their own (well 7 is good for Skaven) and they will murder most chaff they encounter
Against a smart opponent, Scouting is often not really the way to go, except if he protect his flanks with a measly 5 dogs or such as you'll be able to murder them on the stand&shoot (remember the throwing stars qith quick to fire) and then often attack first with loads of WS4 poisoned attacks.
If your opponent really protect his flanks well, you can then just use them as ambushers. They'll come in a bit later, but they will roam the rear lines quite freely

Gutter Runners are certainly good, but I'd have to put Chameleon Skinks above them; not as good in close combat, but more resistant to shooting and a full 6pts cheaper.
The main thing that Gutter Runners have over other units, for me, is that I5. That makes them faster than any non-elf, non-daemon chaff they're going to run into.

The problem with Sneaky Infiltrators is that, by the time they show up, the war machines they've been sent to take out have often done their job of damaging your high-cost, low-wound targets (Bell, Furnace, A-bomb, Wheel, and Cannon).

OK I am seeing how effective they can be with their scouting. Would my list suffer as it is now without them?

You've got a Bell, A-bomb, and a 'Wheel, so enemy war machines could lay down a lot of hurt there.

As for shooting, the Cannon is good at picking off targets, but the 'Thrower is not, so a Death Squad would serve you well there, too.

Gutter Runners are just so damn versatile. I usually run them in really small units, to keep them below enemy radar and to fit them in where they need to go, but, of course, the downside is that their output is less that way. It's a matter of local meta and taste, I'd say.

OK I get it now, also they're hitting on 5's if they get deployed with scouts so that's a bit more efficient. If I drop 1 conga line of ROgers I can fit 8 Runners in there, would that be good or should I take a Deathrunner with smoke bombs as well? I like the idea but it's a lot of points for a little unit:

Grey Seer: Dragonbane Gem , Earthing Rod , Skalm , The Screaming Bell

Chieftain: Battle Standard Bearer , Charmed Shield , Talisman of Preservation
Halberd

Warlock: Level 2, Dispel Scroll

Warlock: Level 1 Warp Energy Condenser Doomrocket

60 Clanrats, shield, standard+musician, Warpfire Thrower

2 x 50 Skavenslaves, shields musician

4x Rat packs, 5 rats + 1 Packmaster

Specials

8 Gutter Runners
Slings + Poison

Rat Ogre
Masterbred
Packmaster

Rat Ogre
Masterbred
Packmaster


Doomwheel

Hell Pit Abomination

Warp Lightning Cannon

I'd drop the Death Squad down a model, maybe even two, and then get those upgrades. With six Runners, that's 130pts, that is going to be hard to target and doesn't pose an immediate threat to much of anything besides war machines. I think most players would be forced to overlook them in favor of more obvious targets, and deal with all the obnoxiousness that the unit can cause later.

with gutter runners, remember the magic numbers for panic. 8 models, 2 die and its a panic test, 9 models 3 need to die before panic. 5 models 2 need to die before panic, same as 8 models. So I would suggest taking 9 models or 2 units of 5.

I'm still not sold on the small rat ogre packs, with 4 rat darts you have more than enough chaff, so I would drop them for more gutter runners and maybe think about putting spikes on the HPA

It's not useful to have 60 ClanRats in the Bell unit
30-40 is quite enough as they should be hiding behind Slaves and you don't want them in CC with anything serious anyway as the opponent will just slaughter the Seer and the BSB
If you want to keep the same global configuration, I'd change them for fewer Stormvermins and include a StormBanner, you don't have much shooting to shut down on your side

I prefer smaller units of Gutter Runners, so they can fit where ever they'll be the biggest nuisance. But yeah, 9 and 5 are the typical numbers.

Spikes on the Abomination are a liability nowadays, I'd say. If you ever run into the Banner of the World Dragon, you'd wish you'd spent those 15pts elsewhere. Skaven have enough Warpstone elsewhere.

I also think that 30 Clanrats pushing the Bell is just begging for trouble. If I went up against that, I'd gladly take a -2 to shoot through some Slaves to immobilize the Bell. Assuming I wouldn't just magic/war machine it into stationary-ness.

The Stormbanner is a good idea, though. Especially with the 'Wheel, A-bomb, and Bell all there.

Well, I'd gladly let you shoot with a -3/4 (long range and eventually movement) to to try and kill my Clanrats pushing the Bell (But I go with 40 with the Bell usually, 30 is if it's a regular bunker w/o Bell), that means that Elvens Longbows would need ... 360 shots (at -3) to drop the Clanrats unit to 10, then you can start to slow the Bell down (by the way, most defensive Skaven Bell builds don't care that much if the Bell moves or not)

All of that is fine and dandy, but my point remains: 30 is a very small unit to be pushing a bell. Which you seem to agree with yourself, since you normally run 40.

Also, I can't imagine how it'd be okay if your lvl4 (who'se probably your General) became stationary. I mean, sure, it doesn't lose you the game. But it sure as Hell doesn't make it easier.

Because my army has higher firepower than my opponents and my Slaves won't be pushing to his lines
The only time my Bell unit had any significant losses was against 2 IF Final Transmute in a row (of course, the Bell, Seer and BSB got tranformed ...), and I fielded it about 20 times in 8th (got back recently into WHFB)
Oh of course, those casualties don't take into account my miscasts and doubles on the Bell chart, that's usually the cause #1 of death in the Bell unit