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Alright, so I accept first and foremost Land Raiders are transport, and that is what you are paying for with the majority of points. But I just feel their lack of firepower doesn't offset their point cost.
There are only a few differences that separate 35 points from 250 points:
1. AV 14 vs AV 11(10 rear)
2. Terminator transport
3. A few mediocre guns.
4. POTMS

So what can you get with 250 points:
Anti-AV
1. AV 14 transport, POTMS, 2 TL LAz, TL Heavy Bolter, termy tansport
-or-
1. AV 11(10rear) transport, 9 Dev marines (4 M.Launcher), 5 bolter shots
2. AV 11(10rear) transport, 5 Dev Marines (3 Laz) (1 M.Launcher) +5 extra points, 1 bolter shot
3. AV 12 (Drop Pod), "" ""
4. 2 Laz Sponson preds +10 pts

Anti Infantry
1. AV14, POTMS, 6 TL Bolter shots, TL AC, termy transport
-or-
1. AV x transport, 2 TF Cannon, 15 pts
2 ^^^^^ need I say more?
3.5 man Termy Squad (1 Assault Cannon), 8 Bolter shots
4. 3 Whirlwinds, -5pts
5. 2 Vindicator, +20pts

Anti Infantry (flame template)
1. AV 14, POTMS, 2 templates (6 str 3 AP), TL AC, Termy transport
-or-
1. 2 AV x transport, 3 Land Speeders,2 flamer each,
2. 2 dreadnoughts (2 heavy flamer and close combat weapon each), 2 drop pods, -30 pts




All in all, I find it is hard to see why anyone would use the land raider unless you need transport for your termies.
What is the other side of the coin when i am thinking that the thunderfire cannon makes a mockery of the redeemer and crusader?
What is the other side of the coin when I am thinking that 3 HF/HF land raiders are a better choice than the redeemer if you want flame templates?
The only Land Raider that I think is viable is the Vanilla (why doesn't anyone use it???) as its only real competition is 2 Predators, but they have very low side armor, but they do have 2 auto-cannons, but besides that they only get an average 1 extra autocannon hit, and once one of them dies, the LR wins out.

I know I am thinking about Land Raiders in terms of gun boats, but I am trying to see why anyone would use them if they are not transporting termies, as drop pods get your squad there faster and safer.

Anyway, throw some knowledge on me.

Thanks in advance!

Well, you're right about one thing, Terminators usually need a Land Raider to do the most damage, at least Chaos Terminators usually do (not a Space Marines guy).

But the steep investment for any Terminators can really be worth it for the reasons of board control and assaults.

The Land Raider will of course strike fear into the enemy making her or him think "I must deal with this, and that right quick!". So they will be forced to devote their most powerful long range firepower to the Land Raider, or move their puny short range meltas into range. Either way you're forcing them to do something, which can be exploited if you're ready for it. If you're trying to move up some other fast squad to get in range, that can help them survive to actually be able to get in range. The LR can also just provide good LOS blocking, or at least cover on the move. My Chaos JuggerAxeLord with Spawn is a good example of a unit that needs cover on the move, or just a diversion.

Secondly, Terminators coming in via Deepstrike cannot assault of course when they arrive, so they'll need to shoot stuff. Do they really have that devastating of shooting? Seems like usually they just have a bunch of bolters and assault cannons, neither of which are super impressive (unless you've got a DA list going). The shoulder mounted Whirlwinds are powerful, but they don't need deepstriking with their range, nor Land Raiders.....but Devastators are cheaper right? So again, DA with Termie Troops can stand back with long range firepower, but most others need to be close. And then you still won't be assaulting until Turn 3 usually IF you get into decent range coming in from Reserves without mishap.

So the Land Raider provides that mobility and the ability to come out firing AND charging when needed, making your Terminators that much more deadly and useful. If the LR doesn't get popped on the way, which admittedly does happen, once the Terminators are out, the opponent will probably not be focusing on the tank anymore, and it's free to shoot and ram and whatever.

That's what I've found, give it a try!

All Land Raiders are very tough assault taxis. With the enlarge capacity, Crusaders and Redeemers do it even better, in addition to the pile of anti-infantry weapons they both carry.

I am confused how lascannons and a multi-melta are "mediocre guns"? really?

And, much like the mathhammer foolishness, not everything in 40k will be defined by the numbers alone. Land Raiders are a huge psychological terror. Once one sees one.on the table. Everyone wants to shoot it. In a number of games, I have seen players, myself included, dump shot afrer shot into a Land Raider and ignore other threats.

Land Raiders have only one big weakness: 6e. The new vehicle damage rules make it a bit easier to kill a laege vehicle, especially Necrons. 4 6s and a warrior squad has killed a Land Raider. It has also become the only assault taxi as models disembarking from a stationary rhino can no loger assault. So an assault unit has to buy a more expensive vehicle or walk.

Long story short: there are a lot of aspects to the Land Raiders. Only practice will tell whether or not you have the ability.to use one.

Remember also that some armies have real issues dealing with AV14. Sure, there's some that are loaded with melta and lascannons but you can't plan for everything.

Recently saw a 'competitive' tau army go up against a chaos 3x land raider list. The tau had no answer for the raiders so it turned into a bad day for the communist space fish.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:


I am confused how lascannons and a multi-melta are "mediocre guns"? really?

I could have been more clear. I was trying to allude to the fact that I thought tha lascannon was a good gun when I said that I thought the vanilla land raider was the only viable one. However, I really wouldn't want to be in the range to ever use a multi melta on a land raider, though they are useful. But I stand by the statement when talking about the other land raiders: two hurricane bolters will do very little that what your troops inside couldn't handle about 10x more efficiently, the flamestorm cannon (while good) forces you to be in melta range to use (where as the lascannon which, I DO, like, you can use in melta range OR use 60" away after movemen) and again what can these do that your troops inside couldnt handle about 4x as efficiently, the twin linked heavy bolter matches with the long range of the lascannon so thats at least decent, and the twin linked assault cannon is good.

Oh, and thank you all of your help.

". Land Raiders are a huge psychological terror."


No, they're not. Quit assigning magical "fear points" to units like this. Usually land raiders are spitting out over costed terminators that are one sacrificial unit away from being shot off the table.

When my opponent brings land raiders, I'm somewhat glad, because that's a lot of points for not much dakka.

Martel732 wrote:
". Land Raiders are a huge psychological terror."


No, they're not. Quit assigning magical "fear points" to units like this. Usually land raiders are spitting out over costed terminators that are one sacrificial unit away from being shot off the table.

When my opponent brings land raiders, I'm somewhat glad, because that's a lot of points for not much dakka.

Ya, Ive never had anyone ever in my local meta not be level headed when facing any of my LRs, even when I field more than one (got 3)

Maybe I'm a bit spoiled, because my BA sleep with their melta guns and don't leave home without them, but still. The land raider is more expensive than a helldrake and a lot less killy.

Firstly, let me agree with you - the crusader and redeemer are rubbish. Their slight increase in carrying capacity over the regular raider doesn't come close to what they lose.

Anyways, as for the raider, I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. Instead of starting with a rhino (which is an absurd comparison), start by comparing it to a tri-las predator instead. For 100 extra points, what do you get?

Firstly, you get a bit better firepower. 2LCs and a TLLC aren't as good as 2 TLLCs and a multimelta, especially once you start talking about power of the machine spirit.

Secondly, the durability difference is shocking. AV13/11 with 3 HP is nowhere in the same league as AV14/14 with 4. Predators have to be very careful where they go, and what fire lanes they can exploit, because if your opponent can get a side shot in, they're no more durable than a rhino, which is pathetic. Furthermore, close combat will instantly vaporise a predator, while the land raider shrugs off powerfists like it just doesn't care about them. Anything can kill a predator, while only the best weapons can even hurt a land raider.

And so right away, its cost is starting to look justifiable, and that's before you even consider that, unlike a predator, it is also a transport.

This means you can hide cheap scoring units in it that are pretty unlikely to get killed before the end of the game drop off. This means you can hide scoring units and reliably get them onto your opponents' objectives. Or non-scoring units and reliably contest them. The strategic implication of being able to point at somewhere on the table and say "I'll have that spot of the board, thank you" is pretty big, strategically.

And then there's the assault ramp. It's the only vehicle in any codex that you can take them that's a serious assault vehicle (yes, and I'm including storm ravens). With basically everything else in the entire game, you've got a choice of assaulting or being transported, but not both (unless you're dark eldar, in which case neither of those are going to be true after turn 3...). The problem with assault is that you can't get into it fast enough or safely enough anymore. The land raider fixes both of those problems. It allows you to assault in a shooty edition, which, given that everyone is set up to handle shooty armies, can be a pretty big thing as well.

So, let's review. You have a predator. And for 100 points more, you get a bit more killing power, and it becomes invincible against most stuff, and it guarantees that you take or contest an objective, and it preserves your forces in a durable transport for later use, and it allows you to be good at something that most people are weak at at the moment.

And it looks hugely badass.

Sounds like it's worth the expense to me.

The role of the land raider is that of a fire magnet first, transport second, and weapons plaform third.
indeed, 6e is the bane fo most mech armies, however, that doesn't make the land raider a slouch. it has 4 hull points and av 14 all around, so that limits the effectiveness of many weapons against it. it can laugh off anything s7 or less, and s8 will only get glances on it.
with new disembarking rules, a single independant character can stay in the transport when the rest of the models get out. with this you can place a techmarine inside of it (even more of a points sink, i know) but you have a self repairing mobile bunker. At this point it becomes a psychological game as an opponent dumps most of its anti vehicle weaponry at it, then it repairs a hullpoint next turn.

as far as it being a weapons platform, POTMS can let you use the land raider as a good anti vehicle platform. for the points you pay for it, you get 2 twin linked lasconnon shots that can target two different units. Yes other units can do this for cheaper, but it's nowhere near as tough, oh AND Because it's mounted on a vehicle, move and shoot without snap firing. a fun tactic I like to use is to empty the land raider of it's occupants to stand in front, thereby granting the land raider a cover save (25% coverage is all that's needed) until a safe amount of threats have been neutralised, then pop them back in. on that note, the size of the land raider is good enough to provide cover for most units. fighting a horde army? take two land raiders and turbo boost them on the edges of a large horde unit, that unit will have to consolidate into the middle, making it rife for flame template love.

is the land raider perfect? no. I for one would love to see a pure transport option (think capacity 20) land raider with a couple of pintle mounted guns, ceramite plating and assault grenades.

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, let me agree with you - the crusader and redeemer are rubbish. Their slight increase in carrying capacity over the regular raider doesn't come close to what they lose.

Anyways, as for the raider, I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. Instead of starting with a rhino (which is an absurd comparison), start by comparing it to a tri-las predator instead. For 100 extra points, what do you get?

Firstly, you get a bit better firepower. 2LCs and a TLLC aren't as good as 2 TLLCs and a multimelta, especially once you start talking about power of the machine spirit.

Secondly, the durability difference is shocking. AV13/11 with 3 HP is nowhere in the same league as AV14/14 with 4. Predators have to be very careful where they go, and what fire lanes they can exploit, because if your opponent can get a side shot in, they're no more durable than a rhino, which is pathetic. Furthermore, close combat will instantly vaporise a predator, while the land raider shrugs off powerfists like it just doesn't care about them. Anything can kill a predator, while only the best weapons can even hurt a land raider.

And so right away, its cost is starting to look justifiable, and that's before you even consider that, unlike a predator, it is also a transport.

This means you can hide cheap scoring units in it that are pretty unlikely to get killed before the end of the game drop off. This means you can hide scoring units and reliably get them onto your opponents' objectives. Or non-scoring units and reliably contest them. The strategic implication of being able to point at somewhere on the table and say "I'll have that spot of the board, thank you" is pretty big, strategically.

And then there's the assault ramp. It's the only vehicle in any codex that you can take them that's a serious assault vehicle (yes, and I'm including storm ravens). With basically everything else in the entire game, you've got a choice of assaulting or being transported, but not both (unless you're dark eldar, in which case neither of those are going to be true after turn 3...). The problem with assault is that you can't get into it fast enough or safely enough anymore. The land raider fixes both of those problems. It allows you to assault in a shooty edition, which, given that everyone is set up to handle shooty armies, can be a pretty big thing as well.

So, let's review. You have a predator. And for 100 points more, you get a bit more killing power, and it becomes invincible against most stuff, and it guarantees that you take or contest an objective, and it preserves your forces in a durable transport for later use, and it allows you to be good at something that most people are weak at at the moment.

And it looks hugely badass.

Sounds like it's worth the expense to me.

Another post by you which has very good points, is well organized, and is a pleasure and an education to read. Thank you. I agree whole-heartedly.

As a dark angels player I think land raiders are one of the best things in the codex. Dakka banner + 2 LRCS= 48 tl bolter shots a round. OUCH!

Yeah as a DA player they are the bee's knee's.

A bolter bannered Crusader with the DW Vehicle upgrade and a PFG nearby is insanely hard to kill. Mine survived 8(!) meltagun shots without taking any damage.

If you aren't DA though they are a little less attractive.

A Black Templars Land Raider Crusader filled with a pack of ticked off crusaders and the Emperor's Champion is a mean linebreaker unit. Having Land Raiders.as troop transports is a nasty upgrade.

The biggest problem I see with people who take Land Raiders is that they only take one. 1 Land Raider isn't much of a problem at all, especially for the new Tau and Eldar. You always need to take at least two of them, and depending on the passengers, that's gonna cost you close to half your total points if not more.

Basically you need to build your entire army around the Land Raiders you bring, something I see very few players do...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
The biggest problem I see with people who take Land Raiders is that they only take one. 1 Land Raider isn't much of a problem at all, especially for the new Tau and Eldar. You always need to take at least two of them, and depending on the passengers, that's gonna cost you close to half your total points if not more.

Basically you need to build your entire army around the Land Raiders you bring, something I see very few players do...

this is very true. when making a list, it's two or none for me. due to the high points cost, it can be prohibitive to take two, but it always seems to be worht it- unless i'm facing lance weaponry

gealgain wrote:
At this point it becomes a psychological game as an opponent dumps most of its anti vehicle weaponry at it, then it repairs a hullpoint next turn.

I cant understand this talk about psychological games. Why would my opponent have trouble just ignoring my big box with 2 lascannons duct taped to it? Why does a Land raider seem scary to anyone? It's just a transport that is not worth the effort to focus your fire on until other, better targets are shot first.

if you can resist the temptation to take out the big bad, good for you! Most I've played against can't fight that urge. however, if you do decide to ignore it, i will make sure that you regret it

Also, you must never underestimate POTMS. I can't count the number of times I've used both the multi-melta and assault cannon to pop two vehicles at once, or use POTMS for the multi-melta on a transport and then fire the rest of my weapons into the unit once it blows up.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
or use POTMS for the multi-melta on a transport and then fire the rest of my weapons into the unit once it blows up.

I dont think that's legal. You must fire all your weapons at the same time.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Also, you must never underestimate POTMS. I can't count the number of times I've used both the multi-melta and assault cannon to pop two vehicles at once, or use POTMS for the multi-melta on a transport and then fire the rest of my weapons into the unit once it blows up.

Absolutely! Using the vanilla (or godhammer) TL lascannon makes for some very effective firing lanes. A deathwing army has no other way of bringing lascannons unless they go with green marines.
To the naysayers of land raiders, it's natural to not like having that many points rolled up into a single unit, that's understandable, In a pinch i will always take a land raider, it's just such a versatile platform with durability that's very hard to find.

Polecat wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
or use POTMS for the multi-melta on a transport and then fire the rest of my weapons into the unit once it blows up.

I dont think that's legal. You must fire all your weapons at the same time.

You may be right, my friends get into arguments about it all the time (we both use land raiders so this comes up a lot), and the two times we asked the GW guys about it, one said yes, the other no

But lets not derail this thread.

As a Black Templars player,

I know reading that first line was rough, since we have almost nothing of value and the credibility of my statement will be judged with a certain amount of skepticism due to that. But fret not, my dear friend. For the Templars, your Crusader Transport is your lifeline. These days, there are very few lists worth running, and each list has to be tailor made to the enemy list, knowing they're going to either wreck you, or be caught entirely off-guard. This is all assuming you've ever touched a Black Templar Codex, or you're picking the new SM Codex up next month. (I hope this is all the same then, but we never know!)

* Land Raider Crusader for Black Templars is a Dedicated Transport.
* Land Raider Crusader for Black Templars with Melta Gun included, is 250pts.
* Land Raider Crusader for Black Templars can take Blessed Hull for 10pts, which ignores the Lance effect.
* If you're Templars, you're doing one of two things. You're either trying to be a shooty army, when you can't stay on an objective because of RZ.
OR
You're setting up a few firing squads with 5-man groups, with 3 Bolters, 1 Plasma, 1 Lascannon, gunning things down that are a threat to your Land Raider, while your Land Raider delivers eight Assault Terminators into their face. Or a 14 man Crusader Squad, and an Emperor's Champion into their face.

The Land Raider as a standard tank has it's benefits, but it's... It can't tell if it's a transport, or a main combat tank, but there's one thing for sure: It is as tough as a rock. Whatever you do with it, at your discretion, it is nigh impenetrable. There are few weapons in the game that can affect them, the Templars one even moreso.

But to put my Templars hard-on in the back,

A LRC for the Space Marines is just as effective, only it doesn't have Blessed Hull, so it wouldn't be the best plan to run one against the Eldar. But against almost every other army, they'll have to crack it open like a solid steel walnut. So you are fairly open to moving without worry, or spearheading a charge into the enemy lines. No matter how much we decide to discuss the numbers on a vehicle, tactics is always what matters with how a unit will perform.

One tactic I've seen a generic marines player friend of mine use, is set up an Aegis Line with a LR behind it, and several Razorbacks, and set up a firing line, and preserve his tanks until about turn 4, since he will have a 4+ Cover to save him, and AP rolls they will have to pass. So on the off chance they actually penetrate the LR, you will get a 4+ Cover. Sorry, turn 3, is about where you need to maneuver. You flat out over the Aegis line, whether you have an exit on the side, or you get dangerous and drive over it (After all, it's just a one, right? ) Land on your objective after flatting out, or being well near it, turn four you disembark your cargo on the objective, turn five you hold it. Or you can take it one turn later and contest them all.

Those are just some ball park tactics, take them into account. As a Templars player, I've literally played a two thousand point game, and taken.. four Land Raider Crusaders, just to mow everything down. They're as tough as sin.

That's where the value is. Statistics.

One possible use for them that hasn't been touched upon yet is that they represent a rather large chunk of blocking line of sight. Essentially, they're mobile cover, not just for the unit inside but whatever you care to put behind it too.

All its other benefits have been touched upon already so I will only say further that I'm in the camp of "go big or go home". One on its own isn't much of a threat to anyone that's thought ahead to take dedicated anti-armour.

You should also take in account that LR increases your terminator's threat range by 18'' (12'' for the movement and 6'' for disembarkation movement). It makes a HUGE difference!

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Polecat wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
or use POTMS for the multi-melta on a transport and then fire the rest of my weapons into the unit once it blows up.

I dont think that's legal. You must fire all your weapons at the same time.

You may be right, my friends get into arguments about it all the time (we both use land raiders so this comes up a lot), and the two times we asked the GW guys about it, one said yes, the other no

But lets not derail this thread.

POTMS lets you do that read it in the BRB

Jpat1213 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Polecat wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
or use POTMS for the multi-melta on a transport and then fire the rest of my weapons into the unit once it blows up.

I dont think that's legal. You must fire all your weapons at the same time.

You may be right, my friends get into arguments about it all the time (we both use land raiders so this comes up a lot), and the two times we asked the GW guys about it, one said yes, the other no

But lets not derail this thread.

POTMS lets you do that read it in the BRB

No, BRB on POTMS page 40 says you must still follow the normal rules of shooting, which means all weapons must fire at the same time.

Also, to AstraVlad, you cant disembark if you move 12". You can only disembark if you move 6".

But since this is not a rules discussion, i won't comment on these subjects further.

Jpat1213 wrote:

POTMS lets you do that read it in the BRB

No, it does not. POTMS USR exact wording is: "In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon ar its full Ballistic Skilt than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting" (BRB, p. 40). And normal shooting sequence (BRB, page 12) requires you to nominate target for the unit (not weapon!) first and only then make a To Hit rolls. So with POTMS you are only allowed to shoot targets that are present on the table at the moment you declare targets for your vehicle's weapons. Embarked passengers can not be targeted direcrly in any way so no shooting at them even with POTMS.

And remember you have to nominatre targets for both normal shooting and POTMS shootig before making any To Hit and To Wound/Penetration rolls!

Polecat wrote:

Also, to AstraVlad, you cant disembark if you move 12". You can only disembark if you move 6".

Yes, you are right . But 12'' is also a big deal.