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So im pretty new to the game, iva had a demo in and one full blown game now. I love the way it plays and how fast the games are. My only huge problem is well i cant seem to fall in love with it. I really do not know much about the fluff of the game. I hardly know about Cygnar which i play, Im also not a huge fan of the models for Cygnar but i like how they play and the whole lightning thing is cool. I feel like im forcing myself to love the game so i can pull away more from the wallet sucking game known as 40k. Has any one else gone through this? Is it that im just not ready to leave 40k? I really like the Kahodor models (who doesnt) but 3/4 off my FLGS plays them. Ive also flew through painting my Cygnar army to a pretty good standard and still nothing. Any one have any tips to help me dive a little deeper in the game? I love the fluff and setting/grim dark feeling of 40k Warmachine just comes off to steampunk/anime bright and fun. IDK id like some help please!

Eh, not everything can be for everyone. I personally don't see trench warfare and the like as 'bright and fun,' but to each their own. Honestly, I have sort of the opposite feeling in regard to 40k- it always felt like an episode of Metalocalypse to me. Way too over-the-top to be anything but cartoony. That this is a bit more 'down-to-earth' made it feel a little grittier.

My suggestion would be to go with what faction you like the most, tis the same for any game.

But I also suggest reading the fluff more, the Iron Kingdoms are anything but 'bright and fun'.

Yea i think its do to me not knowing enough about the fluff. I want to get into the game more and get a good grasp of the world of warmachine. Can any one suggest a read that expands on the world and fluff as a whole not just one faction. I really have no idea how wars are fought nothing i just jumped into it.


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 BoardroomHero wrote:
Eh, not everything can be for everyone. I personally don't see trench warfare and the like as 'bright and fun,' but to each their own. Honestly, I have sort of the opposite feeling in regard to 40k- it always felt like an episode of Metalocalypse to me. Way too over-the-top to be anything but cartoony. That this is a bit more 'down-to-earth' made it feel a little grittier.

Im going off of the art work when i say "Bright and fun". Again i need to read more and dive a little deeper into it. Im just not to sure where to start. I didnt know there was trench warfare that sounds good and opens my view of things a little more. Is there any reason why most games are played in a forest setting instead of a destroyed city?

Cygnar likes to pretend to be good, but it's got more skeletons in it's closet than a fair sized graveyard. King Leto's betrayal of the Trollbloods (dishonouring a treaty that was supposed to give them a home), concentration camps for Menites, Menites used as human shields on the walls of Caspia, a secret police that does some pretty dodgy things (blackmailing Caine into being their assassin for domestic threats), the list goes on. It isn't all sunshine and puppy dogs.

 SheSpits wrote:
Yea i think its do to me not knowing enough about the fluff. I want to get into the game more and get a good grasp of the world of warmachine. Can any one suggest a read that expands on the world and fluff as a whole not just one faction. I really have no idea how wars are fought nothing i just jumped into it.

The main rulebook, Prime, would be a good place.

There is also the Iron Kingdoms roleplay stuff, both d20 and the new IKRPG, which goes deeper.

You have giant steam-powered robots fighting. And they shoot lightning.

I already love steampunk, but part of Warmachine's fluff that does it for me is the characters. There's Nemo, who's like the Steve Jobs/Nikolai Tesla of the Iron Kingdoms. Haley and Deneghra, separated at birth who are locked in constant conflict. Eiryess has a whole arc working as a spy/mercenary on the human factions before returning to assist retribution. (It's also worth adding that having a number of prominent female characters is refreshing...)

It's worth picking a caster for thematic reasons if immersion in the fluff is important to you. I picked up Trollbloods partly for Doomshaper, because he's like troll Magneto. (And is supposed to be a good beast caster, which is I wanted.)

Warmachine also has a political universe (as opposed to the grim darkness of the future, where there is only war.) Cygnar's King Vintner was deposed, rolled town to the other side of the world, convinced the Skorne he was a reincarnated ancestor, and then led them back to take back the Cygnarian throne. Reading the Prime book, it's easy to see that different factions have very different takes on similar events.

You could also look into another faction--some of the gothic influences in Menoth are more in line with 40k aesthetically.

And let us not forget the metaphysical threat of Asphyxious's lust for power and the tangible threat of Toruk and his desire for dominion presented by Cryx. Every setting needs its own looming evil, after all.

The faction books are a great place to pick up some fluff. That is the primary reason for getting them as all models come with their cards and the faction deck is pretty cheap.

I'd recommend getting the Cygnar faction book and reading some of it. then reading what other factions say about the same events. It can put a dark twist on things.

Thanks for all the great replys every one! Im going to head down to mt LGS after work and pick up the Cygnar faction book. I had no idea the fluff was so good. Cygnar's King Vintner was deposed, rolled town to the other side of the world, convinced the Skorne he was a reincarnated ancestor, and then led them back to take back the Cygnarian throne. <-------This right here is awsome stuff!!

 SheSpits wrote:
Thanks for all the great replys every one! Im going to head down to mt LGS after work and pick up the Cygnar faction book. I had no idea the fluff was so good. Cygnar's King Vintner was deposed, rolled town to the other side of the world, convinced the Skorne he was a reincarnated ancestor, and then led them back to take back the Cygnarian throne. <-------This right here is awsome stuff!!

It should probably be noted that most of that is in the Skorne fluff, as I don't think Cygnar ever figured it out before Vintner was deposed /again/. He was doing his best to bleed the Skorne empire, so once he managed to take the Cygnar throne back, he would be able to turn around and kill all the Skorne. They weren't super appreciative of that plan.

Also, when we say he "convinced" them he was an Ancestor, we really mean he facerolled all their armies by himself till they surrendered.

Of course this begs the question of "If he is so stinking powerful, how did he get deposed in the first place?"

I think you can also just enjoy the game for the game, and the world of 40k for the world.

I made the switch about a year ago, and I still don't find myself loving the Iron Kingdoms. It's neat, but not nearly as fascinating as I found the 40k universe.

Doens't change the fact that the game is a ton of fun for me.

How long does an average game of warmachine take? With whatever the average size armies are.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Also, when we say he "convinced" them he was an Ancestor, we really mean he facerolled all their armies by himself till they surrendered.

Of course this begs the question of "If he is so stinking powerful, how did he get deposed in the first place?"

Leto cheated in their duel via the direct intervention of Morrow. It's one of the reasons Vinter is currently in negotiations with Feora and promising to make the Church of Menoth the official religion of Cygnar.

Also, he didn't personally faceroll most of the Skorne empire. After the first few small groups of Skorne, he started collecting an army of his own. Also note that Vinter is in possession of some of the most powerful non-mechanika artifacts in the world, which his Inquisition returned to him when they busted him out of prison.


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 Ouze wrote:
How long does an average game of warmachine take? With whatever the average size armies are.

Once you know the rules? Usually an hour to two hours. Steamroller rounds are set to a base of 70 minutes at 35 points, and 100 minutes at 50 points, so that should give you a rough idea of what well versed players should be aiming for.

 Ouze wrote:
How long does an average game of warmachine take? With whatever the average size armies are.

Casually or in a tournament?

Standards for both are 35 or 50 points, which is very roughly equivilent to 1500 and 2000 points, respectively. In a tournament, a 50pt game should fit neatly in about 90 minuntes or so. Casual games at that level should only take two hours or so, although many can end much, much faster.

WM/H games tend to have win conditions, not turn limits.

 Polonius wrote:
I think you can also just enjoy the game for the game, and the world of 40k for the world.

I made the switch about a year ago, and I still don't find myself loving the Iron Kingdoms. It's neat, but not nearly as fascinating as I found the 40k universe.

Doens't change the fact that the game is a ton of fun for me.

I agree somewhat, It’s hard to enjoy a game when you hardly understand the fluff. That kind of spills over into the models fluff/designee like the piper. It’s a goofy looking mini that looks out of place (I started the game on the note of everything has a place so buy what you think looks cool). But I’m sure it goes hand in hand with the fluff of the game. So if I built a list that would benefit from him I wouldn’t buy it. I do not understand why he looks the way he does, its sculpt to me looks out of place and I couldn’t push to buy something I didn’t like. Because I op-out of buying it now my list lost whatever little advantage I could gain from and possibly effecting the "fun factor" of the game for me. So to better understand/like/motivate me to buy I would like to know more about the world of warmachine to better comprehend the game or "hobbit playing the bag pipes" <--joke. I hope I make since none the less great advice!

I agree with you on rhupy, I use Brin Milo's model for him personally.

 motyak wrote:
I agree with you on rhupy, I use Brin Milo's model for him personally.

Any pics or should i just googel Brin Milo lol?

 SheSpits wrote:


I agree somewhat, It’s hard to enjoy a game when you hardly understand the fluff. That kind of spills over into the models fluff/designee like the piper. It’s a goofy looking mini that looks out of place (I started the game on the note of everything has a place so buy what you think looks cool). But I’m sure it goes hand in hand with the fluff of the game. So if I built a list that would benefit from him I wouldn’t buy it. I do not understand why he looks the way he does, its sculpt to me looks out of place and I couldn’t push to buy something I didn’t like. Because I op-out of buying it now my list lost whatever little advantage I could gain from and possibly effecting the "fun factor" of the game for me. So to better understand/like/motivate me to buy I would like to know more about the world of warmachine to better comprehend the game or "hobbit playing the bag pipes" <--joke. I hope I make since none the less great advice!

This actually comes up quite a lot.

First up, with regard to the issue of the look of the models - bear in mind it is a lot less "these models are terrible" and a lot more "these models are designed with an entirely different aesthetic to what im used to". When i first looked at jacks, i didnt get them, and didnt see the point, but once you get into the game a bit, and get used to the aesthetics, you start to get the feel of them, and you start to enjoy them. Remember, GW is not "the standard", and a lot of your issues with regard to the looks of the models will stem (even unconsciously) from this "understanding" that this [ie GW] is how models are done, and how models look. and its not the case. GW have their style, PP have theirs. Once you get to understanding this, you will start to like the look of the models more.

With regard to the fluff - you have to remember its a different game. the first thing that gets 40k players is the scale. forget hundreds of planets burning, with billions dying in a day. the invasion of llael in the most recent fluff (ie up to the end of mk1) cost 20,000 lives amongst all the factions involved. Tone down your scale - we are not dealing with a galaxy - we are dealing with a landmass the size of western europe (cygnar is about the size of france). The second thing to realise is the fluff is actually excellent. its less "grimdark" than 40k (although id argue since grey knights in particular, 40k has gone from grimdark to grimderp) and a lot more "gritty".

If you are looking for fluff - i'd highly recommend the forces of... books for the factions, and the subsequent anthologies. each gives a window into the world, into the faction leaders, their troops, warbeasts and jacks, their logistics and history, and their motivations. Some factiion books shed light on other factions, and you get to see the complex web of conflicts and alliances between all the various characters. for example, the skorne books details the other side of what happened to vinter. the books also come with a cracking good story too that progresses the storyline. Now dont go into it expecting high literary fiction. Its supremely enjoyable, but it is kind of an 'arcade' setting, instead of 'campaign mode'. Now this is the start. And only that.

you know the way 40k fans always dismiss PPs fluff because 40k has been there forever? With loads of books and fluff in loads of locations. well, fair enough - it has. But warmachine evolved from an older DnD3.5 RPG called 'the witchfire trilogy' that is itself over ten years old, and we have had fluff and various expansions. So yeah, warmachine can stake its claim for being around for quite a while too. And especially with the older material, there are reams of excellent fluff available. i would heartily recommend chasing down the old d20 books (either the paper ones, or pdfs on the internet - they're not hard to find.) you've got full metal fantasy, lock and load, monsternomicons 1 and 2, five fingers: port of deceit, liber mechanica the the jewel that is the epic "world guide" - 400 pages alone of history with a depth, breadth, character and grittiness that brings the iron kingdoms to life in a way you could never hope to imagine in 40k. you can literally smell the smoke when you read these books. believe me, when i first got into warmachine, i was hesitant about the fluff, but when i got serious about the game, and i chased down these books and started to read them, i genuinely lost my heart and soul to the iron kingdoms (a warpwolf got it) the fluff is genuinely brilliant. you have thousands of years of history, great heroes, desicable villains, tragic losers, betrayals, victories and losses. you have a world that is tearing at the seams with grit, and character.

THere are other sources too. check out PPs magazine - No Quarter which frequently presents the gavin kyle files, and guts and ears which cover quite a few pages each, and cover everything from various characters (warcasters and warlocks typically, but frequently, any named character can appear), various unit types (doom reavers and iron fangs recently), various factions in the fluff (eg the tharn). PP have also released the Skull Island Expeditions (SIX) which are PDF based e-books for you, if you want to read novels set in the iron kingdoms. i would highly recommend the ones about the Butcher (title escapes me atm...) and Makeda (Instruments of War). Lastly, but not least, with regard to the RPG, PP have re-released the RPG using their own system - its the Iron Kingdoms RPG (IKRPG) for short. So far we have the main book which is an excellent overall view of things and 'urban adventures' which focuses on the cities of the kingdoms (especially five fingers). Soon will be the book titled 'kingdoms, nations and gods', and a fourth book set in the wilderness. by all acounts the third book is epic, and i cant wait to pick it up for the fluff alone.

i heartily recommend the fluff side of the iron kingdoms. they're awesome.

Thank you deadknight for the detailed information you provided. I will most definitely look into tracking down some of the older books. I think while I’m at my LGS ill also pick up an issue of No Quarter. The world guide will be first on my list, sounds like what I’m looking for.

Army books. I have bought all but a few and have borrowed those of my friends.

After that the expansion books carry on the storylines. That is one thing I never got in 40K. The world advances and changes and so do the people in it.

 SheSpits wrote:

 motyak wrote:
I agree with you on rhupy, I use Brin Milo's model for him personally.

Any pics or should i just googel Brin Milo lol?

Sorry, its a GW model from the gaunts ghosts imperial guard box, the one with the bagpipes. I just stuck him on a small WM/H base, and my opponents are fine with it, as is the local TO (despite the fact that it is nowhere near steamroller standards)

Personally, I always wanted to put some smoke coming out of the top of Rhuperts pipes, and plaster peace signs on him. He does look a bit like a hippy, so perhaps his music isn't the only thing inspiring the troops By the way, the history of the Iron Kingdoms in PRIME MK2 (from p.14) is actually written from the perspective of Rhupert, so if you want to know what he's about, give that a read through.

As for the D&D books (Witchfire Cronicles in particular), they are interesting but there's two big points on that. Firstly, they are RPG Adventure books, meant for DMs to craft an adventure. While they do have some interesting things in them, they are not set out for just reading, but rather give possible paths for an RPG group to go down.

Secondly, the witchfire books were written as D&D 3.5 modules back in 2001, so the writers had to conform to a bunch of D&D tropes on things (Such as how magic works) rather than just create their own world. They've actually mentioned a couple of times that they were never fully happy with the D&D3.5 stuff they wrote, because it could never fully conform to their view of the world, so a fair bit has been Retconned (not the basics of the stories, but the organization and mechanics of the world).

The old World Guide might be helpful to you in explaining the settings, though it doesn't cover the storyline so much IIRC. There's also the new "Kings Nations and Gods" book for their new Iron Kingdoms RPG that was just released this week, which might also be good.

 Ouze wrote:
How long does an average game of warmachine take? With whatever the average size armies are.

50 point games can be done in 1.5 to 2 hours. Standard Deathclock time is usually around 60 minutes, per player, depending on alterations from that particular tournament. One place I've played at several times only gives you 50 minutes each and its plenty.

For reference, Deathclock means each player gets a clock that counts down from a set amount of time. While its your turn it is counting down. If you run out of time you automatically lose. The game ends when a player wins or runs out of time. There are specially made clocks that keep track of both times and when your turn is done you press the button and the opponent's time begins.

So a competitive game can go pretty quickly if everyone is reasonably familiar with the rules. 15 point games can last as little as 20 minutes.

Personally, I'm having a ton of fun with the game mechanics, but that might be due to the fact that its still shiny and new to me. I've tried to get into the game's fluff, but I'm finding it difficult. So far, I've read the stories from both the Trollbloods and LoE books, and to be honest, they're lacking. While the characters are cool, and the world that they inhabit has promise, I just don't think that the stories within do them justice. They kind of remind me of a narrative version of a battle report. Its almost like the authors try too hard to incorporate unit types, abilities, and the like.

40k has its problems too, especially their earlier works, but some of them go a long ways via everyday drudgery (the Gaunts Ghosts books come to mind). Warmachine just seems like its full of cliche one-liners, and maybe too much action. I understand why the stories are like this...and its not really fair to compare them to 40k...but its still hard to get emotionally invested.

Apparently the novella they did a month or two back about the Butcher (the Khadoran warcaster) is really good. This is in part due to not trying to force units in apparenlty, but instead try to work on the character and how he thinks nad operates. Less emphasis on the fightin' and more on the character losing his damned mind.

And stuff.

Larry Correia's work is also excellent. Instruments of War is a great look into Skorne culture and Makeda's brain, and the upcoming In Thunder Forged will be a look into the Storm Knights. That, and Correia hasn't written a bad book ever.

Werewalrus wrote:
Personally, I'm having a ton of fun with the game mechanics, but that might be due to the fact that its still shiny and new to me. I've tried to get into the game's fluff, but I'm finding it difficult. So far, I've read the stories from both the Trollbloods and LoE books, and to be honest, they're lacking. While the characters are cool, and the world that they inhabit has promise, I just don't think that the stories within do them justice. They kind of remind me of a narrative version of a battle report. Its almost like the authors try too hard to incorporate unit types, abilities, and the like.

40k has its problems too, especially their earlier works, but some of them go a long ways via everyday drudgery (the Gaunts Ghosts books come to mind). Warmachine just seems like its full of cliche one-liners, and maybe too much action. I understand why the stories are like this...and its not really fair to compare them to 40k...but its still hard to get emotionally invested.

describing it as a 'narrative battle report' is rather apt. its what left me feeling hesitant about the fluff. after all, 40k had forgeworld, codices, index astartes, index xenos, black library etc etc.

Hence the statement that its a 'start'. its 'fun'. But if you want all the nitty gritty, check out no quarter, and the rpg material.

Maddermax wrote:
as for the D&D books (Witchfire Cronicles in particular), they are interesting but there's two big points on that. Firstly, they are RPG Adventure books, meant for DMs to craft an adventure. While they do have some interesting things in them, they are not set out for just reading, but rather give possible paths for an RPG group to go down.

Secondly, the witchfire books were written as D&D 3.5 modules back in 2001, so the writers had to conform to a bunch of D&D tropes on things (Such as how magic works) rather than just create their own world. They've actually mentioned a couple of times that they were never fully happy with the D&D3.5 stuff they wrote, because it could never fully conform to their view of the world, so a fair bit has been Retconned (not the basics of the stories, but the organization and mechanics of the world).

The old World Guide might be helpful to you in explaining the settings, though it doesn't cover the storyline so much IIRC. There's also the new "Kings Nations and Gods" book for their new Iron Kingdoms RPG that was just released this week, which might also be good.

hmm, i have to disagree with you here a bit maddermax. the witchfire trilogy is obviously an RPG adventure. its got bits of fluff in it, but primarily, as you say, its more designed as an open path for an rpg froup. Also, you are correct in that PP were not happy with them having to conform to the 3.5 engine, as it didnt really fit the world/mechanics they had in mind.

However, you are partially wrong when you say the world guide doesnt cover the history-but im only nitpicking. it covers a lot of the ancient history quite well, i thought. Ichtier, the warlord era,the thousand cities era, the occupation era, the rebellion era, and the modern era. With regard to other aspects of the setting though, it is excellent in describing the setting - everything from the individual provinces, notable cities and famous individuals therin, to currency, crime and punishment, entertainment etc. its set a few years behind the current story arc however, so vinters flight, the conquest of the skorne, the rise of everblight etc will be better covered in the forces of... books (the nitty gritty part, rather than the battle report/story thing)-however it does mention them, albeit in a more open ended 'this mysterious thing is happening' and definately as a hook for rpgs - the forces of... books fill in the blanks rather well. other books (full metal fantasy etc) describe the various mythologies of the races as well - i loved the description of how the drawrves believed they came about.

I never needed fluff to get into the game. All fluff is just about the same thing, you have several parties who all fight each other more or less, some for control and other for survival. Each battle is always fought intensely against bitter enemies to the last man blah blah blah.

Primarily I appreciate different design styles for each army and different type of abilities.

So it could be fun to explore some fluff also, but not because the game isn't fun enough in itself.