Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Challenge: make an army using at least 3 of the following bad units:
Warp Talons- in here for lack of flexibility in use with their lclaws, stupid deepstrike rule that has you risking the entire squad to blind one unit, and high price
possessed- When i look at possessed i think id almost take them if they were scoring, if there was a way to deliver them or if this edition didnt laugh at cc.
chosen
Mutilators- special mention of badness
Defilers- to weak, to expensive, gw wanted people to buy their forgefiends so they made defi bad.
Landraiders- ...
dark apostle- cultists are gonna die if you shoot em- fearless or not. Hes just a bad lord (i5 is the greatest thing since graters)
warpsmith- y so boring?
ahriman- do you even lift?
bezerkers- see above
1ksons- to cool for gw to make good rules for.
Regular csm- ty masquerade81
For every 2 bads you can add in 1 other choice from the codex. Vanilla csm troops can be used to make foc.

Why is a lr on the bad list?

2k
Warpsmith mok AoBF
DApostle

20 csm MoS IoE 2xplasguns psword combi plas
20 csm mok iow +ccwep psword combi melta

2x heldrakes blaeflamer
3x helbrutes plasma cannons
3x defilers

Havent done the points to be honest was just thinking out aloud...

A few are bad, the rest you just need to learn to use.

 grendel083 wrote:
A few are bad, the rest you just need to learn to use.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Land Raiders are experiencing a revival at the moment. At the end of 5e everyone had just enough melta or the equivalent to deal with av14 and that big investment was half destroyed and the other half slowly walking towards the enemy with gritted but soon to be evaporated teeth. With the meta shifting to str7-8 spam because AV isnt so hard to crack with HPs in 6e (and other junk) there was a niche in competitive play for av14 to make its glorious return and people have been caught of guard. This wont stay for long: its to easy to make the small change to be able to deal with the av14 again.

Land raiders are to expensive just for their role as a heavy support platform. I dont think anyone disagrees so far. If your sitting it at home shooting all game i dont think its worth it even if you have a 5 man csm inside to jump out turn 5 and score.

But thats not their only role right? they deliver troops too! Well yeh but what are you gonna deliver ? CC specialists: Abby and some chosen? Kharn and some zerkers or csm mok? Aby, typhus and 3 MoNmutilators (Ah! 14 teq t5 wounds: could be fun)? These look great fun- assault vehicle gogo! If cc is your thing then your problem is 2fold. 1- they see it coming: you have a list with a land raider full of cc your spending at least 600+ points on that one trick. Its obvious- your opponent wont be surprised. Hes gonna prolly try and go second, and deploy as far away from your LR as he can. Then hes gonna come up with a strategy to deal with your LR. They counter that (600+) in a 2k game and youve taken a massive loss- youve basically gotta do 600+ points to break even and then some more to take an advantage. Unfortunately the counter is generally as easy as a screen of your cheapest unit to cop the charge and lose quickly to give you a full round of shooting to get 10 meq wounds through or a few teq. Alternativly you can stop the LR early if you have the specific firepower OR simply avoid it altogether. Its to big a gamble for me. 2- CSM mobility has huge issues keeping up with a land raiders charge- your spawn, bikes, raptors, deepstrikers, another landraider (another 600+ points)! vindicators, (huron infiltrate!). What worked pretty well in 5e was the rhino support but thats basically gone now. With these other options i find myself short on foc or in other important areas.

A LR does put a cat among the pigeons and take the initiative away from your opponent. It can be good if your opponent has taken a particularly greedy list of small- med arms. The thing is that even before deployment your opponent knows EXACTLY what you are going to do with your Landraider when he sees your list. Its a huge investment and a tactical player can counter it pretty efficiently. I havent seen a csm land raider do any good work in a batrep or game in 6e (big claim!!). Im sure the games are out there but still...

I find CD allies do make a pretty solid support with good synergy for the LR- hounds/seekers/mcs.

Im not saying it doesnt work (its actually a fair price for what you get av14 assault LCs+HB) but it doesnt synergise well and hard to make into a competetive list. Its prolly on the border of ok/bad but i thought id include it to encourage discussion + thinking.

Why are regular CSM not on the bad list? The worst troop choise in the book by far!

Fixed.

Check my Sig. Berzerkers work. As does a lot on your list, actually.

Well... as does everything, really. There's nothing in the codex you can't include two of and still have a decent list.

Your zerker lists are fantastic and have changed the way i think about zerkers. The BIG blob squads that doing give up 1st blood + a huron ifltrate... I wonder if there are other ways to get em on the table successfully.

Id love to see a list that could make me change my mind about 1ksons or mutilators. I dont see how (shooty)chosen work in 6e with such paper thin rhinos...

Ask about a particular unit and ill defend it. If you wanted my terrible list itd look a lot smaller. There are plenty of bad-oks in that list.

Why aren't Cultists on the bad list?

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Why aren't Cultists on the bad list?

Because they do exactly what they're meant to do.
A cheap mass of bodies.

I'm not disagreeing. But let's face it, cultists die when you shoot them. So yeah, their 'good' quality is that they're a mass of cheap bodies in just the same way that berserkers are a mass of screaming Bolt Pistols and chain blades.

Frankly, you could make the same argument about a lot of the stuff on the "bad" list. They each do what they're meant to do - it's just that the OP either wants them to do more than that, or is unsatisfied with how well they do it.

e.g. -

Berzerkers are meant to be good in close combat. They are.
Land Raiders are meant to be nearly indestructible transports. They are.
CSM are meant to be ... well space marines. They're pretty much the same as tactical marines.

This doesn't make them "bad" units, it just makes them less versatile.

It seems to me that the OP is saying these units are "bad" because either they don't do what he wants them to do, or else hasn't figured out how to make them do it.

Yeah, pretty much.

That seems to be a common thing with the CSM codex these days. Lots of expensive units with lots of special rules that people can't figure out how to use, so they just dismiss them as overcosted and bad.

Ahriman@230
20 possessed, MoS, IoE, @615
or MoT for@ 620 and ahriman can join

20 thousand sons, meltabomband force sword@ 500
10 csm, 2 meltaguns, trade bolted for ccw, rhino, dc@200
10 csm, 2 meltaguns, trade bolted for ccw, rhino, dc@200
Total=1745
Always infiltrate possessed. Thousand sons next if possible or foot slog them . Outflank a rhino with csm third.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
I'm not disagreeing. But let's face it, cultists die when you shoot them. So yeah, their 'good' quality is that they're a mass of cheap bodies in just the same way that berserkers are a mass of screaming Bolt Pistols and chain blades.

Frankly, you could make the same argument about a lot of the stuff on the "bad" list. They each do what they're meant to do - it's just that the OP either wants them to do more than that, or is unsatisfied with how well they do it.

e.g. -

Berzerkers are meant to be good in close combat. They are.
Land Raiders are meant to be nearly indestructible transports. They are.
CSM are meant to be ... well space marines. They're pretty much the same as tactical marines.

This doesn't make them "bad" units, it just makes them less versatile.

It seems to me that the OP is saying these units are "bad" because either they don't do what he wants them to do, or else hasn't figured out how to make them do it.

This is just so far off base.

1. Bezerkers are meant to be good in close combat, but they can't get there without a land raider, so that squad is automatically 500+ points.
2. Land raiders are meant to be nearly indestructible transports. They are not. I have personally popped 2 in the same turn one. This is not an unusually occurance.
3. CSM are meant to be space marines, but they don't have the number one thing that makes space marines good, ATSKNF. If CSM has some sort of leadership ability, such as stuborn, then maybe MAYBE I'd start taking them regularly.
4. Chaos has a bad choice in troops all around (without marks). Cultists offer up a cheap way to fulfill the need. a 20+ man blob is not as easy to get rid of as you might think. Because I don't run cult armies, i exclusively use cultists and ever since i switched I have won a crap ton more, including turn 3 tables.
5. The OP is pretty spot on with the bad units. They might do what they do well, but there is something missing from them that makes paying for them not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't have my dex in front of me. I'm at work, but my list would look something like.

I'll try to do something no one else posted, no TKsons for me.

warpsmith - murder sword, MoK. 7 attacks on charge, maybe that's useful....
He's with:
9 zerkers with a PS
They're in:
land raider (obviously)

10 more zerkers in a land raider.

10 warp talons w/ MoT (i've been wanting to try this)
With:
Tzeentch harold, 20 pink horrors, harold with grimoire to give warp talons 2++ (can he have it? again withthe lack of codex in front of me. if not then i'll take a greater daemon for it)

2x helldrakes (cuz 2 helldrakes can make any bad list ok)
2x maulerfiends (to run with the LRs and assault first taking the overwatch hits hopfully)

that's 2kish right? Codex so far :(

 Filch wrote:
Ahriman@230
20 possessed, MoS, IoE, @615
or MoT for@ 620 and ahriman can join

20 thousand sons, meltabomband force sword@ 500
10 csm, 2 meltaguns, trade bolted for ccw, rhino, dc@200
10 csm, 2 meltaguns, trade bolted for ccw, rhino, dc@200
Total=1745
Always infiltrate possessed. Thousand sons next if possible or foot slog them . Outflank a rhino with csm third.

Any chance of dropping one rhino and a few bodies here and there to make room for a herald with a grimoire to hit the possessed? (ahriman joins + mot for a 2++!)

Outflanking rhinos with meltas is so 5e chosen- A+

Sothas:

I love the maxed out warptalon/ possessed MoT with a grimoire lists. Id throw a winged mot lord with a ltclaw and pf to get the most out of it. Actually.. with Ahrimans infiltrate this could be such a badass list and with the fact infiltrate and their mobility the grimoire is gonna have its chances to screw up limited. To make it even better, when it does screw up they still have their usual armour save... Most lists will have a bad time with this and it isnt gonna bleed many wounds from shooting in between assaults...

Tbh i dont like zerkers in LRs just cos they have to do SO much damage to get their points back. The lists i have seen them work in arent the old 5e LR/rhino charge but a big 20 man blob getting an infiltrate via huron/ahriman- theres prolly other unorthodox ways of delivering them that i cant think of atm- id love to hear anyones thoughts on that (forgeworld dreadclaws ect...). That said the warpsmith MoK with a aobf makes me smile hes like ws3, i4 and swings like a beast... but really youd ditch the melta/flamer and take a lord in competitive play. If i was gonna use a murder sword id really want the initiative 5 of the lord too.

A Dark Apostle and 30 Cultists with CCW are a horrifying force to contend with. Just throwing that out there.

Also, I want to address this misplaced hatred of Thousand Sons and Warp Talons. Sure Warp Talons are tough to use well if you Deep Strike them, but if you have them on the table from the start, god help anything they charge on turn two. As for Thousand Sons, I don't see how a squad of Tactical Marines with a mandatory psyker, AP3 bolters, and 4++ for everyone can be bad. They may be a little pricey, but that's the only flaw I can really think of for our good old dust bunnies.

1k Sons make excellent jailbait because people generally know of their awesome ability to soak up fire, so they will pump expensive firepower into them.

I've actually had great luck with 1k Sons lately, you just need to play them so they don't get stuck alone in front of a huge line of guardsmen. It really just takes strategy to make proper use of most of the 'bad choices'

Except for possessed and warp talons
Just no

Also, Ailaros, those games with zerkers are amazing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I take that back, there are alot of really bad choices I'm just being picky

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Frankly, you could make the same argument about a lot of the stuff on the "bad" list. They each do what they're meant to do - it's just that the OP either wants them to do more than that, or is unsatisfied with how well they do it.

This doesn't make them "bad" units, it just makes them less versatile.

It seems to me that the OP is saying these units are "bad" because either they don't do what he wants them to do, or else hasn't figured out how to make them do it.

Ive made a controversial list to encourage discussion on the use of models that are generally seen as difficult to use and are not prevalent in current competitive csm lists.

Ive included the choices in my bad list because imo they dont do what they're meant to. Pick one and we can discuss it. Ive already had a crack at writing down my thoughts on LR above and if you think anything doesnt make sense or isnt fair there let me know but i cant make an intelligent response to "It seems to me that the OP is saying these units are "bad" because either they don't do what he wants them to do, or else hasn't figured out how to make them do it."

Now with bezerkers: designed to be the cc specialists of csm cult/troop.
-Furious charge, ws 5, MoK (rage and counter). For 21 points they are fairly priced for a meq that has some good ability to chop in cc if you compare them to say an assault marine. To have their cc abilities realised they require the charge to activate their attacks and their FC.

-Zerkers ability to get this important (essential?) charge is limited highly by their mobility: changes 6e with increased importance on first blood and changes to av make the rhino a very flimsy transport with reduced delivery synergy for a troop like bezerkers.

-There are other options left for creating mobility for Zerkers such as Land raiders, footslog, infiltrate (huron), and setting up ccs with other units (sacrifice another unit to get the good charge a turn later). And ways to use a zerker at home without mobility being such an issue: defending drops/deepstrike, outflanks...

But really... compare a bezerker to a plague marine who will outperform a zerker in most ccs against a wider variety of cc opponents through his enhanced survivability and plague knife. They are also less reliant on mobility as they have an enhanced durability, they are also less reliant on the charge. You might say that the zerker simply has a new role but when it doesnt compete in its own neiche and its ability to perform is undermined by an aspect of the game (in this case mobility and the charge mechanic) I see it as both inflexible and not meeting its design function. When a PM does cc better a zerker doesnt do what they are meant to do.

All that said: the Ailaros battle reports with huron infiltrating maxxed blobs of zerkers with a punchie lord are fantastic and have made me look at the zerker in a new light... and thats what this thread was for.

Some kind of goofy Monster Mash list might actually be somewhat competitive even though it uses some lame units. At 1,850 points:

Fast Attack

Heldrake w/ Baleflamer: 170
Heldrake w/ Baleflamer: 170
Heldrake w/ Baleflamer: 170

Elites

Helbrute: 105
Helbrute: 105

Heavy Support

Defiler: 195
Defiler: 195
Defiler: 195

HQ

DP w/ Wings and Power Armor: 205
DP w Wings and Power Armor: 205

Troops

14 Cultists: 66
14 Cultists: 66

Id cut a drake for another helbrute. Ive found heldrakes have a diminishing return with more than 2. Id also think about making room for a dp with a black mace.

Ithani wrote:
Id cut a drake for another helbrute. Ive found heldrakes have a diminishing return with more than 2. Id also think about making room for a dp with a black mace.

Obviously you've never ran 4.

At 1850:

HQ - 265 - Abaddon

EL - 105 - Hellbrute

EL - 105 - Hellbrute

TR - 150 - 5 Chosen
- 4 Plasma Guns

TR - 150 - 5 Chosen
- 4 Plasma Guns

TR - 150 - 5 Chosen
- 4 Plasma Guns

TR - 150 - 5 Chosen
- 4 Plasma Guns

TR - 150 - 5 Chosen
- 4 Plasma Guns

TR - 150 - 5 Chosen
- 4 Plasma Guns

FA - 180 - Helldrake
- Bale Flamer

FA - 180 - Helldrake
- Bale Flamer

HS - 115 - 5 Havocs
- 4 Autocannons

fabius + CSM of slaanesh = S5 I5 marines. if that's not good, i don't know what is. its cost effective, its a troop, and its durable. heck, you could even throw them in a land raider grab a blob of cultists (nurgle work best w/ T4) for about 1000 points, maybe even 750. CSM aren't bad if you use them properly, and cultists are some of my personal favorite troops in the game right now. possessed of nurgle aren't too bad either, though with so much other competition in the elite slot, it is easy to dismiss them as a "bad" unit. it really just depends on if you have your CC squad(s) already. and finally, zerkers in a max squad, although expensive, can be frightning with proper tactics and protection.

that being said, 40k is a game of tactical supremacy, which means that if your army does not perform synergistically, and focuses more on those few "OP bomb squads", more than likely you will lose to a more unified strategy. all in all, it is hard to say that any one unit is wholly good or bad because it depends on the other support around them. but i will still agree with you that mutilators are probably the least effective unit in the codex

P.S. - heldrakes take the fun out of 40k. avoid running them at all costs!