Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So can someone please explain to me the role that terminators play on the board at 1500 points level? They seem to literally just be a bullet magnet.

So they can hump it up the field on foot, and more than likely die by massed fire.

They can take a landraider, but that is incredibly expensive and in my opinion not worth the points.

They can deep strike and be shot to pieces before they can do anything of any worth.

Am i missing something? Or are they just not viable at this points level? |I could be completely wrong I just don't see it...

As a GK player, i love my termies. I like to keep them in 10 man squads and use them to dominate midfield or sweep a flank. As Paladins i take them in 5 man squads and do the same thing. If you want your termies to be shooty, load up on heavy weapons: being Relentless is fantastic. If you want them to assault, gotta DS or use a LR, or Chimera i guess. They tend to get shot at a lot because theyre big scary Termies. Thats what the 2+ is for. If they are being shot at, that means something else is not; maneuver your forces accordingly.

Terminators are concentrated space marines. The cost twice as much, but last twice as long against small arms fire (and put out twice as much at long range), and the same length against Ap2 out in the open for twice the price. But, of course, it's not quite twice as good against plasma in the open (what with only being a 5++), and it's a little more than twice as expensive. But for that gap, you get to deepstrike and you get a powerfist.

So, what do you do with something that's basically concentrated space marines that are better in close combat? You pick on things weaker than them, preferably in rather strategic locations.

The idea that they're nothing more that bullet magnets, and that they're not survivable enough comes from people overestimating what they're capable of in the first place.

I love Terminators, they are among my favorite models. Unfortunately they seem to just be bullet magnets, like you said. Mine usually die so early in the game I rarely get to do anything with them :( I have tried running them down the field, sitting in the back and being all shooty, and deep striking. I have yet to try them in a Land Raider though so I'm probably missing out on their full potential.I'll get a Land Raider soon though and try it out

You got it right the first time OP, bullet magnet. There's a good reason why you don't see them in competitive lists anymore. They are paying a premium for a resilience that just doesn't hold up like it's meant to in the current edition and meta.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You got it right the first time OP, bullet magnet. There's a good reason why you don't see them in competitive lists anymore. They are paying a premium for a resilience that just doesn't hold up like it's meant to in the current edition and meta.

What changed with 6th ed that allowed more ap 2 weapons? Couldn't you take as many plasma and melta guns then as you could now?

Ok I understand that to an extent. I'm still skeptical but I might give it a shot. My issue is that my local meta is running lots of Tau. I can't think of a way I can get them near or into combat without getting shot to pieces. Either shot in a firefight or getting destroyed y massed overwatch....

stevie4568 wrote:
Ok I understand that to an extent. I'm still skeptical but I might give it a shot. My issue is that my local meta is running lots of Tau. I can't think of a way I can get them near or into combat without getting shot to pieces. Either shot in a firefight or getting destroyed y massed overwatch....

Oh man I feel your pain! I hate Tau. They are totally unbalanced and you don't have to make any tactical decisions other than where to camp for 5 turns... Back on topic though... My Termies get dunked against Tau, 2+ save is boss but it doesn't make a difference when you get shot 36 times in a turn.

Right, the rules have swung TOWARDS terminators not away from them, even if "the meta" hasn't figured it out, yet.

Terminators got the benefit of a more generous mishap table, and they got the benefit of power weapons no longer universally being Ap2 (and those that are, are now I1, which means the terminators actually get to swing). And they get the benefit of being actually good in close combat in a rules edition where not much is, so you're likely going against what your opponent expects.

And since 6th ed, we've also gotten a lot of Ap3 (or better) paired with the ignores cover special rule. Terminators just don't care about helldrakes and markerlights.

The only serious meta problem for termies is the rise of monstrous creatures. It just so happens that killing a riptide is accomplished in exactly the same way you take down terminators. Apart from that, though, they're golden.

Or, rather, as golden as they were before, but moreso. People thought terminators were bad in the past as well, mostly because they don't understand how they work. The fact that they've gotten slightly better hasn't prevented people from using them wrong, seeing them butchered, and then just dismissing them out of hand.

 Ailaros wrote:
Right, the rules have swung TOWARDS terminators not away from them, even if "the meta" hasn't figured it out, yet.

Terminators got the benefit of a more generous mishap table, and they got the benefit of power weapons no longer universally being Ap2 (and those that are, are now I1, which means the terminators actually get to swing). And they get the benefit of being actually good in close combat in a rules edition where not much is, so you're likely going against what your opponent expects.

And since 6th ed, we've also gotten a lot of Ap3 (or better) paired with the ignores cover special rule. Terminators just don't care about helldrakes and markerlights.

The only serious meta problem for termies is the rise of monstrous creatures. It just so happens that killing a riptide is accomplished in exactly the same way you take down terminators. Apart from that, though, they're golden.

Or, rather, as golden as they were before, but moreso. People thought terminators were bad in the past as well, mostly because they don't understand how they work. The fact that they've gotten slightly better hasn't prevented people from using them wrong, seeing them butchered, and then just dismissing them out of hand.

So how do I deliver them to the enemy? Deep strike is the obvious option but they are exposed to an awful lot of fire for that turn. I guess this plays into the "not knowing how to use them" aspect of your post.

This best example for this is probably DA Deathwing. Because the other marine lists don't have updated pricing. For BA, I find terminators too pricey for what the bring to the table. The real downfall of terminators is T4. T4 is mostly meaningless in 6th edition and xeno shooters lists spam wounds till they die.

Martel732 wrote:
This best example for this is probably DA Deathwing. Because the other marine lists don't have updated pricing. For BA, I find terminators too pricey for what the bring to the table. The real downfall of terminators is T4. T4 is mostly meaningless in 6th edition and xeno shooters lists spam wounds till they die.

CSM MoN Termies FTW

Deiyos wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You got it right the first time OP, bullet magnet. There's a good reason why you don't see them in competitive lists anymore. They are paying a premium for a resilience that just doesn't hold up like it's meant to in the current edition and meta.

What changed with 6th ed that allowed more ap 2 weapons? Couldn't you take as many plasma and melta guns then as you could now?

Its not SM or Imperial armies. Tau and Eldar have the capacity to bring a ton of AP2 weaponry and have the means to unload it all on you long before you have a chance to assault. Even TH/SS termies are just barely worth it now, a 3++ can only protect for so long...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Right, the rules have swung TOWARDS terminators not away from them, even if "the meta" hasn't figured it out, yet.

Terminators got the benefit of a more generous mishap table, and they got the benefit of power weapons no longer universally being Ap2 (and those that are, are now I1, which means the terminators actually get to swing). And they get the benefit of being actually good in close combat in a rules edition where not much is, so you're likely going against what your opponent expects.

And since 6th ed, we've also gotten a lot of Ap3 (or better) paired with the ignores cover special rule. Terminators just don't care about helldrakes and markerlights.

The only serious meta problem for termies is the rise of monstrous creatures. It just so happens that killing a riptide is accomplished in exactly the same way you take down terminators. Apart from that, though, they're golden.

Or, rather, as golden as they were before, but moreso. People thought terminators were bad in the past as well, mostly because they don't understand how they work. The fact that they've gotten slightly better hasn't prevented people from using them wrong, seeing them butchered, and then just dismissing them out of hand.

I take it you haven't played the current Tau or Eldar codices?

The Dark Lance (I think that's what it's called) that the Dark Elder have on their skimmers are crazy 5 s 2 ap... two of those wiped my Termi squad out in one shooting phase. I was butt hurt to say the least.

Are we talking about regular terminators or assault terminators? Losing a squad happens in this game. I think AIleros is correct about regular terminators. They are there to punk weak squads all day long. They punk them from 24" away, and keep kicking them in the nuts until they get close enough to take their lunch money.

Assault terminators are a different story I believe. They still exist to beat up on MEQ squads the like, but they also serve the purpose of anti-deathstar units. It won't work against every deathstar (the DC/Crusader unit comes to mind), but Assault Terminators were pretty much made for killing Paladin squads, Nob squads, etc.

When most people deepstrike terminators, they put them in the exact middle of everything, and then wonder why they get horribly butchered. Would you deepstrike a land raider next to a bunch of melta guns? Would you deepstrike a 30-man boyz mob next to a bunch of bolters or flamers? Then why do you think you can get away with deepstriking them in LOS of riptide interceptors, or next to a bunch of plasma guns, or right in the middle of their entire giant army?

If you use them as the support unit they're intended to be - shoring up weak parts of your line, picking off weak parts of your opponent, taking advantage of his mistakes, etc. - then your termies will play a much bigger impact, and will stop getting just instantly liquefied.

Ailaros knows what is what. People make two mistakes with their terminators. They either throw them against units that have been designed to counter them or they put them into the middle of an enemy force unsupported.

While I have not played Space Marines in a while I do recall using them to great effect in 5th edition (normal terminators -- not paladins) to roll up enemy flanks. No one expects terminators to pick on units that are weaker than them. This often puts the enemy into a difficult situation as they then have to not only find a new scoring unit, but re mobilize assets that are intended to kill the terminators. This further weakens their "line".

The only way I can really see this as having changed in 6th edition is with the advent of the aegis defense line (as it allows an army to castle behind cover in an open area). This allows the entire army to shoot to its fullest potential without leaving open flanks.

As for the prominence of AP2.. people just forget older editions. It used to be worse. Much worse.

I think people's problem is that termies do not play like their fluff seems to indicate. They are a bully unit.

Termies rarely kill their points worth but if used correctly they come down and kill that strategic unit and then contest/claim the objective for the rest of the game. If they are worth the price is so dependent on your use that they may be the most strategic unit in the game.

I personally think the chaos termies are a much better unit overall due to their access to combi-plasma/melta. This allows them to tackle more diverse units when they come down and the nurgle or tzeench upgrades can make them much more survivable.

Tac termies really have to come down somewhere out of the way. Kill something soft like devastators and then next turn kill the scouts, etc, that were holding the objective and stay dug in on it so the opponent can't get those VP.

Assault termies are a very tough unit to use in the current meta. If you use a caestus assault ram or a land raider to deliver them then they can be very effective but they get into the "deathstar" realm where they really shouldn't be. The DA dex has made it clear they they will only get more expensive; 5 man TH/SS DA 245pts vs BA 225pts or SM 200 pts. I have no idea where people get that DA have cheap termies? Either way this is a bad price for a unit that cannot contribute until turn 3. This means a counter charge use or they need to get into the thick of it turn 2. Ailros has been using them to some good effect in a MTO type list but those a chaos termies with infiltrating melee threats.

The biggest problem with Terminators is in fact their reputation. Everyone assumes that terminators will destroy everything and be immune to all fire, and thus will see no problem in a DS right next to the enemy army.

I'm still not entirely convinced as to the merits of the more expensive terminators; you want the points value to be basically 2 x whatever a normal marine would be, because then your other benefits are worth it. This is why I think Chaos Terminators and TDAWG have potential, whereas I don't feel that Deathwing Terminators are a viable option (they're more expensive than 3 DA tactical marines, with only 2x the survivability). Terminators are great when you can place them in situations where your opponent needs to direct fire at them, but doesn't have much opportunity to do so. Then your 2+ save keeps your terminators alive instead of losing models, and then your opponent's shooting has basically been nullified.

Terminators are a niche choice -- use them as Ailaros suggests, as support pieces and anchors for your piece trades. Terminators become way better the closer to the end of the game you get. The less there is remaining on each side, the more a TDA armored marine will be able to perform.

I actually think at 1500 points they would be more useful because your opponent has less stuff on the table that can kill them. Very few units have the innate ability to punch through 2+, and at a lower point value the choice between a plasma gun and another marine becomes tougher. So in that scenario, you focus on killing the stuff that can kill your termies, then let them unload small arms into them while you ignore 5/6 of it. Also, the more the merrier: If you run TWO squads instead of just one you'll find that they'll do more, and one of them should be able to get something done.
As far as general terminators tactics go, I think you want them in melee as much as possible. In melee, you will almost always get to strike thanks to 6th edition power weapon changes, and you have a far better chance of killing your enemy. That plasma-armed marine now has one attack that you have a 1/6 chance of ignoring, while you traded 2 S4 AP5 attacks for 2 S8 AP2 attacks.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I actually think at 1500 points they would be more useful because your opponent has less stuff on the table that can kill them. Very few units have the innate ability to punch through 2+, and at a lower point value the choice between a plasma gun and another marine becomes tougher. So in that scenario, you focus on killing the stuff that can kill your termies, then let them unload small arms into them while you ignore 5/6 of it. Also, the more the merrier: If you run TWO squads instead of just one you'll find that they'll do more, and one of them should be able to get something done.
As far as general terminators tactics go, I think you want them in melee as much as possible. In melee, you will almost always get to strike thanks to 6th edition power weapon changes, and you have a far better chance of killing your enemy. That plasma-armed marine now has one attack that you have a 1/6 chance of ignoring, while you traded 2 S4 AP5 attacks for 2 S8 AP2 attacks.

Are you aware that termies are the cost of 3 TAC marines with bolters. What this means is that in a fire fight between 3 TAC marines and 1 termie even at 24-12" the termies loose the firefight. Even in a melee fight the TAC will win on average. Termies really are criminally overcosted without their heavy weapons and they absolutely need to bully small expensive squads.

But that's a silly comparison. Why would the terminator get into a 12" slug-fight with tac marines? The reason you spend more points (and the reason they're elites choices in the first place) is for all those extra options you get.

In this case, the terminator deepstrikes next to the tac squad and fires its storm bolter, then the marines back up and shoot (or the two of them chase each other until the marines decide to shoot), which probably doesn't kill the terminator, at which point the terminator shoots his storm bolter again and then runs into close combat with a powerfist and the marines lose.

Because flexibility is what you have to pay those extra points for in elites slots. Taking elites choices and then just using them like troops doesn't make any sense.

 Ailaros wrote:
But that's a silly comparison. Why would the terminator get into a 12" slug-fight with tac marines? The reason you spend more points (and the reason they're elites choices in the first place) is for all those extra options you get.

In this case, the terminator deepstrikes next to the tac squad and fires its storm bolter, then the marines back up and shoot (or the two of them chase each other until the marines decide to shoot), which probably doesn't kill the terminator, at which point the terminator shoots his storm bolter again and then runs into close combat with a powerfist and the marines lose.

Because flexibility is what you have to pay those extra points for in elites slots. Taking elites choices and then just using them like troops doesn't make any sense.

I would appreciate if you would read the post you respond to.

Run the math or even read what I posted. The only way a termie unit survives an encounter with TAC marines is if they can limit it to 2 TAC marines per termie or less. It doesn't matter if we talk melee, within 12", or 24". The TAC marines at a 3 to 1 ratio stomp the termies at 12" or less. They edge the termies out at 13-24" by a significant margin. In CC it is the closest comparison but the TAC come out on top even if the termies charge. This means that the termies can only handles bullying units. They cannot handle even TAC squads if they have to fight equal points.

Honestly termies have their uses but this is purely as a bully unit to kill something specific. There is something to be said for a counter meta unit but that is meta dependent.

You have to remember the extras that DA DW termites get. Granted they are possibly not worth so many extra points. But you do gain DW assault, meaning you are able to choose turn 1 or turn 2 for them to arrive, making it easy to re-enforce your lines early, and all their weapons are twin linked the turn they arrive, PLUS they get split fire! Pretty tasty shooty unit....

ansacs wrote:It doesn't matter if we talk melee, within 12", or 24". The TAC marines at a 3 to 1 ratio stomp the termies at 12" or less.

... but they don't.

Terminator deepstrikes in, and fires his storm bolter, killing .22 marines.

Marines double tap the terminator, knocking off .333 wounds.

Terminator fires storm bolter, killing .22 marines. Terminator charges. Marines fire overwatch (assuming all three on the table still), putting down .083 on the terminator.

Then the marines attack, putting down .125 wounds (the terminator is now up to .54). The terminator then attacks with his powerfist, killing 1.26.

This leaves 1.3 marines left. If you assume two marines survive, then the next turn they hurt the terminator .083 again for .84 by the terminator. Assuming that there's still another marine, then the game ends for the tac squad with .041 with a dead marine. The marines have passed all 3 wounds dead, and the terminator is still only at .664. If the marine doesn't survive the extra round, the terminator is at .623, and if you rounded 1.3 down to 1 instead of up to 2, then the terminator wins at .58.

TLDR - Used correctly, a regular tactical terminator will beat three tac marines somewhere between 2 out of 3 and 3 out of 4 times.

The terminator will only lose if you use him wrong - starting on the table and engaging him in mid-range firefights like a troops choice.

 Ailaros wrote:
...
(the terminator is now up to .54). ... then the next turn they hurt the terminator .083 again for .84 by the terminator.... and the terminator is still only at .664.

Your terminator is regaining wound probabilities in your math. He just slightly above dead on average (0.54 rounds to 50% dead) with a TAC marine alive (>1). Then suddenly your termie regains the following turn of combat which should have edged him out below 0.5 (0.54-0.083=0.46 not 0.664) wounds. If you do the math correctly the termie actually dies on average with a marine left alive.

This is not to mention the TAC squad is much more forgiving of small variations in the chance. There is also the fact that this assumed no overkill. Overkill for a termie unit is almost assured in these scenarios whereas the TAC unit can combat squad and force the termies to play the shooting/overwatch game 3 times.

Terminators aren't really worth using right now. Too much AP2 fire and units that can put out enough small arms fire point for point to just force the 2+ save to fail.

So how do I deliver them to the enemy? Deep strike is the obvious option but they are exposed to an awful lot of fire for that turn. I guess this plays into the "not knowing how to use them" aspect of your post.

As I see it, this is the important question here.

As DA bringing Termies with guns:
Load-out - 4xSB/PF + AC or CML (give CML TH/SS if you want) + Chainfist (for fun and late game use) or PC for MeQs (though I prefer the cyclone still, remember that PC is only 15pts)

Delivery - use the Deathwing assault (so as to benefit from twin-linked) just arrive near bikers (for the teleport homers), keep them at a good range.

They don't need to get into the thick of them. As posts above have said, use their storm bolters to fire at the enemy core (volume of shots, at a good range all relentless and assault weapons - so advance as required but don't walk forward just because you have good armour - block line of sight where you need to, even keep at 24" if you need time to let the rest of your army (with heavier guns) take out something which threatens them)
Split fire an appropriate target - depending on your heavy weapon. (Note: you can split fire a storm bolter, I've done this to kill a pesky last wound on a chaos spawn, using the rest of my firepower on a squad elsewhere, just don't forget that)

Just remember what you threaten yourself - use your opponents fear of powerfists to your advantage, try to keep them from soaking fire by limiting what can see them, if they're healthy they interdict space with the threat of powerfists).

As DA bringing Assault termies or Deathwing knights
(Remember a CML in assault termies for deathwing)
Ok so, you don't want to be footslogging, because people will just stay away from you. Ideally a land raider crusader (for the frag assault launchers) but again, don't split from your main force. Just keep it in toe with your army and use them to tackle threats. Assault termies are badass with their 3++ so aim for heavier infantry when you have the freedom to.

As C:SM for shooty termies, you can footslog them if you would like, or deep strike, unlike DA who should always try to deep strike for the bonus Twin linkage pewpew.
Again, keep them with your army, focus on firing at units that you can do some decent damage to. Remember the same thing you find annoying vs your terminators - volume of shots is a good way to get past pesky 2+ saves or units with invulnerables (like demons).

As C:SM for assault terminators - I find that they are really scary in a storm raven. The threat of TH/SS vs their armoured guys is harsh, very harsh when they have the range of Storm Raven, which is insane when you think of Terminators rapidly redeploying.
Vs Tau and annoying interceptors, I would consider a raider instead.

Summary

Space marines (& varients) are all elite armies, and low numbers means you need to use your units in tandem with eachother. The only exception is a kamikaze squad (like sternguard combi meltas in a drop pod) which I dislike.

1. Keep them supporting your main force!!
2. Use them to block charges from things you don't want charging something important (like your librarian for example).
3. Exploit their 24" range firing 2 shots and a heavy weapon on the move (Split fire if DA)
3. Transports are essential for Marines, if you can't afford a transport for your termies, consider deep striking near your force, don't get tempted by that squad of broadsides you want to instagib, stick as a unit (see 1.)
4. Block Line of sight

TLDR -
Position them better so they can't be shot by 2903829083029 things.
Block charges.
Charge things that you need to tie up or that require power fists to budge.


Oh vs Tau, mass firepower vs broadsides to make them run or die through being unable to pass that many 2+ saves. Don't chase crisis sutis with termies unless you have a transport.
Just shoot them, or chase with assault squads/bikers - tie them up in combat to buy time if you can/need to - basically just shoot them.