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I am looking for some feedback on improvements to a list I have put together for a local friendly 2 on 2 game.

We have 5 guys that are building armies that will play 1 on 1 and 2 on 2.
Currently, this month the point limit is 500.
I have two weeks to get ready for the first 2 x 2 game (I will be paired semi-randomly with another army).

The other armies are Blood Angels, Chaos, Black Templars, Necrons (mine and another), Imperial Guard (unlikely to be played).
It concerns me that the Blood Angels will field a Rhino and the Templars will field a Predator.
It also concerns me that the Blood Angels are known to field assault marines for CC.

No other information about the others and how they will play.
A HQ and 2 troops will be required.

I have only the knowledge of this game from reading through the Necron Codex, the 40K Rule Book, and the Space Marine Codex.
Never actually played a game.

I currently have the following Units

1 Overlord
1 Cryptek (currently building)
3 Scarab bases
12 Warriors
5 Immortals
5 Immortials in a box
3 Tomb Blades
1 Wraith (willing to buy and build)
1 Cryptek (willing to buy and build)


ARMY LIST CANIDATE #1:
HQ
1 Overlord - MSScarabs / Sempiternal Weave - 120 pts
1 Cryptek - Eldritch Lance - 35 pts

Troops
9x Warrior - Gauss - 117 pts
8x Immortals - Gauss - 136 pts

Fast Attack
3x Scarabs - 45 pts
1x Wraith - Whip Coils - 45 pts

THE Arrangement

Group 1 - Overlord / Wraith (general idea is to hang around warriors as CC deterrent until juicy target comes near then CC)

Group 2 - Scarabs (Primary role is anti-armor / Secondary is sacrificial entanglement of problematic groups)

Group 3 - Cryptek / Immortals ( 36" lance at Armor, SM Captain) I expect to face small numbers of SM in a squad (5x typically) A single kill outside of 24" will significantly improve my survivability.

Group 4 - Warriors (hoping the larger squad significantly holds up longer against expected 5x SMs by pumping out ~2x shots)


ARMY LIST CANIDATE #2:
HQ
1 Overlord - MSScarabs / Sempiternal Weave - 120 pts
1 Cryptek - Eldritch Lance / Gaze of Flame - 45 pts
1 Cryptek - Voltaic Staff / Lighting Field - 45 pts

Troops
9x Warrior - Gauss - 117 pts
8x Immortals - Gauss - 136 pts

Fast Attack
3x Scarabs - 45 pts


THE Arrangement

Group 1 - Overlord (general idea is to hang around warriors as CC deterrent until juicy target comes near then CC) No strong role that I can see other than to directly engage free ranging individual units. Maybe run to assist CC'd main squad.

Group 2 - Scarabs (Primary role is anti-armor / Secondary is sacrificial entanglement of problematic groups)

Group 3 - Destruction Cryptek / Immortals ( 36" lance at Armor, SM Captain) (Gaze of flame as CC deterrent)

Group 4 - Ether Cryptek / Warriors (Lightning Field should serve as some CC deterrent and Voltaic Staff should help deal with the charging Rhino )

This makes the army into two strong groups. Is this a good idea as each group can only attack one target at a time?


Thoughts?

It will be a rush to build the required 3x immortals, 1 cryptek, and 1 wraith to finish this list.
I might be able to add something but it would have clearly be better than what I have (a ghost ark would be great but the army would be gutted to bring it in).

Thanks for any help.

Biggest issue is anti-infantry for MEQ armies. For just 500 points and your model limitations i'd be tempted to run the following list:

1 Overlord + Warscythe
12 Warriors

5 Immortals (Gauss)

1 Cryptek (Harbinger of Despair + Veil of Darkness)
5 Deathmarks (assemble the unconstructed Immortals to be deathmarks instead).

_____

Have deathmarks wait in reserve so that they can definitely 'mark' a target upon their arrival. Remember they wont have many squads, and will probably be trying to max out squads, so deathmarks will be useful here).
The cryptek's flamer weapon can then deal with any and everything in that squad. (The deathmarks can also make short work of 500 nid lists that include monstrous HQs or tervigon troops). This will also encourage the opponent to break off their warlord from the attached squad to not suffer their fate, making him easy pickings for your other units. For vehicles, either gauss to death or detach warlord and go on the charge (remember it will be much rarer to see vehicles at 500). The one you will see will be cheap transports or cheap weapon-tanks - (the necron night scythe or eldar wave serpent being great examples).

____

As for your own lists, single unit wraiths are very weak against squad firing (bolters, splinter rifles, lasguns, pulse rifle etc) which is what you will come up against the most. So if it was between them id so go with option 2.

Definitely go with list 2.

However, if you haven't built the immortals, build them tesla and not gauss. Tesla works better at longer ranges.

+1 to @xander idea for building the deathmarks, but you can get both by building the immortals from the box, then grabbing a box of warriors and using their legs and chests to build the deathmarks.

Deathmarks are a nasty unit at 500pts, add a VeilTek and you'll be golden.

As a tip, it is better to convert your own crypteks - just get some deathmark heads and convert warriors. Much cheaper.

List two but I'd definitely choose the aforementioned list ^^.

Let's assume I go with the list by xanderMacleod:

If I understand you, the deathmarks would tend to target the largest group preferably with their warlord.
Also, you show the DespairTEK with the Deathmarks but you indicated that the deathmarks were to deep strike onto the board.
The DespairTEK doesn't have deep strike.
It seems like I am missing something.
If the DespairTEK and Deathmarks start on the board (turn1) and then use the veil they go together and Deathmarks 'mark' a target.


Regarding the TESLA recommendation
I see that with weak armor or no armor, Tesla would work better for 12"+ engagements.
Inside of 12", the Gauss seems better.

What if the the Predator shows up with frontal armor AV13?
My only model that could touch it would be the Overlord (walking into main turret and hull mounted weapons fire) and the immortals (which would glance on a roll of 6 but with only 5 models could not be counted upon to glance - 66% to hit / 16% glance / 5 models = 0.5 average glances)
I would be forced to attack this one model with both squads just so I get shots at the side or rear.
As was said by poster, I can expect at least two additional independently maneuvering squads (~400pts) besides the Rhino.


Regarding the Abyssmal Staff.
I will be in near assault distance (8") before it becomes effective.
I assume that once I get into an assault, I will not be able to use it as a shooter.
This suggests that I will get 1 shot off before being assaulted.
Did I miss something?
As it ignores cover, do you use it across cover?
Also, I don't think I see the benefit if it uses leadership instead of toughness. A MEQ is T4 and LD8.
At STR 8 and LD 8, I get a 50% to wound after a 66% to hit and ignores cover (100%) = 33%.

For comparison, a staff of light is STR 5 AP 3 with 3 shots at 12".
With AP 3, I get to ignore armor saves for MEQ
So a 66% to hit, 100% armor, Cover (trees@5+) 66% = 43% (heavy cover drops this to 33% / light cover raises this to 55%)

I get three shots here at a seemingly better chance to hit but the Abyssmal staff COULD hit more units if everything lines up.
How do you use the Abyssmal Staff most effectively?

Thanks for all the great feedback.
It certainly has given me lots to think through.
I think I will go finish my CrypTEK.

I had a thread very similiar to this not to long ago. I'll link it so you can go see some of the info that was presented to me.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/516257.page

I hope this gives you a few more pointers.

When you pair a VeilTek with Deathmarks, you can keep them in reserve and veil onto the board, rather than deep strike.

The Abyssal staff is REALLY good in a deathmark squad because the cryptek benefits from the 2+ wounding from the Hunters from Hyperspace. It is also a template weapon, so you auto hit (assuming you are in range) - combine that with wound on a 2+, note it is S8 and AP2.

Re your comments on armour I don't think you need to worry too much. The warriors will glance anything on a 6+ irrespective of AV. Besides, at 500pts I wouldn't worry about the predator, I'd be more concerned about a vindicator.

Tesla is much better at longer ranges and if you are snapshotting. You could go either way with 5, but I personally would always take Tesla on immortals. The only time I'd take gauss if I was delivering them in a night scythe.

The problem for Crons with rapid fire is that you tend to get assaulted immediately thereafter. While I have had immortals and warriors survive CC (in some cases for amazingly long times) it doesn't happen often. If you only lose 1 or 2, LD10 helps a lot, but if you fail morale you basically get swept.

Thanks for the clarification on the Abyssmal Staff.
So, 100% hit, STR8+2 VS T4 = 83% and ignores cover = 100% = 83% chance to hit.
I see it now.

Regarding the Deathmarks:
They have a 24" range.
So we are looking to land near cover within 24" but with clear line of sight to the target.
At least one round, we should get all 5 firing and no cover.
Assuming MEQ and 5 shots, on average we get 41% (50%th/83%tw) shots expecting 1 hit.
With MEQ 66% armor save, on average no MEQ takes a wound.
I assume that in round 2, the target unit will move to Cover.

Is this what was expected from Deathmarks or do I have the math wrong?
A 50% to hit provides only 2 hits out of 5 as hits are integer units.
Obviously, things can go better or worse.
The probability is that all 5 hit is 3%.

Is the tactic, to land within 12"?
This doubles hits to 4 and provides 3 wounds with 1 MEQ wound expected on average.
Then when we are assaulted, the DespairTEK comes into play.

With deathmarks, the idea is to land within template range and basically kill the unit you have marked. You will very rarely target pure MEQ, because a Death and despair squad gives you the most value targetting MC, or HQ (who may have MEQ attached).

Remember that the Deathmarks are sniper, rending, pinning.

So as a mini-battle report:
I finally got a chance to play the game.
I teamed with a Dark Angel.
We played against Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

Space Wolves brought a Razor Back with lasCannon (48" Str 9) and twin linked Heavy Plasma (36" Str 7)
Blood Angels brought a Razor Back with twin-linked Assault Cannon (24" Str Assault 4) and a Dreadnought with Assault Cannon.
In addition to this, there were three close combat focused tactical squads of 5x each with blood angels having a second CC weapon.

Our group had

Necrons
Overlord joined with 8 warriors
Despairtek with 5 Deathmarks
8 Immortals

Dark Angels
Belial (Storm Bolter&Sword) / Tactical Squad (1 Missile / Veteran Sgt)
Razor back (twin bolter) with Tactical (Veteran Sgt)
Scout Squad (Sniper Rifles Veteran Sgt.)

*********************************************************
Immediately, there appeared to be a problem.
We had two Razors and a Dreadnought to contend with.
We had very little in the way of anti-armor.
The Krak Missile was our only primary anti-armor weapon.
The bolters couldn't scratch any of the vehicles so that took out my partners tactical squad.
The necrons could glance on 6+ but at 17% chance to glance, I did not have the volume of shots typically to make anything count.
One round both warriors and Immortals shot the same Razor for a total of 28 shots to have NONE glance not to mention that during that round the missile hit that same razor but did not penetrate.

The DespairTEK and Deathmarks came in round 2 and attempted to flame a tactical squad in a bunker.
Deepstrike varied enough that I didn't get to shoot with the abysmal staff on that round and the next round the dreadnought destroyed the entire squad with an assault cannon (with help from the tactical squad).

**********************************************************

Obviously, I am giving some thoughts about revamping my 500 pt list.
First, I have to imagine that next round I will face one and likely two vehicles.
It would be quite possible to face three again.
I understand that one of the guys has a predator that might roll out as well.
On top of that, the tactical squads were heavy CC carrying only standard bolters or bolt pistols but with power swords, flamers, etc.

Re-fighting this last game, I think I would start with:

508 pts total
HQ (170pts)
Overlord (170pts) Staff of Light
Royal Court (80pts)
Harbinger of Destruction Eldritch Lance, Gaze of Flame
Harbinger of the Storm Lightning Field Voltaic Staff (Haywire)
Troops (223pts)
Immortals 7x Gauss Blaster
Warriors 8x Necron Warrior Gauss Flayer

Fast Attack (105pts)
Scarabs 3x
Heavy Destroyer Heavy Gauss Cannon

The Plan
I assume that in Round 1, I will face CC squads in Razors expecting to move close and CC (today's tactic)

DestrucTEK/Overlord joined with Warriors (gaze of flame to help with CC but try to avoid)
StormTEK joined with Immortals (lightning to help with CC but try to avoid / Hopefully advance up the field to within 12" of enemy to get Assault 4 out of StormTEK)
Keep Heavy Destroyer around behind Immortals for long range support
Scarabs run @12" per turn to CC vehicle.

Destroyer should be a 50% chance to hit and 83% for HP.
Staff of Destruction would be a 50% chance to hit and 66% for HP.
Neither would be particularly effective against infantry.
I would have to depend upon weaker Squads to reduce Tactical squads (that's why I got lightning and gaze to help).
This works best if I have the initiative on round 1.

Anyway, I would be interested in your thoughts.
I realize that this is fighting the last war, as it were.
This really doesn't balance the fight.
Two shots in round one equal 2 HPs if I am lucky and not on the same vehicle.
Maybe I get a penetration with weapon damaged or better.
Both vehicles survive most cases and move within 24" for assault cannon magic for 4 shots each (twin linked in one case).
This really doesn't work out unless scarabs are within 12" of tank in round 1 and in round 2 they move into contact.
Hope really isn't a strategy and this list seems to require lots of hope.

Hi Gunther,

Sorry your first game didn't work out. From your report you must have had horrific dice - it doesn't matter what your army list looks like in that case.

Just a couple of clarifications:

a) I'm not clear how the dread and Tac squad managed to wipe out the deathmarks in one turn. Did the Dread assault? I assume you remembered to reanimate any casualties after each phase (ie you reanimate after the shooting phase AND after the assault phase).

Even if the Staff missed, you still had 10 sniper, pinning, rending shots wounding on 2+ (I assume you marked the tac squad). Again, if you didn't get a single wound to force the pinning check, your dice were really against you!

b) It is VERY unusual for Crons not to have the tools to take down vehicles. In your list, you had 8 Rapid Fire warriors at S4 Gauss, and 8 S5 Gauss Rapid Fire Immortals? It is unusual not to strip at least a couple of hull points per turn with that lot.

To deal with armour, your options are (in my order of preference)

1) StormTek
2) Anni Barge (Actually Tesla Destructor, so Night Scythe will do)
3) Warscythe
4) Eldritch Lance/HGC or equivalent
5) Volume of fire - Gauss weapons

In your next list, play an Anni Barge (if you have one). If you don't, use a pair of StormTeks, one for each troop squad.

Make sure your overlord has a Warscythe, Semp Weave and Mindshackle Scarabs. He is a beast and will kill tac squads by himself (eventually). More importantly, he will kill landraiders in 1 turn (usually!).

Play your three scarabs, because then you'll realise how good they are. However, know that 3 is not really enough - you will HAVE to keep them away from flamers. Also, remember you get entropic strike for each HIT before you try to penetrate.

hth

To your main point, Yes, the dice were very much against me throughout the game.
At several points where the average should have gone my way, I consistently rolled and failed.


Let me clarify regarding the Deathmarks:
The deepstrike direction was directly away from the bunker and the distance was 7".
As we concluded that deepstrike represented my movement, I didn't get to adjust and the abysmal staff was out of range.
I made a huge error in that I didn't call 'rapid fire' on the Deathmarks and only took 5 shots.
All of the shots missed so the 2+ wound roll didn't come into play. (This is one of those examples of where the dice didn't break my way)

Next round, I took 10 bolter shots which dropped two Deathmarks from the tactical squad I intended to attack. Then the dread moved 6 inches to get LOS and fire 4 Assault Cannon for 4 hits, 4 wounds. (this is one of those examples where the dice didn't break my way)
No one was left to reanimate at the end of the phase.


Regarding the massed fire glancing of the vehicles:
It is quite likely that my positioning limited my effectiveness.
Turn 1: the Vehicles were out of 24" range.
Due to the Assault Cannon, I did not move the squads forward as the board was setup with a large gap across the center.
Effectively, I waited for the vehicles to come to me.

Turn 2: The warriors fired at 24" at the Dread and took 1 HP / Immortals fired at a tactical squad and produced no unsaved wounds
Turn 3: The warriors fired at 24" at the razor and took 0 HP / immortals rapid fired at the razor and took 0 HP.

By the end of Turn 3, my partners tactical squad, Razor, sniper squad, and commander were gone. I had lost the Deathmarks. In return for all of this, we had 2-4 tactical marines to show for it and the weapon destroyed on one Razor.
We ended the game at the point.


The STR 7 destructor would all a hit on AV11 at 4+ or 50% and produce 2 additional auto hits due to Tesla.
Until I hear a better idea, this sounds much better.

The twinlinked Tesla Destructor appears to have anti-infantry potential with 4 assault shots, which if hit cause two additional shots on a model, as well as the low probability rolling 6 to affect a larger group.
So in one round a TD has a 75% chance of hitting 4 shots, creating 12 wounds, and a 40+% of an area affect Arc.

Thanks for the list.

Yeah, the Tesla Destructors are awesome. The Anni Barge pretty much has utility against everything. If you take the destructor plus the gauss cannons it is even better against MEQ.

At these low points levels, your Overlord should have at least MSS, but preferably the Warscythe and Weave as well.

Good luck for the next game! Hope your dice are better.