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'lo thar,

I am a relatively new hardcore TS player and am having some problems with my sons tactics. The tactic that I play is that I use my Sons, a tactical squad and havoc squad to hold the line while my DPs go in and chop things up, my helldrakes strafe run them and my daemon allies deep strike in from behind and burn them to cinders (and my ten cultist also sneak up the side, generally being slaughtered).

The problem for my guys is that my other guys are so in their face all they ever do is take potshots at the few 'nids that survive the flames. I was just wondering how I could get my sons in the fight more, as my havocs are fine where they are, my cultist are doing their thing and the tac squad just adds muscle to my table side objective. I've tried a rhino but it was blown up on the second turn both times, leaving them in the open.

wha do ah do?

tsons are good for aggressively taking points in the midfield, because of their high durability. I don't think they're quite as good as Plague Marines at this job, but their ability to be more threatening to most things advancing them might make up for it. The cultists should be staying on your objective, and squads of ten cultists are way too easy to kill, you should consider leaving them home or making the squad larger.

Also, if they're devoting firepower to a rhino, it's not going at your demon princes. Moving them up 18 inches in the first turn's very important for them doing their job of contesting the middle of the board.

Ahriman and outflanking 1-3 squads of them maybe. A bunch of str 4 ap 3 shots into something when they show up is going to ruin a mid/back objective holders day.

Leave them in the box and take hordes of cultists instead :-P

Bringing Ahriman and the boys is the fastest way to make your list cost too many points and be extremly ineffiecient. Don't get me wrong, 1k sons are cool as heck, from their fluff and the models. But on paper they are bad, and on the field they are bad. The most borderline strategy I'd even consider them for is: Make a B-line right to a MEQ scoring unit. That is also holding an objective out in the open. Seems unlikely, huh? I know... because it is...

Mine make quite nice computer monitor ornaments. Ask again in 6 years...?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Mine make quite nice computer monitor ornaments. Ask again in 6 years...?

At the curren rate of codex releases you just have a bit over 2 years to wait IIRC

Ok, so 1k sons are marines that bring a cover save with them and have better firepower against all non TEC infantry, in exchange for a hefty points bump. If you want to build a list around them, you are going to want something that's capable of taking on TEC saves, anti tank/mc shots, and something that's going to force enemy units out of cover so that your 1k sons can make work of them. Secondary you want something to prevent your sons from being assaulted and some anti horde stuff, since your going to have less bolters on the board due to the higher cost. Termis being deep-struck (or any other fairly tough but offensively potent unit that has other deployment options for that matter) come to mind as a decent choice as your cover busting unit and anti TEC, and will probably draw quite a bit of attention away from your sons, while obliterators fill in the anti tank role effectively and can in a pinch take on most units. Season with other units to taste (drakes are going to be top of the list here, consider daemon allies as well), and while your list may not be considered top tier by many, it has all the bases covered and should put up a good fight against most lists.

Also, if someone is asking for help on how to use them effectively, saying for him to put them on the shelf is not a helpful option. Their not the best unit in the game, but their hardly unplayable, and just require a bit more work to get them into an optimal state.

Onerios wrote:
if someone is asking for help on how to use them effectively, saying for him to put them on the shelf is not a helpful option. Their not the best unit in the game

There is a lot of wisdom in that statement.

thetallestgiraffe, 1k sons are cool. They have great fluff, but they are not super-great units. If your playing beer and pretzel games with your friends, then just take the advise suggested above and use them mid field. Target marines with them. There will be a lot more MEQ targets in the next few months I suspect, so that will help.

However, they are not optimal units. Their DPP and RPP values are pretty bad. Their DPP is pretty average (decent against MEQ, about the same as 2 PGs in CSM squads). The problem is their RPP values are really bad.

What this means to you is that if your playing them, your playing with a disadvantage over your opponent. Your virtually giving them more points to play with over you. If your a good enough player, this will not matter. However, given equal skill and dice rolls, that difference can be significant.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Mine make quite nice computer monitor ornaments. Ask again in 6 years...?

At the curren rate of codex releases you just have a bit over 2 years to wait IIRC

Highly unlikely, as the Chaos book isn't even a year old yet and the gap between the previous two was 5yrs. Before that the gap was even greater.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Highly unlikely, as the Chaos book isn't even a year old yet and the gap between the previous two was 5yrs. Before that the gap was even greater.

The previous gap between the two books is irrelevant. What matters is the current rate of release. GW has been fairly consistent with releases since 6th edition.

In one years time, the following codex's will have been released
- CSM
- DA
- CD
- Tau
- Eldar
- C:SM

Now there are the following armies listed on GW's web site
- BA
- CD
- CSM
- DA
- DE
- Eldar
- GK
- IG
- Necrons
- Orks
- SoB
- C:SM
- SW
- Tau
- Nids
This is a total of 15 different codexs.

So if in one years time, 6 codex's have been released, you can assume that in one years time, GW will be about to release their 12th six edition codex. There will be 3 more codex's released after that point until they get back to CSM -- or 6 more months.
So I will correct my earlier statement. It will be 2 and a half years before the new CSM codex is released.

You are assuming they will be first in the line once again though, but things are rarely that routine with GW. Even their beloved Codex: Space Marines sees a 4yr life expectancy.

When i think 1ksons:

They have a cool ability to do damage to meq at 24-12".
They give access to a sorc mastery l 1 (must be spent on Tzee powers which i find are pretty underwhelming)
They are worse on avg than most meq in cc with 1 base attack but they also have a force wep which can be handy.
They have a 4++ (is it 5?) that can be handy in cc but really doesnt do much to shooting with how easy it is to get cover and that our regular csm can go to ground.
They suffer a little from the changes to rhinos/mobility.
They are super expensive with 23pts + asp sorcs point cost.
They require a sorc hq slot to be troops (and force your hq sorc to take another bad (imo) tzeench spell choice)

Ok so i havent told you anything you dont know.

The problem with 1ksons:
-is that if your at 24-12" and doing damage to meq then they are prolly just as likley to be able to do good damage to you. 1k sons really arent any more survivable than a standard marine. For each of your 1kson wounds you need to do more than a wound back because they are so expensive.
-Also that youve gotta justify taking a sorc hq slot (mot- so more expensive and less effective than an unmarked sorc (imo)) and an expensive (and ineffective?) aspiring sorcerer to get your 1k fellas in.

At the end of the day there are more intelligent and certain ways to take out meq wounds.

Im using my 1ksons as regular marines. My sorcs are ml3 unmarked (but definitly tzeench looking models and tzeench themed army).

The last thing: dont spam MoT in a csm list. Its an expensive upgrade to take as wrote. Use it only to get access to soulblaze or to give a decent invuln not a 5++.

All tzeench lists can be pretty cool and fun but i find you have to look to cd as allies to make it a decent list:
How about a huge 20 man blob of 1k sons. Join Ahriman to it. Take a herald of tzeench with a grimoire of true names and 20 horrors from deamons. Hit ahrimans 1ksons with the grimoire for a 2++ on the whole squad.

Theres 2 force weapons in there to choose from for a range of cc threats, meq is gonna have a hard time against all that ap3. Its big enough so a few wounds here and there wont effect its efficiency to much. Chances are youve got some good psychic powers helping out too. If your opponent runs teq or grey knights prolly just quit (). Just hope your grimoire doesnt muck you up to much... but if it does i guess thats just the whim of tzeench rite? This is why we play 1ksons?

Its also important to note that all these points are in regards to competitive games.

If your just joking around with your friends over a few beers, go ahead and play them. They are cool, after all.

It might be an oversimplification but, their 4++ means they get a 50/50 save against Everything! Use that defensively to your advantage + Fearless and large squad sizes to wade through stuff that normally denies all saves (e.g Demolisher or Vindicator cannons, Plasma stuff, Wraith stuff).

Avoid hordes or DE Disintegrator Ravagers, a 50/50 save, even against Everything, loses it's might against so many dice.

The last thousand sons I saw, I ruthlessly mowed them down with a Baal pred over a few turns. Keep these guys away from units that generate a lot of wounds. IE, keep them away from Eldar and Tau

Take lots of div and try to get ingnore cover

One squad of Tsons max, as everyone has mentioned the point comparison. I really like cultist with MoT. It's save you always get that will save a in every 5 or 6 wounds no matter what. A squad of 20 works well as a retinue for Abby I find, and getting a good roll and taking 6 power weapon wounds down to 3 or 4 can piss of an opponent looking to eat cultist by the handful.

Otherwise, your allies are key, as the deamon options for troops are signifigantly more useful, and Fateweaver is one of the best IC's available to CSM in general.

Finally, max out the Deamon Princes, as Tzeentch has some of the strongest.

For fun, us a dakkapred with warpfire gargoyles and drive around setting people on fire. 3-4 squads on fire and your opponent will start dumping massive amounts of firepower into a 100 pt tank, which is a great distraction while your Sons advance.

Seems like people are giving some mixed advice.

If I read your list correctly, you aren't even really playing a TS army as much as a generic Chaos Space Marines army with a TS theme? What exactly are you taking that is TS? marks on normal Marines? Actual TS Elites? I will be better able to advise in tactica if you provide a more details listing of your army.

In general though, TS are not meant for horde-fighting and thusly they are not ideal for fighting armies such as the Nids or Orks. They are specialists that are extremely effective at killing MEQ and holding objectives.

Take Ahriman. Doing so makes your TS into troops instead of elites. This removes the need to even use normal marines and lets you take larger squads if are not already doing so. Also, deck out your Aspiring sorcerers. remember that they MUST issue challenges so keeping them in good shape is important.

What are you giving your Havocs? In many cases (but not all) I would advice taking a Predator instead. Also make sure that you are using a Defiler against Nids. (Battle Cannon & flamer to help in OW).

My army used to use my thousand sons as troops with a sorcerer, however I found that If I totally upgraded a daemon prince he can take out well over the amount of points you spend on him, and taking two of them has worked AMAZINGLY for me

I use tzeentch daemon allies and all DPs are Tzeentch, so they reroll failed armour saves. My havocs are using lascannons, MON if they are just on regular terrain and MOT if they are on a landing pad. I basically use them to snipe tanks or whatever is needed The army is 1999pts

Ithani wrote:
When i think 1ksons:

All tzeench lists can be pretty cool and fun but i find you have to look to cd as allies to make it a decent list:
How about a huge 20 man blob of 1k sons. Join Ahriman to it. Take a herald of tzeench with a grimoire of true names and 20 horrors from deamons. Hit ahrimans 1ksons with the grimoire for a 2++ on the whole squad.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
How did you get the 2++ save with Ahriman and the 1k sons?

The Grimoire of True Names only works on Daemons. Thus, Thousand Sons get nothing.
Even if they were eligible targets the Mark of Tzeentch includes a hard limit that doesn't allow it to go over a 3++.

I see people all over the internet (don't we love it) suggesting that you should give them Perfect Timing for Ignore Cover. Except for using the Scrolls of Magnus which is too random, no inferno bolts can ever get Ignore Cover.

I'm not a pro, but I think some people misunderstand the Thousand Sons (whether viable or not).

It is cool to get a 3++ on Tsons from certain shield units, or that one Divination power.. and Ahriman is fun when he pops "Final Hour" in Apocalypse.

Allied Daemons of Tzeentch have Divination and thus can roll up Perfect Timing for the ability to Ignore Cover.

Giving them a better Invul through Forewarning is all fine and dandy except it doesn't actually *fix* anything. Thousand Sons already have a decent Invul, the problems come from an outrageous cost coupled with no additional protection from light firepower. Going up to a 3++ is just making your strength even better while leaving the glaring weakness untouched.

I think if you are absolutely set on using them, just take a single unit and get some allied Daemons in the list to help them out. I don't think anyone will bregruge you for rolling Cultists to pad out the numbers and just using a single squad for the image.

That's fine, but how does a Demon unit having Perfect Timing give Ap3 bolters Ignore Cover?

Also, you are dead-on about Small Arms issues. That's why Screamers come in handy.

I don't play TS myself but I have a friend who does. He's pretty good at getting them into the fight and most games against him are close.

His lists usually revolve around 3 - 4 units of TSons and Ahriman. He either gets dakkapreds or heldrakes to go with them. But his armies are always small and he tries to fight on his opponent's half of the board by infiltrating and moving up with Rhinos.

This isn't what I would call a pushover list but you have to know what you are doing with it. Playing Chaos, I've lost to him a couple times where my models outnumbered his 5 to 1 but he had the most victory points. He uses Ahriman incredibly aggressively in cc and has no problem losing him to perils of the warp. There's almost never a turn where his TSons are not shooting.

Perfect timing only works on the casters unit... deamons cant joing units of non deamons no?

Right.

The problem with 1ksons is theyre lack of grenades. It is entirely possible that the whole unit of 1ksons can be tarpitted for the rest of the game with a dreadnought, since they cannot krak grenade it.