Measles Outbreak Traced to Megachurch

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**azazel the cat**

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/08/24/measles-outbreak-traces-to-vaccine-refusing-megachurch/

A measles outbreak in Texas traces to a congregation of a megachurch whose leader, Kenneth Copeland, reportedly has warned followers away from vaccines, advocating for faith healing and pushing the debunked notion that vaccines cause autism. One of Copeland’s churches, Eagle Mountain International Church in North Texas, is the epicenter of the outbreak, which now has hit at least 20 people. According to USA Today’s Liz Szabo,

“
Those sickened by measles include nine children and six adults, ranging in age from 4 months old to 44 years old. At least 12 of those infected were not fully immunized against measles, Roy says. The other patients lack documents to show whether they were vaccinated.

Just as Wales is paying the price of the autism-measles vaccine panic begun 15 years ago, so is this Texas community. In the wake of the outbreak, the church’s pastor and Kenneth Copeland’s daughter, Terri Copeland Pearsons, was urging congregants take advantage of a couple of free vaccination clinics the church suddenly has on offer or to self quarantine at home for two weeks if they didn’t want to receive vaccinations.

The chain of infection began with a person who traveled somewhere outside the US where measles remains common. Unaware of being infected with the virus, this person then attended services at the church, reportedly even coming in contact with people in the childcare room, which might explain why a 4-month-old baby has been infected.

The first two patients were identified nine days ago. As of Friday, 15 cases had been diagnosed in Tarrant County, Texas, and another five had been treated in its neighboring county of Denton. All of the cases trace to the Eagle Mountain congregation. Five more Texas measles cases from this year are not connected to this outbreak. The Texas Department of Health and Human Services issued a health alert related to the Eagle Mountain outbreak on August 16, and the alert remains in effect. Symptoms of infection with the measles virus, which can spread via droplets released during coughing and sneezing, show up from 8 to 12 days after exposure. Symptoms include a characteristic rash, cough, fever, and pain, and there is no treatment. More serious outcomes can range from pneumonia to brain inflammation and death.

Measles is so wildly infectious that neighboring counties aren’t the only geographical areas of concern. Public health workers in neighboring states also are on alert. Health officials in Oklahoma, describing measles as capable of “spreading like wildfire,” are watching the North Texas outbreak closely, given that Tarrant and Denton counties lie just south of the Oklahoma border on a major interstate highway corridor

At what point does freedom of speech and expression come into conflict with responsibility? For example, a doctor cannot tell you to take all the pills at the same time and claim it is freedom of speech, nor can a police officer order you to do a thing and also claim such.

So when a religious institution advises a behaviour that presents an empirically-verifiable hazard, at what point do they become liable as the responsible party for advocating self-harm, if they are acting in their role as an institution that provides guidance?

Discuss.

(but please don't turn this into another "oh-yeah-well-this-other-religion-did-an-even-worse-thing-so-therefore-____" type of thread.)

**timetowaste85**

Anyone else feel like watching The Stand right now?

Also, people can be very, very stupid at times.

**Mr Nobody**

I'm not familiar with law, but can you charge someone for giving hazardous advice?

**Medium of Death**

I bet it turns out the guy telling these people not to do this has been vaccinated himself.

Darwin Awards!

**whembly**

So... you're in favor of the public forcing people to take vaccinations?

o.O

Really.

So tell me... did you have any problems with Texas having a virtual mandate for all women of certain age to get their Gardasil shots (cervical cancer vaccine)?

To be honest, I think an argument could be made to force the population to get vaccinated... I just don't know "at what level" that'll kick in...

You have to let stupid be... stupid for a bit.

**xole**

whembly wrote:
So... you're in favor of the public forcing people to take vaccinations?

o.O

Really.

So tell me... did you have any problems with Texas having a virtual mandate for all women of certain age to get their Gardasil shots (cervical cancer vaccine)?

To be honest, I think an argument could be made to force the population to get vaccinated... I just don't know "at what level" that'll kick in...

You have to let stupid be... stupid for a bit.

We don't have to let stupid be. If some people could have their rights to be stupid trampled over for the sake of future generations being less stupid, I think it would be a good thing.

**Frazzled**

If the illness can kill you or more importantly kill others I'm more touch and go.

Definitely however schools should have the right to mandate vaccinations. You can always home school or private school if you're a wack job, er deny the efficacy of vaccinations.

**d-usa**

I would hope that churches (especially mega churches) that have child-care would follow the same requirements for vaccinations as schools.

**SilverMK2**

Vaccines should, after the appropriate amount of testing, and of course subject to re-evaluation as additional evidence comes to light, be a requirement for all people of appropriate ages. There are a number of diseases which we could have completely eliminated now with worldwide vaccination efforts...

Also, would the gand high priest or however he styles himself be done for practice of medicine without a licence?

**d-usa**

whembly wrote:
So... you're in favor of the public forcing people to take vaccinations?

o.O

Really.

So tell me... did you have any problems with Texas having a virtual mandate for all women of certain age to get their Gardasil shots (cervical cancer vaccine)?

To be honest, I think an argument could be made to force the population to get vaccinated... I just don't know "at what level" that'll kick in...

You have to let stupid be... stupid for a bit.

Public health laws can, and should, overwrite stupid on such occasions.

I got to be on 6 months of liver destroying medications because of TB, and the health department made damn sure that I took the meds for the entire time. Took my liver 6 years to recover, but it's a serious illness and it is a public health risk.

If your stupid endangers everybody else, then it might no longer be a right.

**whembly**

d-usa wrote:
whembly wrote:
So... you're in favor of the public forcing people to take vaccinations?

o.O

Really.

So tell me... did you have any problems with Texas having a virtual mandate for all women of certain age to get their Gardasil shots (cervical cancer vaccine)?

To be honest, I think an argument could be made to force the population to get vaccinated... I just don't know "at what level" that'll kick in...

You have to let stupid be... stupid for a bit.

Public health laws can, and should, overwrite stupid on such occasions.

I got to be on 6 months of liver destroying medications because of TB, and the health department made damn sure that I took the meds for the entire time. Took my liver 6 years to recover, but it's a serious illness and it is a public health risk.

If your stupid endangers everybody else, then it might no longer be a right.

I agree D... I really do.

The "stupid" part are things like parents refusing to vaccinate their childrens due to fears of Autism, or some bs like that.

Right now, I think having state/local laws that provides fundings to schools/daycare should (some do) mandate proper vaccination protocols.

BTW, I had to go through that TB protocol as well... simply because I work for the hospital. But, I almost never see a patient or actually set foot within the hospital.

**rubiksnoob**

Ironically enough, this is what some people would call karma.

**Soladrin**

Hah, this very same thing is happening in the entire Dutch bible belt (yes we have one too). I think so far there's been over 800 cases, but many may be unreported.

**Medium of Death**

Thought about this thread a bit more. I hope these people get their kids taken off of them.

Stupid adults making themselves ill is one thing, kids getting sick because of their parents just bums me out.

Darwin Awards for the adults. Protective services for the kids.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Medium of Death wrote:
Thought about this thread a bit more. I hope these people get their kids taken off of them.

Stupid adults making themselves ill is one thing, kids getting sick because of their parents just bums me out.

Darwin Awards for the adults. Protective services for the kids.

Can't legislate the stupid out.

**generalgrog**

Lets just put this into context shall we.

Kenneth Copeland and his "brand" of Christianity(You can throw Fred Price and Benny Hinn, among others, into the same word of faith movement) is not representative of all evangelical Christians.

The word of faith group, teaches that if you have enough faith you can "believe away" things like illnesses and so forth, and you can speak wealth into existence. Its called the health and wealth cult.(Not really a cult, but it has heretical aspects)

I'm not saying that God doesn't use people to heal miraculously, but He also uses doctors to heal naturally.

Anyway, if this gets people out of that church and into a healthy church, this will be a good thing.

GG

**Grey Templar**

Medium of Death wrote:
Thought about this thread a bit more. I hope these people get their kids taken off of them.

Stupid adults making themselves ill is one thing, kids getting sick because of their parents just bums me out.

Darwin Awards for the adults. Protective services for the kids.

While I don't condone the actions of these people, you should really consider what you are saying. You are advocating taking away children from their parents because there might be a connection between not being vaccinated and getting a disease.

This isn't a situation of child abuse. It does not warrant taking away their kids. There is a difference between misinformation and willful abuse.

**Soladrin**

generalgrog wrote:

Anyway, if this gets people out of Church

Fixed.

**Medium of Death**

If a person is stupid enough to listen to an Evangelist Preacher instead of accepting legitimate medical advice they don't deserve kids.

**Grey Templar**

Medium of Death wrote:
If a person is stupid enough to listen to an Evangelist Preacher instead of accepting legitimate medical advice they don't deserve kids.

1) You are wrong

2) You are using Evangelical wrong and have no idea what it means(it has nothing to do with this situation)

**Medium of Death**

Tell me more about how I'm wrong.

**Soladrin**

Medium of Death wrote:
Tell me more about how I'm wrong.

You're scottish.

Am I doing this right?

**Medium of Death**

Yes.

**Grey Templar**

You have equated stupidity with simply believing a trusted someone who is feeding false information.

Is a child stupid because he believes his big brother when he tells him there's a monster hiding in the basement?

You have then equated this to being horrible parents who need their children taken away from them. That is an abhorrent thing you are wishing on these people and I find that offensive.

Hopefully these people realize they have been lied to. Vaccines are ok. But to say they should be punished for it is wrong. It would harm both the parents and the children.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Medium of Death wrote:
Tell me more about how I'm wrong.

Are we about to see some serious internet-tough-guy'ing?

**Medium of Death**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Tell me more about how I'm wrong.

Are we about to see some serious internet-tough-guy'ing?

No. I just love people saying "You're wrong" and then not following it up with anything.

Grey Templar wrote:You have equated stupidity with simply believing a trusted someone who is feeding false information.

Is a child stupid because he believes his big brother when he tells him there's a monster hiding in the basement?

You have then equated this to being horrible parents who need their children taken away from them. That is an abhorrent thing you are wishing on these people and I find that offensive.

Hopefully these people realize they have been lied to. Vaccines are ok. But to say they should be punished for it is wrong. It would harm both the parents and the children.

I guess we just have different levels of leniency when it comes to idiocy. The fact that somebody could be so deluded that they put all their faith in a man with absolutely no medical credability borders on neglect/abuse in my opinion.

This debate doesn't even need to become a question of "does God exist" it becomes more of "will God help me out". Look at the rest of the world, he's not growing legs or arms back, neither is he suddenly curing cancer. Theoretically if he wanted to he could, so he obviously doesn't want to. Perhaps it's not his place. I don't know or care, but I can never see why people think "God" is a legitimate form of medical treatment.

**Grey Templar**

Think of it like this.

What is the probability of catching Measles in the US. Pretty damn low.

Weigh that against a perceived risk of causing Autism.

That's a pretty big risk to take. It is a logical reaction if you make the assumption that Vaccines do cause Autism.

Lets put it another way.

There is a new vaccine out to treat a rare disease from Africa that has no cure. but it also has a 1% chance that, instead of giving you immunity, it will actually give you the actual disease and you will die.

Are you going to take that risk? Hell no.

Lets say it turns out that the 1% chance of causing the disease was not true. Were you wrong to not take the risk? Of course not. The benefit outweighed what turned out to be a bogus risk.

Its not really all that different from a logical perspective.

**motyak**

It is a logical reaction if you make the assumption that Vaccines do cause Autism.

But this assumption should never have been made in the first place, since it was based on a lie and has since been shown as just that, a lie. And it was proven as that a good while ago. So it isn't really the same as your African scenario.

**Medium of Death**

The probability is low because people are vaccinated, stop vaccinating people and well... you see what happens.

The whole Autism thing is a non starter and brings you back to the "Whack job" vs "Doctor" arguement.

http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2013/07/130716-autism-vaccines-mccarthy-view-medicine-science/

The original research began to be discredited as early as 1999, when two studies commissioned by the U.K. Department of Health found no evidence that immunizations were associated with autism. In 2001, a panel of 15 experts from the Institute of Medicine, which advises Congress, found no connection between the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism. In 2004, a comprehensive review by the Institute of Medicine found no causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

**Grey Templar**

I agree that its stupid.

But its not cause to take away the children over. That would do far more damage than good.

Children should only be separated from their parents if its an abusive situation.