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Made in gb
Ferocious Blood Claw





So I'm getting back into the hobby, I want to run all infantry IG list with 2-3 platoon's with 2 squads of inf and 1 heavy weapons squad per platoon. My CCS would have all the AV weapons team's under him. I also want to use captain al'rahem (my cadian conversion) to outflank. I haven't played sense the start of 5th, keep in mind I haven't bought anything yet and was wanting some opinions.

I have no idea what I'm doing...

Raginmund, Jarl of Sepp 
   
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Fortress of Solitude

To quote Ailaros' EXCELLENT essay on the subject:

Power Blobs
2009-2012
Rest In Peace

6th edition has come out, and is going to force a lot of changes on people, but a particularly big change is going to be required by foot guard commanders. This mostly comes from the fact that power blobs are now officially dead. To explain why, let's look at some of the rules changes in 6th ed chronologically, how you would experience them on the field.

Cover is now harder to get. Back in 5th ed, there was this idea of a unit being in cover. That's been gotten rid of in favor of only caring if the models being wounded are in cover. This means that you can't take a big pile of infantry and have some of them give cover saves to the rest of them. Now you have to have something literally in front of every model that you want to save with cover. What this means is that you're going to have to have airtight bubble-wrap to have the same kind of survivability, which means more cost in wrapper units. Furthermore, this all means that the way you move is now going to be much more limited. The long and short of it is that you're going to take more casualties, especially in a world where rapid fire and heavy weapons can move and still shoot long distance.

Cover saves are avoidable. With the new focus fire option, your opponents have the ability to target only models that don't have a cover save. This means any cracks in the proverbial armor (of which there will be many unless you're literally huddling everybody into a piece of area terrain) can now be targeted. This means that Ap actually matters again, which is a very bad thing for a foot guard army. Furthermore, this even further restricts what you can do, as your special models, like the commissars and guys with power weapons or meltaguns now have to hide somewhere where they are guaranteed to have cover.

Cover is now worse. Unless you're hiding in a fortification, you're now getting only a 5+ cover save for those models that you manage to make cover for.

Wound allocation is different. Shooting starts hitting guys at the front of the squad, and keeps on hitting them until they're dead (and only then moves on). This once again cumulatively affects the way you position your models, as this basically precludes you from putting your good models in the front of big groups of guys. Also, because you have to take casualties from the front, every time you take casualties, you wind up further away from your opponent in assault. Not only does this make assault take longer, and be less likely, but it also causes you to need to bunch up more (see below).

Commissars are no longer hidden from shooting. Sergeants, independent characters, and anything with a sniper weapon can now pick out your power weapon sergeants (and much, much worse, your commissars) straight out of your squads if they roll a 6 to hit. Yes, there is look out, sir!, but that only works half the time. A 50% chance that your squad may be crippled is better than 100%, but it's a long, long way away from the 0% chance they had before. Furthermore, given how wound allocation works with barrage weapons, it is now possible for your opponent to use whirlwinds, mortars, or any other kind of indirect fire weapon to plain old pick out your commissars with nothing more than a hit on a scatter die.

You have to bunch up. All of the above means that you're going to have to bunch up your blobs more. If you keep them spread out, it's possible for your opponent, killing the front guys, to keep you out of assault for an extra turn (whereas in the past you could always take casualties from models in the back while the front ones advanced). Moreover, if your power weapons aren't close enough to the front, it's possible they won't get to swing at all the first turn, which basically gives your opponent a free round of casualties to a already more-injured-than-normal unit, and is especially damaging if you were the one charging, now missing the extra attack. This, along with the no-cover-for-units giving you no advantage for keeping guys back to give the squad cover means that you've got to keep your blobs much more cohesive. This, of course, is very bad. Not only are blast weapons going to get more popular (what with throwing the occasional grenade and barrage weapons being faux-snipers), but you still have to deal with all of the old problems with bunching up your units. As if you needed yet another thing to rack up casualties too quickly on your blobs.

Overwatch. Yeah, it's not the biggest thing in the world, but you're not getting cover saves against those bolters that get to shoot again before you arrive. Emperor protect you if your opponent has a flamer anywhere in the squad, as that's not just extra attacks, but proper flamer hits. On guardsmen. What was already a thin unit now just got thinner. Plus, overwatch can now be used to kill you out of assault range. If only a couple of minis were close enough to make it into close combat, and those were killed, your blob is now stranded.

To summarize, blobs work by attrition, and it's now going to be much harder to keep your guys alive until they get to their targets. Very likely, they're going to be hitting close combat with a lot fewer guys, which means they won't survive long enough to apply their light killing power over enough turns to actually kill stuff. Furthermore, blobs were able to apply damage over time because their power weapons were hidden in a bunch of abblative wounds. Now all those hidden weapons aren't hidden. Any ability for a power blob to go toe to toe in close combat is completely lost if you lose all your power weapons, or lose your commissar before you even arrive. But, of course, that's just things that hurt power blobs before you arrive at close combat. Once you get into close combat, you have to deal with...

Random assault ranges. Yes, the average assault just gained 1", and yes, there is now the hypothetical ability to charge 12". All of this, though, is canceled out by the fact that you could also just charge 2", even over clear terrain and then get horribly massacred by small arms fire next turn. What's worst about all of this is the uncertainty. You just don't know if you're going to be comprehensively butchered, or if you're going to make it into the relative safety of close combat. Whether a power blob has any chance whatsoever is now down to a die roll, rather than decisions you made getting them there. For those of us that have much worse luck than player skill (like myself), this alone might as well be the end of power blobs.

Challenges. This is just another way to make hidden weapons not hidden. The only reason why those power weapon sergeants were able to do enough damage was because they were able to apply it turn over turn. Now, your opponent gets to pick one out and horribly butcher it - let's be honest, a power weapon imperial guard sergeant isn't going to beat very much in a 1-on-1 challenge. Of course, you can always refuse the challenge, but then that sergeant loses his attacks that turn, which is still a big problem, and you'll be made to feel like an idiot. I'd also note that look out, sir! can't be used here, and that glorious intervention makes no sense as everything in the squad is just 1-wound models.

Wound allocation... again. The same problems with wound allocation before in the shooting phase are going to be present now. If you keep your important guys at the back, they're not doing damage, and your blob is doomed. If you keep them at the front, they're going to be the first one butchered. This will be especially problematic against small squads (like assault terminators), where you can only fit so many guys in base contact, but they have the power to wipe out the front row of your guys in a single round of attacking. Yes, you get some amount of choice over who is taken as a casualty, but you don't have total choice. You can only use up abblative wounds from models in base contact, which, against killier units makes the power weapons decidedly not hidden. Furthermore, the rules now compel all characters to rush forward into base contact as fast as they possibly can, meaning that any attempts to keep them out (by, say keeping them in the back, which has its own serious problems) are now no longer as viable as they once were.

Precise strike. Even if you somehow manage to keep that commissar in cover, all the way to your opponent, AND you manage to not get it killed by being too close AND you're still able to get it into close combat and survive against all the goons, that commissar STILL isn't safe. Basically no matter where the commissar is in the squad, your opponent always has the ability to direct their attacks against your commissar with their own characters on the roll of a 6. Put another way, that space marine with a power fist only needs one good roll to punch your commissar to kingdom come. Yes, of course, your commissar has the same ability, but seriously, what's more likely, your commissar killing a marine with his power weapon or a space marine obliterating the commissar with a power fist? This is especially problematic because...

Power weapons just got worse. Yup, they're now only AP3, which means that they gain entire classes of models that they're bad against, like terminators (which we're likely to see more of in this edition), and Sv2+ monstrous creatures, and an awful lot of marine equivalents, given that most HQ choices from power armor armies can take terminator armor (and then punch your commissar's lights out while being practically immune to damage in return), or artificer armor. Yes, you can choose to model your guard sergeants with power axes now, which does give them a nice +1S, but it also makes them strike last - simultaneous with power fists. Even if you kill your opponent's expensive skull champ or sergeant with a power fist, if he kills your commissar, the blob still breaks and is swept.

So there you have it, 12 good reasons why power blobs are dead. Rest in peace, little buddies, you will be missed.

So what now?

Well, if the best way to run guard infantry is now gone, how should you run a foot guard list? Well, there are a few interesting things that happened that help guard squads...

Rapid fire changed. You can now move 6" and fire those lasguns twice out to 24" with FRF. Furthermore, all those plasma guns just got a long, long reach. Remember what I said about cover being worse? Expect plasma in the future, especially since plasma guns just got a lot better against vehicles. Of course, you're still going to want to bring meltaguns because heavy armor just got better too, and now you'll be having to deal with bastions and the like.

Sergeants and commissars gain precise shot. In a world of precise strike, the guard lose badly, as opponent's characters will basically be better than yours. In shooting, however, things are going to be much more equal. Now that your sergeants can pick out individual models with shooting, and not have to worry about getting chumped before they do so, it makes a lot more sense to start handing out the bolt and plasma pistols. Because here, guard have a real advantage. While our characters may be a lot worse, we do get an awful lot more of them. This means that you've got a lot of chances to roll a 6, and ruin that apothecary's day. This is slightly mollified by guard's worse BS, but still, we can field more plasma pistols than we have worse accuracy now. Plasma pistols are still pretty expensive, though, and they've still got relatively long odds to snipe stuff, but if anybody can do it, guard can. Plus, you can always double-down with a "suicide sergeant" by taking two plasma pistols and getting to fire them both. Perhaps not the best strategy, but something to consider.

Heavy weapons changed. That's right, get ready for snap-firing lascannons. Yes, they're only BS1, but they can still become twin-linked with BiD. In this case, you're only losing a third of your killing power while moving compared to a stationary squad that didn't take orders. Plus, like sergeants, we can take a LOT of heavy weapons, so even at BS1, you're still going to be putting down hits. Plus, you also have the option to sit and shoot like normal, even if the rest of the squad moved.

Elites choices got better. Ratlings gained precision shot, ogryn gained overwatch mania, and can give tough cover to infantry squads, and stormtroopers get to abuse the wound allocation closest-must-die-first along with pinpoint deepstrike and Ap3 overwatch. The non-troops part of the guard infantry just got better. More importantly, elites choices feel like they synergize with infantry platoons a lot better than before, rather than just doing what infantry were already doing, but worse, or at greater cost.

Infantry got relatively more durable. Yes, yes, I know what I said before, but infantry still got more durable relative to mech. Chimeras are much easier to take down than before, and guardsmen can now snap fire while having gone to ground, and can benefit from all those weird "mysterious" things in terrain. They're even more durable against psychic powers relative to mech squads than before. On a related note, hydras just got skyfire without interceptors, which makes autocannon HWSs now the clear winner against most targets.

So, what will a foot guard army look like? It's hard to say completely for sure this early, but from this we can make some guesses. The missions as they are still favor spending a majority of your points in infantry platoons, though now there's more of a reason to split them out of blobs and run them MSU, huddling guys around a flag. Guard infantry will now focus much more on shooting, and will generally be used to slowly advance, being a lot more careful to hug cover. Given that russes got better, we'll probably see an obligatory demolisher or basilisk (which just lost minimum range restrictions), especially for "big guns" missions.

In case you missed it, 6th ed foot guard will likely look and play an awful lot like 4th ed foot guard. It will be deja vu all over again.

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All-infantry only works in a very casual environment where people deliberately play weak lists to let you have a chance of success. Even "foot" lists in 6th consist of platoon blobs camping objectives while tanks and flyers deliver the heavy weapons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/27 04:05:06


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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:To quote Ailaros' EXCELLENT essay on the subject

Well, that's power blobs, not all foot guard.

That said, foot guard got gutted by 6th ed for a lot of the same reasons that power blobs did. Well, and by all the new anti-horde stuff in the new codices since the current guard codex came out. It's a fun army to play, but it's also very weak, and if you haven't played the game in awhile you might find yourself getting discouraged by all the face stomping you receive.

As for general inspiration, I'll link you here, which is all of my guard games in 6th ed. For the first half of them or so, I really tried to give foot guard a reasonably thorough workthrough before I eventually got bored with my infantry getting all but wiped out most games and so rolled over to mech.

Al'Rahem I've found is pretty hit or miss. Try out chenkov with send in the net wave conscripts. Those guys are hilarious.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/27 04:05:31


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Made in gb
Ferocious Blood Claw





Wow thanks for the response that article was really insightful. Maby I can have somthing like a QRF (quick reaction force) in chimera's outflanking with Al'rahem? while haveing 1-2 footslogging platoons take objectives while my CCS heavy weapon squad's take out any MEQ the enemy has? Seem's like there alot of possibilities.

I have no idea what I'm doing...

Raginmund, Jarl of Sepp 
   
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 VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote:
Wow thanks for the response that article was really insightful. Maby I can have somthing like a QRF (quick reaction force) in chimera's outflanking with Al'rahem? while haveing 1-2 footslogging platoons take objectives while my CCS heavy weapon squad's take out any MEQ the enemy has? Seem's like there alot of possibilities.


Al Rahem worked a hell of a lot better in 5th edition when you could use a null deployment strategy where you don't deploy anything on Turn 1. He allowed you to gain ground without really trying via Outflank, and encircle your opponent (don't forget that Vendettas also could Outflank, at the time).

Nowadays I'm not really impressed with what he's doing. Sure, you're gaining distance, but most things aren't really that worried about a few Outflanking Chimeras. When you could bring a bunch of Melta Guns with BiD onto the table in 5th, in a mech-heavy environment, it was a big deal. Now? Meh...

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Mech outflanking with al'rahem isnt' the worst thing, mostly because it covers for the (ironically) mobility problems that Al'Rahem most seriously suffers from. The problem, though, is that he can't give orders to anyone, and, thanks to 6th ed's transport rules, is very unlikely to be getting into close combat with his power weapon either.

This means that really the only thing you're getting with al'rahem is outflanking, which isn't much to write home about nowadays. If what you want is 3 chimeras full of stuff in your opponent's deployment zone on turn 2, then just start them on the table, and move flat-out forwards turn 1.

Building a list around a chimera highland charge is actually pretty fun, but now we're talking about a mech list, not a foot or a hybrid list like you're suggesting.



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If you want to charge, you might want to consider taking Chenkov and several units of conscripts.

You keep pushing them forward until they die, which will happen often, but they come back and you can shove them forward again.

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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Can foot-guard win in 6th? Yes.
Is foot-guard easy to win with in 6th: No.

@OP: If you want to run foot-guard, or at least a foot-based list, in anything other than a semi-casual environment, then you can expect to be hopelessly outclased by some builds. However, a foot-based list can work well if supported properly. With 600 points getting you close to 100 guys, you have the advantage of being able to cover your troops fairly cheaply, leaving you the rest of the points to focus on the really killy stuff. A core of 6+ PIS, with a Vendetta or two or AA, some PC/LC Vanquishers for AT/MC-killing, and stormtroopers or vets for aggression can work pretty well, and while not a pure foot list, the core of the list is boots on the ground, so it should fit your theme pretty well.

Al'rahem can be used to deliver meltas/flamers upfield, but is not the most reliable tool, as stormtroopers or veterans in fliers make better offensive units. That said, there is certainly an impact when 30+ guardsmen appear from nowhere, and they can be a considerable threat, or at least a good diversion.

With regards to your suggestion of 2 PIS and 1 HWT per platoon, I would strongly advise getting another infantry squad and placing the heavy weapons in them, giving you a boost to leadership (and therefore orders), more ablative wounds, and the ability to take a special weapon that has synergy with the HW. I'd suggest lascannons and meltas, giving you long and short range AT. This should allow you to pop tanks from turn one, and also deter any vehicles ot MCs from coming near you, as you would then get double the AT shots in essence.

Hope that helps.

 
   
Made in gb
Ferocious Blood Claw





 Paradigm wrote:
Can foot-guard win in 6th? Yes.
Is foot-guard easy to win with in 6th: No.

@OP: If you want to run foot-guard, or at least a foot-based list, in anything other than a semi-casual environment, then you can expect to be hopelessly outclased by some builds. However, a foot-based list can work well if supported properly. With 600 points getting you close to 100 guys, you have the advantage of being able to cover your troops fairly cheaply, leaving you the rest of the points to focus on the really killy stuff. A core of 6+ PIS, with a Vendetta or two or AA, some PC/LC Vanquishers for AT/MC-killing, and stormtroopers or vets for aggression can work pretty well, and while not a pure foot list, the core of the list is boots on the ground, so it should fit your theme pretty well.

Al'rahem can be used to deliver meltas/flamers upfield, but is not the most reliable tool, as stormtroopers or veterans in fliers make better offensive units. That said, there is certainly an impact when 30+ guardsmen appear from nowhere, and they can be a considerable threat, or at least a good diversion.

With regards to your suggestion of 2 PIS and 1 HWT per platoon, I would strongly advise getting another infantry squad and placing the heavy weapons in them, giving you a boost to leadership (and therefore orders), more ablative wounds, and the ability to take a special weapon that has synergy with the HW. I'd suggest lascannons and meltas, giving you long and short range AT. This should allow you to pop tanks from turn one, and also deter any vehicles ot MCs from coming near you, as you would then get double the AT shots in essence.

Hope that helps.


Thanks for the advice! I'm not sure if you think I'm only taking one HW team per platoon when in fact I'm taking a squad of 3 HW teams per platoon. The only way I would draw away from complete infantry list's is vendetta's.

I have no idea what I'm doing...

Raginmund, Jarl of Sepp 
   
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

I see what you mean about the HWTs, but as I say, they are far better as part of an infantry squad. So something like this:
3x PIS, LC, meltagun
rather than:
3x PIS, meltagun and HWT, 3x LC.
In my experience and opinion, the HWTs on their own are just too weak to bring, as with terrible Ld and T3, a single S6+ hit can ID one base, cause a LD test and has a good chance of running off the board.

If you are really against taking tanks of any kind, then what you need to do is find a way of making infantry do what Russes would do in a mixed list. For Anti-horde, stormtroopers Dsing with flamers can be effective, same with meltas for AT. An Al'rahem platoon can help get weapons upfield. The real issue with foot guard is survivability, but there are a few ways to counter this:
- ADL: gives a 4+ cover (2+ if you GTG) and some cheap AA to help out the 'dettas.
- SITNW conscripts: while I am not a fan of these personally, it is hard to deny that an endless scoring unit can help keep your on-field body count up and pretty much guarantees an objective in your Deployment Area.




 
   
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 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
To quote Ailaros' EXCELLENT essay on the subject:

Given that russes got better, we'll probably see an obligatory demolisher or basilisk (which just lost minimum range restrictions), especially for "big guns" missions.



What does this mean? I've found nothing to suggest that Basilisks lost their minimum range.

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The Basilisk can now fire within minimum range, it just means it must do so indirectly, and therefore cannot subtract its BS. This is hardly a loss, as that's only 3", and to be honest, they should be firing indirectly from behind terrain anyway. I can see where you got confused though, I only recently discovered this myself.

 
   
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Ferocious Blood Claw





 Paradigm wrote:
I see what you mean about the HWTs, but as I say, they are far better as part of an infantry squad. So something like this:
3x PIS, LC, meltagun
rather than:
3x PIS, meltagun and HWT, 3x LC.
In my experience and opinion, the HWTs on their own are just too weak to bring, as with terrible Ld and T3, a single S6+ hit can ID one base, cause a LD test and has a good chance of running off the board.

If you are really against taking tanks of any kind, then what you need to do is find a way of making infantry do what Russes would do in a mixed list. For Anti-horde, stormtroopers Dsing with flamers can be effective, same with meltas for AT. An Al'rahem platoon can help get weapons upfield. The real issue with foot guard is survivability, but there are a few ways to counter this:
- ADL: gives a 4+ cover (2+ if you GTG) and some cheap AA to help out the 'dettas.
- SITNW conscripts: while I am not a fan of these personally, it is hard to deny that an endless scoring unit can help keep your on-field body count up and pretty much guarantees an objective in your Deployment Area.





OK thanks for the tip I will definitely keep that in mind.

I have no idea what I'm doing...

Raginmund, Jarl of Sepp 
   
 
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