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I played in a tournament recently against an Eldar player who was using Wave Serpents. He claimed the energy field on the Wave Serpent was a piece of wargear and therefore couldn't be destroyed by a weapon destroyed result, now this I believe and was okay with. What confused me however was does the energy field count as a shooting weapon if you use it's weapon profile.

Let me ask it like this: If a Wave Serpent moves 6in can it still fire the scatter laser AND energy field at its full bs. I say no because the energy field becomes a shooting weapon if you choose to use that ability, however I can also see the argument that it's a wargear ability and therefore not a shooting attack per se. It also doesn't say shooting attack in the weapons profile it just says use the following profile if you choose to disperse the shield.

I'm planning on using Wave Serpents in an upcoming tournament because I was impressed by the shields ability but I want to see what Dakka thinks of the rules. Thoughts?

I suppose this would lead to another argument as to wherever it can be destroyed by a Weapon Destroyed result. Bit of a grey area to be honest unless it's blindingly clear in the 'Dex, which I don't have access to right now.

If it has a "Type," (like Heavy D6), then it is a weapon. I would think you could destroy the shooting profile with a Weapon Destroyed result, while the shield could still be used.

And if you're "planning on using Wave Serpents," then you might want to change your sig

Blindingly clear read the entries.

For Serpent Shield it describes what it is treated as when shooting on page 67 eldar codex


Also Wave Serpents are Fast Skimmers might want to look up what can and can't be shoot at full BS at different speeds.

The problem comes from when does it start and stop being a weapon because the energy field, or Serpent Shield excuse me, also has the ability to lessen penetrating hits. When that ability is used then it's not a weapon and it is listed under the vehicle items in the codex. So what does a piece of wargear that has a shooting profile count as...?

Elric Greywolf said: And if you're "planning on using Wave Serpents," then you might want to change your sig

Haha I still love my Blood Angels though, just wish they would get better.

I discussed this with one of my fellow Eldar players. Against each other it was decided, that the Serpent Shield cannot be destroyed.

Against others, I leave it to my opponent. That being said, the way I play it is if the Serpent Shield gets "destroyed" it cannot be fired but still provides the Penetration negation.

 Happyjew wrote:

Against others, I leave it to my opponent. That being said, the way I play it is if the Serpent Shield gets "destroyed" it cannot be fired but still provides the Penetration negation.

Until they FAQ it (please FAQ it!), I think this is the fairest way to play it. As a non-Eldar, I would find this solution quite acceptable.
The other two options (destroy both abilities; destroy neither ability) don't make sense to me.

 Happyjew wrote:
...if the Serpent Shield gets "destroyed" it cannot be fired but still provides the Penetration negation.

This would seem to be the way to go.

On one hand, the shield is not included in the ranged weapons list in the back. BUT! Since the Codex states that the shield is to be treated as "a hull-mounted weapon" when it's fired (p67), then it would only make sense that the part of the shield that allows it to be fired can be destroyed per the destroyed weapon rules. This would leave you with no ability to fire the shield but the ability to negate pens.


---edit---

Also, since the shield is treated as "a hull-mounted weapon" when it's fired it follows all other weapons rules. So if the serpent moves six inches, then all of its weapons, to include the shield, must follow the rules for firing after moving six inches.

ITs a fast vehicle though so moving 6 isnt much of a issue.

Thats the thing though, if that is how it is worded, "a hull mounted weapon when fired" then when the vehicle suffers a pen hit it wont be being fired so wouldnt count as a weapon then?.

It is not a weapon. pg 67 of Eldar codex describes how discharging the shield can work within the mechanics of the game - hence "treat this as a hull-mounted weapon" with the following profile... but it is not a weapon per se

Can you damage other tanks and remove their special abilities? If I penetrate that Chimera and put holes in its side, is it still amphibious?

Weapon destroyed says to randomise between weapons (including combi-weapons and built in weapons) and wargear that function as weapons. The shield is no longer a special rule but a piece of wargear. It is a wargear that functions as a weapon. Therefore it can be destroyed by Weapon Destroyed.

I don't think it counts as a weapon as it is clearly not under the weapon headings in the Codex, however I don't get this half-ass attempt at a solution; if you want to play the Shield as a weapon great, do, but when it gets destroyed don't say only the shooting ability is destroyed. That makes no sense and has no basis in the rules, if the Shield is destroyed then it can't do anything. It is all or nothing.

It's one peace of wargear, so if it counts as destroyed the whole thing's gone. Shield, weapon, the lot.
The Weapon Destroyed result including things "that function as weapons" (p74) would seem to indicate that this is the case.

 grendel083 wrote:
It's one peace of wargear, so if it counts as destroyed the whole thing's gone. Shield, weapon, the lot.
The Weapon Destroyed result including things "that function as weapons" (p74) would seem to indicate that this is the case.

Kudos to happy Jew, I never knew that little nugget of information, things that function as weapons as well!, well thats my opinin changed then. Yes it can be destroyed. As to whether it destroys the shield as well well, that does need a FAQ.

I would say the Serpent Shield's weaponization allows it in its entirety to be destroyed by a Weapon Destroyed result as it is a piece of vehicle equipment that functions as a weapon. On a successful weapon destroyed result the shield function and weapon function are destroyed.

MarkyMark wrote:
As to whether it destroys the shield as well well, that does need a FAQ.

It really doesn't.

If you destroy a shield that can function as a weapon, the shield is destroyed.

If the rules are there, but not entirely clear and maybe a bit obscure, then an FAQ is appropriate.

FAQs don't (well, shouldn't) change existing rules, just clarify them which is what players need here. If there needs to be a change to make something functional, then Errata used.

IMO anyway.

To those who claim its not a weapon. Fine then - you cant twin link it with a scatter laser. Cant have it both ways!

As already stated, the serpent shield is listed as wargear, and it can function as a weapon, so if its the victim of weapon destroyed, you lose the shield and the firing capabilities as its a single piece of wargear.

... so i wonder does this mean people are finally ok with deffrollas being destroyed by a weapons destroyed result?

 Tri wrote:
... so i wonder does this mean people are finally ok with deffrollas being destroyed by a weapons destroyed result?

Are you okay with the front facing of a landraider being destroyed? A ram attack and a weapon profile are very different

Actually, upon further reading, I'd say it IS a shooting weapon. It's a piece of wargear, but the shield being deactivated is the only stipulation for it to be treated a a hull mounted ranged weapon,

I'd say the fairest thing is to take away it's shooting attack, but keep the shield.

 Happyjew wrote:
Weapon destroyed says to randomise between weapons (including combi-weapons and built in weapons) and wargear that function as weapons. The shield is no longer a special rule but a piece of wargear. It is a wargear that functions as a weapon. Therefore it can be destroyed by Weapon Destroyed.

You all are kind of missing an important point that accepting this brings up

If you assert and accept that the serpent shield is an "upgrade that functions as a weapon" for the purpose of Weapon Destroyed than you should be able to destroy it weather or not it is being used as one.

There is absolutely no way to separate the functions of the shield so either it is an upgrade that functions as a weapon or it is not.

If it is then when penned and weapon destroyed they can destroy your shield, if not then you can never destroy the weapon or shield part.


Here is the line of thinking, its pretty simple.

The Shield is an upgrade that functions as a weapon (weather you choose to use it as one or not)
Since it is, it can get destroyed as a weapon destroyed (weather it is being used as a shield or a gun)
If you destroy it as a shield you loose the shield and the gun and vice versa (there is no rule allowing you to separate, your losing the upgrade not a function of it)

So really you have to decide weather or not the shield is an upgrade that functions as a weapon (never, always, only when shooting as a weapon)

I think the problem people are having is that this is a vehicle upgrade that functions as a shield with an option of being used as a weapon.

 davou wrote:

 Tri wrote:
... so i wonder does this mean people are finally ok with deffrollas being destroyed by a weapons destroyed result?

Are you okay with the front facing of a landraider being destroyed? A ram attack and a weapon profile are very different

Not quite, its an optional piece of war gear that causes damage on units being attack with a tank shock. Its more a kin to a DCCW the model can still make its attacks without just not as effectively ...

... but this debate has gone round before. Cutting it short its to hard to identify what functions as a weapon so if it doesn't have a weapons profile people ignore it. Its a shame its played that way but i understand why.

 Tri wrote:
... so i wonder does this mean people are finally ok with deffrollas being destroyed by a weapons destroyed result?

No, since the Ork FAQ says it isn't.

 Tri wrote:

 davou wrote:

 Tri wrote:
... so i wonder does this mean people are finally ok with deffrollas being destroyed by a weapons destroyed result?

Are you okay with the front facing of a landraider being destroyed? A ram attack and a weapon profile are very different

Not quite, its an optional piece of war gear that causes damage on units being attack with a tank shock. Its more a kin to a DCCW the model can still make its attacks without just not as effectively ...

... but this debate has gone round before. Cutting it short its to hard to identify what functions as a weapon so if it doesn't have a weapons profile people ignore it. Its a shame its played that way but i understand why.

If its a piece of wargear and not a weapon it cant be twinlinked by a scatter laser then as the scatter laser twinlinks all other WEAPONS.

tiber55 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Weapon destroyed says to randomise between weapons (including combi-weapons and built in weapons) and wargear that function as weapons. The shield is no longer a special rule but a piece of wargear. It is a wargear that functions as a weapon. Therefore it can be destroyed by Weapon Destroyed.

You all are kind of missing an important point that accepting this brings up

If you assert and accept that the serpent shield is an "upgrade that functions as a weapon" for the purpose of Weapon Destroyed than you should be able to destroy it weather or not it is being used as one.

There is absolutely no way to separate the functions of the shield so either it is an upgrade that functions as a weapon or it is not.

If it is then when penned and weapon destroyed they can destroy your shield, if not then you can never destroy the weapon or shield part.


Here is the line of thinking, its pretty simple.

The Shield is an upgrade that functions as a weapon (weather you choose to use it as one or not)
Since it is, it can get destroyed as a weapon destroyed (weather it is being used as a shield or a gun)
If you destroy it as a shield you loose the shield and the gun and vice versa (there is no rule allowing you to separate, your losing the upgrade not a function of it)

So really you have to decide weather or not the shield is an upgrade that functions as a weapon (never, always, only when shooting as a weapon)

I think the problem people are having is that this is a vehicle upgrade that functions as a shield with an option of being used as a weapon.

You seem to have missed my initial post, where I specified that how it is played in my group is that only the offensive capabilities of the Shield can be destroyed. I never once said that my groups method is RAW.