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Here's a hypothetical question:

If I was running only one or two Wave Serpents at 1000 points, would it make more sense to make them anti-tank platforms, i.e. with TL Bright Lances instead of TL Scatter Lasers?

The serpent shield significantly increases its survivability compared to other Eldar skimmer tanks, the Bright Lance is an excellent anti-tank weapon, and can be twin-linked on the Wave Serpent, unlike the other skimmer tanks. In addition, the Wave Serpent can also carry troops as a dedicated transport, increasing an army's mobility and freeing up heavy support slots.

What are your thoughts?

The wave serpent with TL scatters, and shuriken cannon is absolutely deadly against any ground AV12 vehicle. The key is the scatter laser twin-linking the serpent shield. Bright lances don't do that.

Heavier armor can be tackled by fire dragons, wraithguard, wraithlords, wraithknights and war walkers.

Deadly? Not hardly. Str 7 Ap nothing is pretty bad at killing AV12.

In volume, STR 7 is very deadly to AV 12. Annihilation Barges, Wave Serpents, Rifleman Dreadnoughts (etc...) are all excellent at getting rid of AV 12 targets, it is highly dependent on the number of AV 12 targets out there. Target Saturation becomes the issue.

To the OP - I have been debating the same thing, but losing the twin linking and volume of fire on the wave serpent just makes me think that perhaps finding the STR 8+ vehicle destruction should come somewhere else. Where? ...well that's up to you, as the book is full of options.

Let me know how you fair, however, should you experiment with BL wave serpents. I think I'd not bother with the shuriken cannon and maybe put Ghostwalk Matrix on there instead so you can keep them in the heaviest cover possible without having to worry about getting immobilized.

Twin linked SL is bound to hit which will then trip laser lock and twin link everything else:

D6+1 Serpent Shield
3 SC if you are in range

That is a ton (9-14) of Str 6/7 twin linked shots

Devastating up to AV12

WABTY

The key is the scatter laser twin-linking the serpent shield

I was under the impression that, because the Serpent Shield is a vehicle equipment, and the Laser Lock rule only applies to a vehicle's weapons, the Scatter Laser would not twin-link the Serpent Shield.

Codex: Eldar page 62:

Laser Lock: If a model is firing one or more weapons with this special rule and also one or more other weapons, roll To Hit with the weapon(s) with the laser lock special rule first. If the laser lock weapon(s) causes one or more hits, treat all weapons on the same model yet to fire this phase as being twin-linked for the rest of the phase.

In any case, I would not rely solely on a Bright Lance Wave Serpent for anti-tank. I would probably back it up with an anti-tank Wraithlord and/or Fire Dragons (possibly inside the Wave Serpent).

pg 67 under serpent shield (treat as a hull mounted weapon pointing forward)

Neither of these suggested ways (brightlances vs scatter lasers) are actually reasonable anti-tank firepower, so it doesn't really matter which you choose.

If you want something anti-tank, take an anti-tank thing like vibro-cannons. If you don't really care about anti-tank (which is perfectly reasonable), stick to the scatter lasers.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Neither of these suggested ways (brightlances vs scatter lasers) are actually reasonable anti-tank firepower, so it doesn't really matter which you choose.

If you want something anti-tank, take an anti-tank thing like vibro-cannons. If you don't really care about anti-tank (which is perfectly reasonable), stick to the scatter lasers.

hee hee hahah eheh. im sory. you must have never used wave srepnts, or faced them. and if so, they wernt used right.

on average,
12 TL shots at S6-7 is better than SO many other anti tank. better than a BL, better than a vibro canon (by a good amount).

I would wonder how much Anti- Heavy Tank (which I consider to be anything AV13+) you will actually need. AV12 and down you can handle just fine with the rest of the army (including the "standard" Serpent loadout), and they should also be fairly competent at getting side armor shots.

I would also tend to agree that putting Lances on Serpents is not ideal, not because you lose the twin-linking but rather because that would make the Serpent multi-role and that's something to avoid in Eldar lists.

If you feel that the threat from AV13+ is something to be worried about, I would look into either putting some Fire Dragons (or Wraiths, especially if you make them Troops) in a Serpent, running War Walkers with Lances, or if you can find the points a Wraithlord or two (or even a Wraithknight, but that might be pushing it). Unless you're fearing Land Raiders, even a unit of Warp Spiders would be highly effective, as S7 on a unit that can very easily get side/rear armor is practically just as good as Lances from the front.

Your last concern, filling up your heavy slots, probably shouldn't be a concern at 1K points, either.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
[
on average,
12 TL shots at S6-7 is better than SO many other anti tank. better than a BL, better than a vibro canon (by a good amount).

No, no it isn't. Your statement is objectively false.

First, Wave Serpents don't have 12 shots. Assuming scatter laser, they have 4 S6 shots at 36" and 2-7 S7 shots at unlimited. Firing a shuriken cannon at all is problematic if you're also firing the shield. You can only move 6" and you must be within 24".

Let's pretend you can some achieve that unlikely scenario, and add it's 3 S6 shots.

One Wave Serpent does, on average, 2.37 hull points to an AV 12 hull without any save. It also has a 10.6% chance of destroying said target with Explosion.

There's not really a unit that corresponds well in terms of costs, so let's use brightlances since you mentioned them. For roughly the same cost, you can have 2 Hornets or War Walkers with 4 brightlances.

They do, on average, 1.33 hull points to an AV 12 hull without and save. They also have a 26.5% chance of destroying said target with Explosion.

2.37 hull points/10.6% explosion is so much better than 1.33 hull points/26.5% explosion to you? I contend that I would rather have more than double the odds of destroying a vehicle, but at least on that you could disagree and contend they are similar.

Put in AV13, and the Wave Serpent no longer even competes.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
First, Wave Serpents don't have 12 shots. Assuming scatter laser, they have 4 S6 shots at 36" and 2-7 S7 shots at unlimited. Firing a shuriken cannon at all is problematic if you're also firing the shield. You can only move 6" and you must be within 24".

Let's pretend you can some achieve that unlikely scenario, and add it's 3 S6 shots.

It's not as unlikely as you think: you can still Snap Fire the Cannons even if the Serpent moves over 6"; with the twin-linking it's still equivalent to 3 BS2 shots (not great, but nothing to sneeze at either). It still makes the math you quoted worse on average, but I wanted to make sure the information at hand was accurate (those extra 3 shots can be quite useful at times).

Don't forget that a lot of AV 13 stuff has AV 11 sides.

The only vehicles that have nothing to fear from the wave serpent are Land Raiders and Monoliths due to being AV14 all around.

Everything else has rear or side armor the Serpent can poke holes in.

And even Land Raiders and Monoliths may still have to fear whatever's inside the Tank.

Fire dragons, anyone?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
[
on average,
12 TL shots at S6-7 is better than SO many other anti tank. better than a BL, better than a vibro canon (by a good amount).

No, no it isn't. Your statement is objectively false.

First, Wave Serpents don't have 12 shots. Assuming scatter laser, they have 4 S6 shots at 36" and 2-7 S7 shots at unlimited. Firing a shuriken cannon at all is problematic if you're also firing the shield. You can only move 6" and you must be within 24".

Let's pretend you can some achieve that unlikely scenario, and add it's 3 S6 shots.

One Wave Serpent does, on average, 2.37 hull points to an AV 12 hull without any save. It also has a 10.6% chance of destroying said target with Explosion.

There's not really a unit that corresponds well in terms of costs, so let's use brightlances since you mentioned them. For roughly the same cost, you can have 2 Hornets or War Walkers with 4 brightlances.

They do, on average, 1.33 hull points to an AV 12 hull without and save. They also have a 26.5% chance of destroying said target with Explosion.

2.37 hull points/10.6% explosion is so much better than 1.33 hull points/26.5% explosion to you? I contend that I would rather have more than double the odds of destroying a vehicle, but at least on that you could disagree and contend they are similar.

Put in AV13, and the Wave Serpent no longer even competes.

you missunderstand me. im not saying wave serpents are the best at anti tank. but they are good. war walkers or hornets are both better, BUT, is better than serpents with only BL, and is a pretty good AT.

also i use my cannon all the time. 12 inches upm, and in 2 turns im in range to fully shoot the cannon.

pg 67 under serpent shield (treat as a hull mounted weapon pointing forward)

Thanks. I missed that.

Though I have yet to play my first game, from what I saw at where I plan to play Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, and Monstrous Creatures are all regularly used (Disclaimer: this was at around the 2000 points level, and I will initially be playing at 500 points). It is my understanding that Scatter Lasers would be of only marginal effectiveness against these types of enemies, while Bright Lances would be more effective.

Also, Wave Serpents are fast vehicles, so they can move 12 inches and fire both of their two weapons (twin-linked heavy weapon and Shuriken Catapault/Cannon) at its full Ballistic Skill.

Like I said earlier, Wave Serpents would not be my only source of heavy weaponry/lances. The reason why I asked was I was wondering if Wave Serpents with Bright Lances would be a good method of increasing my amount of heavy weapons/lances in a 1000 point army.

A single Bright Lance shot is worthless. It has doesn't have great odds in any situation (only ~15% chance of destroying an AV10 vehicle in the open), and as has been noted, Eldar really need to specialize what units do. Also, rate of fire is the real killer in this game. High saves are great, but take enough of them and they will fail same.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

pg 67 under serpent shield (treat as a hull mounted weapon pointing forward)

Thanks. I missed that.

Though I have yet to play my first game, from what I saw at where I plan to play Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, and Monstrous Creatures are all regularly used (Disclaimer: this was at around the 2000 points level, and I will initially be playing at 500 points). It is my understanding that Scatter Lasers would be of only marginal effectiveness against these types of enemies, while Bright Lances would be more effective.

Also, Wave Serpents are fast vehicles, so they can move 12 inches and fire both of their two weapons (twin-linked heavy weapon and Shuriken Catapault/Cannon) at its full Ballistic Skill.

Like I said earlier, Wave Serpents would not be my only source of heavy weaponry/lances. The reason why I asked was I was wondering if Wave Serpents with Bright Lances would be a good method of increasing my amount of heavy weapons/lances in a 1000 point army.

If you want to make Necrons cry, jump your uber-fast Warp Spiders around to their rear armor (they will always keep the rear armor away from your Wave Serpents), and put all those S7 shots into their AV11 tails. Quantum Armor is like the Serpent Shield in that it doesn't protect the rear. I also say go ahead and throw the twin-linked BL on that Serpent, just because it WILL hit and everybody else said not to use it , lol.

Wave serpents likely in top two for transports this edition.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

pg 67 under serpent shield (treat as a hull mounted weapon pointing forward)

Thanks. I missed that.

Though I have yet to play my first game, from what I saw at where I plan to play Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, and Monstrous Creatures are all regularly used (Disclaimer: this was at around the 2000 points level, and I will initially be playing at 500 points). It is my understanding that Scatter Lasers would be of only marginal effectiveness against these types of enemies, while Bright Lances would be more effective.

Also, Wave Serpents are fast vehicles, so they can move 12 inches and fire both of their two weapons (twin-linked heavy weapon and Shuriken Catapault/Cannon) at its full Ballistic Skill.

Like I said earlier, Wave Serpents would not be my only source of heavy weaponry/lances. The reason why I asked was I was wondering if Wave Serpents with Bright Lances would be a good method of increasing my amount of heavy weapons/lances in a 1000 point army.

No problem, easy to miss.

I play Necrons as well as my Eldar, and I will say that Wave Serpents are nasty. You will need some high strength shots to penetrate that Quantum shielding, but after that the Serpents are more than enough to deal damage. Besides they are so awesome against wraiths, and infantry that the Necrons should have a healthy respect for them. Also, Necrons don't have a lot of tools to get rid of Wave Serpents. Yes, they can throw out glances like nobody's business, but they can do nothing against your cover save, and that alone can save your vehicles.

As far as monstrous creature, Wave Serpents will consistently throw wounds against MC without an issue. They won't take one down in a single round of shooting, but in concert with everything else they should throw a couple wounds here or there, which is all you need (or a couple WS targetting one MC can do it). I played against my friends MC spam tyranid army, and my wave serpents were amazing at tearing through his big guys. with a unit of fire dragons or some other punch unit, they'll do just fine against MCs.

Land Raiders pose a different issue, but in the end a land raider rarely causes that much damage, it instead delivers its cargo into you and that causes damage. Wave serpents are great at keep your enemy a good distance away. Use your speed and mobility to keep out of charge range of the nasties, and get good positioning and you should be fine. I usually rely on Wraith knight, fire dragons, or my fire prisms to pop the sucker, and then use the Wave Serpents to kill the guts.

good luck, let us know how you did!

 Homeskillet wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

pg 67 under serpent shield (treat as a hull mounted weapon pointing forward)

Thanks. I missed that.

Though I have yet to play my first game, from what I saw at where I plan to play Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, and Monstrous Creatures are all regularly used (Disclaimer: this was at around the 2000 points level, and I will initially be playing at 500 points). It is my understanding that Scatter Lasers would be of only marginal effectiveness against these types of enemies, while Bright Lances would be more effective.

Also, Wave Serpents are fast vehicles, so they can move 12 inches and fire both of their two weapons (twin-linked heavy weapon and Shuriken Catapault/Cannon) at its full Ballistic Skill.

Like I said earlier, Wave Serpents would not be my only source of heavy weaponry/lances. The reason why I asked was I was wondering if Wave Serpents with Bright Lances would be a good method of increasing my amount of heavy weapons/lances in a 1000 point army.

If you want to make Necrons cry, jump your uber-fast Warp Spiders around to their rear armor (they will always keep the rear armor away from your Wave Serpents), and put all those S7 shots into their AV11 tails. Quantum Armor is like the Serpent Shield in that it doesn't protect the rear. I also say go ahead and throw the twin-linked BL on that Serpent, just because it WILL hit and everybody else said not to use it , lol.

Well ul hit every time, but only pen / glance av 12+ half the time.

Wraithguard and fire dragons can make short work of anything av13+. Serpents are transporrts. The debate is really between the ease and convienence of shooting a target at long range with a bright lance versus other more powerful attacks that either require closing range for passengers or finesse a fast unit like spiders into the rear.

The key to wave serpent anti tank is NO COVER SAVES, it is the best weapon vs tau/eldar tanks and any tank thats getting jink or a standard cover save and is armour 12 or less on at least one side.

To all those doubters out there... i played an 8k battle with my BA the other day, my mate took 18 WS amongst other things. He got 1st turn, and in that 1st turn he shot at my front armour value of THIRTEEN (sorry stressing a point) with his serpents. Yeh the scatters and cannons could do sweet fa apart from linking the shield but he still managed to cause 16 glances taking apart 4 vindis and 2 baals in ONE turn of shooting. We worked out he had rolled only slightly above average (13 glances). So if 3 serpents can strip 2 hull points at 60" range off an av13 target on average then i would consider them effective anti tank!
Against av12 3 serpents on average cause 2 glances and 2 pens with no save (shield) and just over 2.5 glances with their other weapons (scatters and cannons) this is whilst still moving 6" and maintaining a 4+ cover save (although moving 12" would only end up snap firing 2 tl s6 shots). And bear in mind we are talking about FRONT armour here. With their mobility your opponent has to be very lucky not to show his side armour.
For 435points name me something that can take 6.5 hull points against av12 from turn one...
To add insult to injury they are transports and and don't take up any juicy foc slots...

Poly Ranger wrote:
To all those doubters out there... i played an 8k battle with my BA the other day, my mate took 18 WS amongst other things. He got 1st turn, and in that 1st turn he shot at my front armour value of THIRTEEN (sorry stressing a point) with his serpents. Yeh the scatters and cannons could do sweet fa apart from linking the shield but he still managed to cause 16 glances taking apart 4 vindis and 2 baals in ONE turn of shooting. We worked out he had rolled only slightly above average (13 glances). So if 3 serpents can strip 2 hull points at 60" range off an av13 target on average then i would consider them effective anti tank!
Against av12 3 serpents on average cause 2 glances and 2 pens with no save (shield) and just over 2.5 glances with their other weapons (scatters and cannons) this is whilst still moving 6" and maintaining a 4+ cover save (although moving 12" would only end up snap firing 2 tl s6 shots). And bear in mind we are talking about FRONT armour here. With their mobility your opponent has to be very lucky not to show his side armour.
For 435points name me something that can take 6.5 hull points against av12 from turn one...
To add insult to injury they are transports and and don't take up any juicy foc slots...

Exactly

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

pg 67 under serpent shield (treat as a hull mounted weapon pointing forward)

Thanks. I missed that.

Though I have yet to play my first game, from what I saw at where I plan to play Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, and Monstrous Creatures are all regularly used (Disclaimer: this was at around the 2000 points level, and I will initially be playing at 500 points). It is my understanding that Scatter Lasers would be of only marginal effectiveness against these types of enemies, while Bright Lances would be more effective.

Also, Wave Serpents are fast vehicles, so they can move 12 inches and fire both of their two weapons (twin-linked heavy weapon and Shuriken Catapault/Cannon) at its full Ballistic Skill.

Like I said earlier, Wave Serpents would not be my only source of heavy weaponry/lances. The reason why I asked was I was wondering if Wave Serpents with Bright Lances would be a good method of increasing my amount of heavy weapons/lances in a 1000 point army.

If you want to make Necrons cry, jump your uber-fast Warp Spiders around to their rear armor (they will always keep the rear armor away from your Wave Serpents), and put all those S7 shots into their AV11 tails. Quantum Armor is like the Serpent Shield in that it doesn't protect the rear. I also say go ahead and throw the twin-linked BL on that Serpent, just because it WILL hit and everybody else said not to use it , lol.

Well ul hit every time, but only pen / glance av 12+ half the time.

True story. That being said, there's very little in this game that is guaranteed, lol.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

pg 67 under serpent shield (treat as a hull mounted weapon pointing forward)

Thanks. I missed that.

Though I have yet to play my first game, from what I saw at where I plan to play Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, and Monstrous Creatures are all regularly used (Disclaimer: this was at around the 2000 points level, and I will initially be playing at 500 points). It is my understanding that Scatter Lasers would be of only marginal effectiveness against these types of enemies, while Bright Lances would be more effective.

Also, Wave Serpents are fast vehicles, so they can move 12 inches and fire both of their two weapons (twin-linked heavy weapon and Shuriken Catapault/Cannon) at its full Ballistic Skill.

Like I said earlier, Wave Serpents would not be my only source of heavy weaponry/lances. The reason why I asked was I was wondering if Wave Serpents with Bright Lances would be a good method of increasing my amount of heavy weapons/lances in a 1000 point army.

If you want to make Necrons cry, jump your uber-fast Warp Spiders around to their rear armor (they will always keep the rear armor away from your Wave Serpents), and put all those S7 shots into their AV11 tails. Quantum Armor is like the Serpent Shield in that it doesn't protect the rear. I also say go ahead and throw the twin-linked BL on that Serpent, just because it WILL hit and everybody else said not to use it , lol.

Well ul hit every time, but only pen / glance av 12+ half the time.

True story. That being said, there's very little in this game that is guaranteed, lol.

That doesn't mean everything suddenly becomes viable though. the whole practice of list building revolves around trying to limit what goes to chance as much as possible.