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So a friend and I have started a campaign where we used the small 5 game one n the back of the 5th edition rulebook which has been mildly fun(except guard doesnt do great with fluffy lists) we are going on to the 4th mission and Ive lost the last 3 so far which is surprising.

On another note my friend and I are liking the concept of the idea that IG is getting destroyed by nids. But I need some influence on what to run at 500pts and 750 pts for IG, I dont really want to use flyers at that low of points but I will you russes.

Another question is my friend and I dont exactly like the idea of the campaign being preset games as Im the defender constantly getting pushed back even though I might win a game or two. So myy friend wants to try a map based campaign where we can keep track of where we are sending our units like I could be winning at one front but losing at another. I was thinking of using the tiles and some how labeling the flags as different pointed armies.

So each person gets two 2k armies, two 1500pts, three 750pts and four 500pt armies. When an army is killed it is gone. armies can do combined attacks but during the game must be 2 separate armies. But essentially there will be key pieces of terrain on the board and you must claim them in order to win,like say 4 hive cities and you need to have an armie hold it to win.

So with that said whats some good low point guard lists at 500/750pts any advice or tips on how to make a map based campaign fun. My friend and I would incorporate some of the missions from the special missions book to try and mix up some of the games as well to make them more fun and have some twists rather than playing competitive armies.

Thanks for the help!

For map-based campaigns, you could take a look at this thread, which (briefly) discusses options regarding 40k's existing Planetary Empires ruleset as well as WHFB Mighty Empire rules. Perhaps that is of some limited use to your plans?

For low-points guard armies, you have 2 advantages. One is to bring more men than can be reasonably expected by most players, the other is access to relatively cheap AV14, so any list you build should focus on one of these.The strength of nids at this level is bringing quite a few MCs, so that's also a consideration. Here's a couple at 750 that are quite nice, and slightly designed for killing nids:

list 1)

CCS, 4x plasma: 110
Chimera: 55

Vets, 3x plasma:115
Chimera: 55

Vets, 2x plasma, 1 melta:115
Chimera: 55

Punisher, HB, Pask: 250

This relies on the CCS and vets to take on the MCs at range (hence plasma over melta, as you can't afford to get close), while the punisher guns down hordes and can also put wounds on the MCs. You are light on scoring, though, so be careful with the chimeras.

List 2:

CCS, LC, MOO, Standard: 125

PCS, 4 flamers: 50
PIS, LC, Flamer: 75
PIS, LC, Flamer: 75
PIS, LC, Flamer: 75


PCS, 4 flamers: 50
PIS, LC, Flamer: 75
PIS, LC, Flamer: 75

Griffon: 75
Griffon: 75

Gunline the infantry and use the LC to bring down the MCs (BID is great here) while the griffs try and dent hordes before they hit you. Flyrants and tervigons are the priority targets.

For the campaign itself, have you considered adding a resources mechanic, where you start with say, 3 500 point armies, and depending on the tiles you control, you gain X points to distribute on your armies each round. This means a little more paperwork and planning, but also means you get more variety of list sizes and less risk of a 500 vs 2000 game. Also, try using fixed lists for each army, which can only be changed by spending extra resources or spending a turn on a base tile. This is again a little more effort, but could get a nice little arms race going.

Once i get out of work i will post up the lists i used as i really dont know what i was thinking lol.

And for the campaign i did want to try some sort of resource rule and tried looking it up but i couldnt find anything and i had no idea of how to start somethin up like that.

And the fixed lists is what we were attempting to try. So basically those point limits i listed in the first thread would all be set lists so basically if you lost tht army you couldn't get them bak unless you acquired the resources to build another lists

In the 500pts game I ran:
Vanquisher:lascannon/plasma sponsons

ccs:plasma gun

Vet squad: plasma gun

pcs
x2 infantry squads each with a flamer


In the 750 I ran a blob with 3 melta guns and a Lord Commissar with carapace,plasma pistol, and powerfist.

2 LRBT's and I believe a pcs with 2 naked infantry squads again. Might be more stuff but Im sure that was it.

Yes these lists are pretty bad. I was just trying to play more "fun lists" but against nids with a tyrant with armored shell and tervigons its damn near hard to play "fun guard" and win the amount of termagants just overwhelmed my forces.

Our 4th game is coming up and its 2k. My opponents perk is that he can pick the deployment type I believe. I get to place d3+3 minefields which are a 3' range around the base and are difficult and dangerous terrain. My side of the table is fortified up with bunkers and ruins(mainly ruins as thats all the terrain we got) to simulate my opponent reaching my main defense. My opponents side is filled with hills, rocks and forests.

Now Im not sure what list I want to try out at 2k

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/544790.page This list is my most recent competitive foot guard list.

I have a basic mech list, 2 vendettas, 5 chimeras of vets, 3 plasma, 2 melta I believe or I think its the other way around, CCS is in a chimera with x4 plasma and then I have 2 vanqs with lascannons and plasma sponsons, pask is in 1.

The last list is a gunline. But with SW allies, I figured as Guard has been tabled 3 games so far its about time the astartes shows up with reinforcements or should I save that for our last game?(which will be a 3500pts apoc game, no superheavies) I will make up the list that the SW are in a post that later tonight when out of work.

The foot-guard list we know is pretty solid, the smaller ones are a little confused, but making small but effective lists is something that will come more easily the more you play.

As for the resource mechanic, here's something that might work:

Resources represent your armies' ability to redeploy, call on reinforcements, or replenish losses. You gain resources for each tile you hold, in the following amounts:
Hive city: 3 points
Agri-plant: 2 points
Barren land: 1 point.

Each point can be used in the following way:

Redeploy: the army may move a number of tiles equal to the points spent, but forest areas count as 2 tiles and mountains as 3 due to the difficult terrain.

Reinforce: For each point spent, you may add 50 points to the total points allowance of an army. These points must be spent on new units, or increasing the size of existing ones, but may not change the wargear options of units already the army. This may not take armies above 2000 points.

Resupply: you may make up to 100 points worth of changes to your army roster for each point spent in this way, but may not add new units, just upgrade existing ones.

New Army: the player may spend 10 points to create a new 750 point army, deployed on any hive city they control, and may increase this by 50 points with every extra point spent. This army acts as normal in following turns.

This may seem a little harsh at first, but it will encourage both players to manage their resources, as they will need to move to gain more tiles to get resources before they can begin to expand their armies, and then will have to increase the armies before advancing further or risk being outgunned in later battles.

I'd suggest you start with 3 750 point armies (the 500s are really too small to use effectively), and instead of the army being destroyed after a loss, use the following mechanic:

If an army is defeated, it may attempt to flee. Both sides Roll a D6, and if the fleeing army rolls higher than the opponent, they instantly move that many tiles directly away from the enemy army, and loses 30% of its points allowance. If the enemy rolls higher, the army is destroyed. If the rolls are equal, the army falls back as per winning the roll, but loses 60% of the total points instead.

This again adds an element of resource management and tactics as you risk letting an army escape and come back stronger, but also have the risk of losing your entire army should things go wrong.

I'd limit allies to games above 1000 points, as the SW wouldn't pick smaller battles. Alternatively, if you fancy recruiting another nid player (or allow the current one double the armies), you could treat the SW as an entirely separate force as above.

Hope that helps.

That really helps! When my friend and i began looking into campaigns we loved the concept of a map based one but didnt know where to start or how you went about the armies moving and being able to build up strength.

Now in a campaign such as this what would you suggest be a great way to end it, complete destruction of other players forces or a certain amount of tiles in a players control? I assume that also would impact how many tiles you are using.

Also i see for building a new army at 750pts it cost 10pts. Is there a limit on how many points you spend.

And when do you collect resources. Would you do your movement, attacking and then claim resourses or would you claim first and then do all the attacking. And i assume as you are only starting with 3 750pt armies resources up i dont use are saved up.

From this you could have a 750pt army defend against a 1k army as you can use pts to build lists up and there will be at times different lists at different points.

Sorry about all the question, the last post was basically the fire thats gunna get this set in motion and is looking like it will be a great start. Once i mention to my buddy about this we will be pretty hyped up to get it going quick.

For ending the campaign, you can do it in one of a few ways: You could set a limit of say, 20 turns (depends on how long you want to play), and whoever has the most tiles wins, or have one 'home' tile the enemy must capture to get your base, and if you lose that, you lose the campaign. This base should always count as having a 1000 point army based there as a defence force, in addition to any actually armies you put there, to make it harder to take. Either way, the destruction of all armies should be an instant loss.

The points you get are taken at the beginning of the campaign turn, for each tile you hold at that point, and then you allocate them before going further. It is the points that allow you to move, so you can't get them later in the turn. Points you don't spend are saved for following turns, and can be used as normal.

There are no limits to the point you can spend (although you can never have a single army above 2k points), so for a new army, you get 250 points 'free' as it were, and then can expand from there at the normal rate of 50 per point spent, in that or following turns.

You can have fight between armies of different points, and if multiple armies are eligible to attack the same enemy, they count as 2 separate armies for game purposes. Battles are fought at the end of each campaign turn (Ie. after both players have distributed points and moved), and any 2 armies in adjacent tiles must fight. If an army is defeated, the enemy may choose to move into the tile they were on, but remember you can only capture a tile if you hold it at the end of the turn, so this is not always the best choice if you are already capturing a better tile.

I'd say do it Diplomacy style - defeated armies are pushed back, not destroyed outright. Maybe also out of action for a turn or shrunk by some amount, or redeploy back at your HQ. Because 500 vs 2000 is gak and should be avoided at all costs

Honestly, maybe even make armies auto-win against smaller armies (or armies a certain amount smaller), and just play out the even matches? Certainly allow two 500pts to face a 1000pt as a 1k vs 1k battle and don't bother forcing it to be two seperate tiny forces. Between those two rules you get movement and positioning being important, and yet avoid stupid mismatch battles.

Objective is to hold say, 75% of the objective tiles on the map or whatever.

I like the idea proposed earlier of objectives giving resources and how you spend such resources (though 1 resource = 1 movement seems a bit expensive)

I don't think the armies are going to be too imbalanced, as both players can expand armies essentially at the same time, so there is the inclination to level the playing field by plowing points into a key area, and it also adds the tactical element of choosing whether to increase armies and try to hold a position, or to fall back and counter-attack with more force. Yes, a 2000 will destroy a 750, but that just means you have to think about movement more, not putting your smaller armies in danger of being overrun.

Should that situation arise, then it's logical to assume the 500 will lose and just do retreat as normal, exactly as if they had lost the game. But anything within 300 points is worth playing, just to see.

I don't think the movement cost is too high, as there is only so much space on the map, so you don't want armies crossing it in a turn. It makes the initial moves more important, as you have limited movement to have to prioritise, and by the mid-point of the campaign, you should have a load of points, especially if you save them over a few turns.

My friend and I had drawn up a general idea of how to play the campaign over the night and we used the general resources idea and we also had decided that if say a 750 went up against a 1k and obviously it lost we had decided even though the 750 falls back we are thinking of trying to do something similar where the points lost in the battle reflects actual casualties on that unit so like if both armies (750 and 1k) kill each other to 352 and 546 and the game ends then we would round the points up to the nearest 100's place so it would be 400pts left and 500pts left so basically if the 750pt army loses by one victory point or is getting smashed in a game he at least has incentive to continue as he can still weaken the attackers force.

I like that idea of weakening both forces, but it's just more bookkeeping that needs to be done. By all means go for it if you have the time/inlcination, as it is perfectly fluff and makes sense. The only reason I didn't suggest that was that I kind of assumed that once an army had won, and taken a position, then they would easily be able to replace losses, hence remaining at full strength.

The other option is to just say that each VP scored in-game was worth 10% of the enemy army, so if IG win 3:1 in a 750 point game, they lost 75 points and the nids lose 30%, but if the guard win 6:0 then they take no losses to represent the huge victory, and the nids lose 60%. This actually places more emphasis on the actual score of a game, rather than just winning or losing, so could be interesting.

A few of my friends and I actually made a rather comprehensive ruleset for a map based campaign that we never got around to playing, which included a rather good resource system if I do say so myself. I am just typing on my phone so I won't go into anything in depth but if you'd like me to post/pm all the info I have on it when I get home soon I'd be more than happy to, then you could pick through our rules and see what you like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For quick description, it was map based, not using tiles. We made an attempt to make it "macro-micro" so that on the map you're basically playing large scale 40k with armies and such, moving them around and going through phases like in the standard 40k game, and whenever 2 armies got within a certain distance of each other a battle would ensue. On the map we would place markers to indicate Control Points which were worth differing values of different resources, gained every turn by the owner of that cp. Reinforcements also had to come in at CP's so you don't have Guardsmen spontaneously multiplying in the field.

As for resources, we opted to use a three point system that basically translated to manpower, tech, and fuel. I can explain the purpose for the three and their use later, but it allowed us to make different CP's give different resources based on whether the point was a city, factories, science area, etc.

Yes please post or pm the rules, we've been basically putting a campaign together so that when the time comes it will be all set and have a variety of rules.

We will probably use tiles as the map but what we've been most interested in is being in control of multiple forces and basically play 40k like you are some head general in charge of a whole army group. It certainly seems like it will be fun and we plan on getting into the game quickly.

And for each are we will probably mark it with a number so that we will enter that number into a spread sheet or on a paper and keep track of its standing that way based on turns

I'd send a PM to Gordy2000. He'd been running a guard+nid campaign for awhile now.

I will pm him, i would love to get all the advice i can. Even seeing how other campaigns are progressing and operate is helpful.

My friend and i have just finished our 4th battle yeaterday where we did 2k a person and luckily i managed to pull off the first win in the campaign. Last 3 games i had been tabled but this one went very well but was a hard fought battle right to the end.

Now we just have our 5th and final mission. It will be apoc and 3500 pts a person. I took pics for the first 3 games i got tabled and our most epic game the 4th is the one i forgot and i didnt write down what key points happened each turn but i remember most of the key points each turn. Once game 5 is done i will kinda make a really long report in the battle report section.

Would you prefer I PM you or just post the info here? I can do either but it may be a long post if I elaborate on most of the stuff we made up.

It won't matter to me as im basically. Taking all the key info i get from this forum and from everyone else and writing up a list of all the rules for how the campaign will be run and balancing out any flaws.

Well let me get to it then!

Originally this started as what we wanted to be a 2-way campaign between 4 players, 2 IG working together against Eldar and Necrons, because we could. Each team would fight the other team, but each player's resources and actions would be independent of their partner.

Starting off we wanted to have a hand-drawn map that was geographically detailed so you could see that this area is forest, this area is mountain, this place is primarily metropolitan, etc, which we would use for reference to see what kind of terrain to fight the battles in. After drawing the map we planned to work together to place what we would come to call "Command Points" or CP's for short. Each CP we marked as a specific style according to its location such as a major city, a factory district, ancient tech-filled ruins, etc.

The CP's served the purpose of being the primary resource boons. By capturing an area, you would gain the resource it granted at the beginning of each of your turns (I'll get to the turns later). Each player started with one CP that matched their style; Necrons got ancient ruins, one IG player would get a massive city, one IG player would get a factory district, Eldar could have some place with a webway gate in it, etc. Each of these 4 primary CP's we drew maps for the layout of terrain not only so we could have recurring battles in the same areas when a major battle was fought, but also so they could be reinforced (more on that later).

The rest of the CP's were decided to be differentiated by resource type given; now I shall explain the resources so you know what I'm getting at.

If you have played Company of Heroes you'll have an idea of how we foresaw this working... Resources are broken down into 3 groups, which we never finalized names on but in IG terms you'd see them as Manpower, Tech, and Fuel. At the beginning of each player's turn, they received resources from all their held CP's (if none were held they'd get a small stipend to at least give some hope before being crushed), and then the player could requisition reinforcements.

The Resources were, essentially, points as you'd normally consider them to be in building an army, except that different units required different proportions of resources from the three groups. We mega-simplified it after coming up with some odd ratios, but in essence:

-Troops/HQ: All points from Manpower pool
+Upgrades to Troops/HQ: All points from Tech pool
-Elites: Half points from Manpower, half from Tech
+Upgrades to Elites: All from Tech
-Fast Attack/Heavy Support: Half Manpower, Half Fuel
+Upgrades to FA/HS: Half Tech, Half Fuel

So for me as IG, I could have say a pool of 500 Manpower, 200 Tech, and 300 Fuel. I want a Leman Russ for 150 points, so 75 comes from Manpower and 75 from Fuel. I'll throw on a pair of Plasma Cannons for 40, so 20 Fuel and 20 Tech. Simple enough, right?

After you get the idea of the resource types, deciding what resource goes to what CP is easy enough. Vehicle Factory CP? Fuel. Big city/Agricultural area? Manpower. Necron Ruins? Tech.

Our map we had planned on putting on a large piece of wood, some 8x12 feet long (we'd probably make a border and make it a big continent surrounded by water, so the map isn't REALLY 96 square feet) so there'd be plenty of room for some 20 or more CP's, meaning you could have 6 of each type of resource on the board if you wanted to be even and put that many out. That was for us though, with 4 different armies starting at 3000 points each.

So you've got an idea of how the resources work are linked to location; how do you go about getting around and taking the points? Well, we basically made it work like a large-scale 40k in a sense! First off, we would make our starter armies and place them at our home CP's. From there, no limits on what you do with your army, this is war after all! We intended to split our armies up into smaller groups as necessary and rove around the map conquering CP's so we could begin gaining precious resources.

Movement was based on normal 40k movement after a fashion; if you wished to move an army group, you examined the contents of said group and found the slowest moving unit, and then were allowed to move the group a number of inches equal to the slowest model in that group. This allowed for a bit of realism; the Eldar player could zoom around my tanks with his Jetbikes all he wanted, but he also knew that for all his recon whenever he encountered my forward army they'd be just as strong as my rearguard since my tanks and infantry all moved so slow together.

So, on a player's turn they first gained resource as noted above, and then requisitioned reinforcements that could come in at any CP they controlled, and then they began their Movement phase. Most of the army groups we assumed we would mark with coins or single models or something, and we would print out the info on the army lists when we made or changed them. Therefore in movement phase you just have to move a bunch of single models, not move an entire army's worth for every group you have. We felt it appropriate to use the most numerous models to represent them; if it's a jetbike recon squad, plop a jetbike down. If it's an armored column of tanks, use a Russ.

It was also readily apparent that at any time if two of a player's army groups meet up, they may assimilate into 1 group and continue moving with whatever movement is left by the group which moved the furthest to merge.

Once a player ends his movement phase, he checks to see what's around his army groups as it moves into the attack phase. We toyed around with some ideas but the general feeling was that if you were within 6" of an enemy on the board you could initiate a battle. We also declared that if you have a group within 6" of a CP you contest it, provided you have at least 1 troop choice in the army group contesting it (it's very similar to normal control points in 40k). If by the start of your next phase after contesting a CP you are the only player with an army group within 6" of it, you capture it and may immediately claim the resource on the turn it is captured.

However, if an enemy also contests a point at any time before you capture it, a battle will automatically ensue on the next turn of the first person to contest it. This was supposed to allow for thematic 4-way pitched battles between "allied" forces vying for valuable resources.

As far as fighting and resolving battles goes... We personally preferred simply using the old "who has the most points left on the field" method of judging a winner, as no matter how effectively a small 150 point group fights they can't call it a win if they get out but about to be steamrolled by another 1,500 points of tanks left on the board. As such, using standard "turn end" rules when the game is over, whomever is the losing player (loss is up to you whether you want to use Kill Points or Victory Points or what) must essentially perform the same tests as a unit that has just failed close combat; they move their army group 2d6" on the map directly away from the enemy and if the enemy happens to catch up based on their test (it's 1 AM and I play Guard, please don't make me try to remember how close combat works) the fleeing army group is gunned down as they retreat. HOWEVER there is an exception to this run-down rule...

We wanted to allow for strategic retreating, and as such ruled that if any models go off the board for any reason they are not subject to being run down and slaughtered. Coupled with this is the option for any player to at any time move their models off the board if they reach their own edge. This means that if my buddy's jetbikes DO get lured into range of my tanks, they can still gtfo if they want to, BUT they have to be on the board for one turn before they can flee, regardless of his intentions; the battles are meant to be initiated by the attacker, whether it's an assault or ambush or whatever, they get in range of the defender and can take some shots even if the defender wants to get out and away. Logical, we thought.

Once you resolve all the battles, your turn ends and it shifts turns to the next player.

Total victory we never truly decided on. Perhaps wiping your enemy off the board, perhaps amassing a certain amount of resource, perhaps controlling all or a number of the CP's for a whole turn. That's up to you.

A note on timeframe: We assumed that due to sheer size of the map and the fact that in one turn a CP could change hands and be repurposed from giant city to spawning pit or Necron ruins to science lab and back again, each turn should probably be thought of as a good long couple of weeks, or possibly months or years. It's a war, not just some skirmishes. Wars take time!

There were some other ideas we had that we never fully fleshed out but which could be worth noting.

First, fortification of CP's. Particularly with the home CP's, we contemplated allowing players to garrison reinforcements from army groups inside CP's meaning that any time an enemy player tried to capture it the garrisoned unit, no matter what they were, got the Infiltrator rule. For home CP's, we thought perhaps if we drew up those layouts we could allow players to detail their defences based on the pre-set terrain. That could lead to epic-level siege battles towards the end of the game.

Second, "Escalation."

We all like super heavies. Admit it. You know you want to roll a Baneblade around the table and duke it out with some towering behemoth bugs Apoc style once in a while. To accommodate that, we thought we'd start with 3000 points and it'd be more than likely that we'd split the armies into at least 3 groups so most battles would be 1000 point or less skirmishes at first. But what if every turn you upped every resource value by a factor of say 150%? Soon enough that 3000 points could turn into 13,000. Since you're not playing all those at once though, you can still have it broken down into 2000 point armies and never worry about running out of models, but still have that "Epic Scale" feeling to the whole thing. Plus if you allowed proxies then you could easily start rolling out the Baneblades, the Marauder Bombers, the CRASSUS AR-okay, shutting up.

Third: Supply Lines. We never got very far into this because of how wonky it would be with our free-form movement, but one player kept insisting we discuss supply lines. I get that it could be fun realism but to me that was unnecessary convolution so it was never really thought about. If you're dead set on a tile system it might be easier to do something with supply lines leading back to your home CP but I leave that up to you.

Fourth: Rapid Travel
Every army in the fluff has some good ways of getting around during war time and we realized that while we liked the 6" average movement on our big map, there were some times that we would just want to get one group from point A to point B and that's when the Guardsmen would start going "Where the hell is the Navy when you need them?"
Simply put, we thought it might be cool to say that certain CP's (or all of them) could have rapid-travel services that we could re-fluff easily depending on the owner. IG would get starports or something that allows an army group to be picked up on a large dropship and dropped off at another port. Eldar construct webway gates wherever they go. Necrons do the Monolith-eating-things thing. 'Nids could easily have some sort of underground tunnel system or big flying transport bugs that will take them really quickly between points. The purpose of all these is just to allow an army group within 6" of an owned CP to forego movement, be taken off the table for that turn, and at the end of your next turn be placed at their destination CP.

I'm getting a headache from being awake still, so I'm signing off. Hope you get some use out of all this madness!

Awesome thanks, this will help my friend and i settle on deciding on what else we can tweek for rules.

Now idk if i missed it or what but how many points did certain cp areas give off. I know you said you had 3 different kind of points and where they come from but i dont rememer see how much they give.

Oh I did not detail that... Well we never got around to setting up the whole map, we just did a LOT of theory and never played it

I would say you guys just hash out what you think. If the CP is supposed to be the capital of the most metropolitan sector of the map, maybe at first have it give 200 Manpower. A small tank factory might give 100 Fuel. Alien ruins can go all over the place depending on how many upgrades you want to see.

That'd be something I'd say it'd be best for you to decide on your own. How big do you want this game to get? How many vehicles do you want roaming around? That's why we liked the "Escalation" idea so that we could slowly build our forces as we got used to playing on such a large scale, and so we'd not be bumping into each other as we tried to claim the CP's the first few turns.

Alright I got you. Yea my friend and I were going to pick up the tile set and make like a grid and have dedicated armies as certain flags. We figured our first one might be small as it would be our first type of tile or map based campaign but paradigm's way of using resources to move around seems like it would be easy enough for us to try at first so that will be our main way of getting this started.

Thanks everyone that chipped in.