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Given that the Arma war has been raging for years why dont the Imperium simply extracate themselves and virus bomb the planet?
I know fluff states its a highly strategic world but really there cant be much left of worth on it, can there?
Is it a case of simply being "in too deep" at this point and at the most basic level occupying a truely huge Ork force so it dosent wander off to other sectors?

Any thoughts?

(PS I acknowledge its a GW fluff/army driver, speaking strictly from a fluff PoV here).

Exterminatus is only used when a world is about to certainly fall, right now the Imperium is slowly regaining the initiative there since Ghas left.

To the Imperium sacrificing 1 million guardsmen to save a ruined planet is still very much worth it.

I think it's both. There are still huge manufactoriums on Armageddon that are required to be kept running, but Armageddon also acts as a beacon for Ork Warbands across the galaxy who gravitate towards the "muvva of all battles" like moths to the light - and the Imperium keeps throwing troops at them in an effort to contain the conflict in order to minimise damage to other settlements.

Quoting myself from an older thread:

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Imperium will win eventually, likely with Exterminatus. Pyrric victory anyway.

This is really the only way to end the conflict, I think.

The massive number of Orks is just too much - they have gained a foothold and infested entire continents with their spores, in addition to a regular influx of new warbands who have heard of the "Muvva of all Battles". The Imperium has widened the recruitment zone and is drawing ever more forces from around the Armageddon system into the conflict, whereas Ghazghkull proceeded to weaken Imperial positions by attacking neglected outposts and other surrounding systems. Once magnificent hive cities and manufactorum complexes lie shattered and broken, deserted by all but a few homeless stragglers and deserters seeking to escape the relentless Arbites Punitive Batallions. Many of the Space Marines have left, their lightning strike capabilities of not much use during the trench warfare that resulted out of the Season of Fire that is temporarily locking down entire regions, whilst more and more transports have brought fresh regiments for the grinder.

Imperial High Command is no longer calculating in months or years for the conflict, but in decades. Frankly, I am amazed they have not nuked the planet already, but I suppose this could be due to the precious machinery and tech that is hard to replace - or, to suggest a more grimdark possibility, the military leadership might believe it is better to keep Armageddon in a state of perpetual war in order to draw in ever more Greenskins from all over the galaxy, rather than trying to fight them on a hundred planets simultaneously. A diversionary beacon kept lit by the sacrifice of millions of human soldiers who will never know their true role in this ongoing conflict.

@ Harrtiticus Interesting, wasnt aware the Imp regaining the upper hand.


In terms of sacrificing them, I suppose I should have said would a wide-scale extraction be possible? For example pulling back to a certain continent and mass evacuating and then vius-bombing the remaining Orks.
There are billions of them on-world iirc?

Does fluff go into detail about how the Orks are reinforcing? Is it via orbit? If so what is the Imp Navy doing?

If via spore/reproduction, surely virus bombing is the only way?

@ Lynata, interesting.

Ratius wrote:There are billions of them on-world iirc?

Nah, not that many... But they keep reproducing/reinforcing fast.

Ratius wrote:Does fluff go into detail about how the Orks are reinforcing? Is it via orbit? If so what is the Imp Navy doing?
If via spore/reproduction, surely virus bombing is the only way?

They reinforce both locally (spores) as well as by new Warbands arriving with their own ships. The Navy has erected a defence cordon around the world, but since a lot of ships are committed to hunting Ghazghkull's forces elsewhere in the system (which keep harassing planets in the proximity, much to Yarrick's rage). Meanwhile, most of the Space Marines have left (a lot of them for Cadia), taking their space assets with them. There may not be sufficient coverage left in the screen to prevent all approaching ships from "landing"*.

(*: as far as "landings" go for Orks, anyways...)

Nah, not that many... But they keep reproducing/reinforcing fast.

Great stuff, hadnt seen that before.

Really quick calc there but about 30 million Orks so? (3000 max per Clan X max of say 10000 clans)?

Pretty small numbers compared to Nid fleet invasions then (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/539436.page) or Imp overall?

I think it's even less - I calculated a guesstimate from the averages, using all the data provided in that chart, but that has been in another thread a looong time ago ...

Still, I'd point out that Orks manage to make their numbers count for much more than, say, the basic troops of the humans or even 'nids. Orks are extremely resilient and strong in the first place, but what makes them even more difficult to defeat is that you can't even be sure that an Ork is actually dead when you've lopped off its head! A Painboy may just pick it up and stitch it on someone elses body, and - or so GW fluff claimed - it will actually retain its identity and will go back into fight this way. Talkin 'bout battlefield transplantation!

The Imperial Guard pretty much needs to ship in all their reinforcements from off-world, as I imagine there are few soldiers who "only" get wounded instead of killed, considering their enemy and the weapons involved. And even those wounded who manage to stay alive will be out of action for some time. The Orks just speed-breed with spores, and have their Painboyz crudely stitch together Orks that were ripped apart from Imperial heavy munitions.

They seem almost a bit necron'ish in this regard, just relying on biology rather than machinery...

And yes, the old campaign website is awesome. Feel free to look around, it has entries for a ton of military units from the Imperium as well as Ork Warbands! The "news" section has some cool fluff snippets about regional combat results and events, too.

Still, I'd point out that Orks manage to make their numbers count for much more than, say, the basic troops of the humans or even 'nids. Orks are extremely resilient and strong in the first place, but what makes them even more difficult to defeat is that you can't even be sure that an Ork is actually dead when you've lopped off its head! A Painboy may just pick it up and stitch it on someone elses body, and - or so GW fluff claimed - it will actually retain its identity and will go back into fight this way. Talkin 'bout battlefield transplantation!

The Imperial Guard pretty much needs to ship in all their reinforcements from off-world, as I imagine there are few soldiers who "only" get wounded instead of killed, considering their enemy and the weapons involved. And even those wounded who manage to stay alive will be out of action for some time. The Orks just speed-breed with spores, and have their Painboyz crudely stitch together Orks that were ripped apart from Imperial heavy munitions.

Yes great points.
Its probably the very definition of a "meat grinder" fight, both literally and metaphorically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What could the Imperium "drop" in there to truely turn the tide you think? (pardon the pun).

Perhaps a full SM chapter or two half Chapters in a coordinated assault?

A full Titan legion?

Will they bother or just keep feeding in IG regiments over time?

A very interesting question.

It would probably depend on what the people in command would want. If there's really a certain power trying to keep Armageddon at war just to serve as a bait for Orks (there's nothing in GW's fluff to suggest this, mind you, just a theory I'm having), then I suppose they would do little to change things. On the other hand, can the Imperium afford such a "second front" now that Abbadon has kicked off the 13th Black Crusade? Perhaps Armageddon ends up having to be glassed just to free up reinforcements for the Cadian warzone.

Right now, there doesn't seem to be much that can be done.

The following chart was published on GW's website to describe the situation following the Season of Fire. As you can see from the comparison to the website I linked above, a lot of reinforcements from the Imperium have arrived, but how long they are able to stay is anyone's guess, given the situation at the Cadian Gate. Orks have always been said to be very difficult to eradicate for good, and with such a high number of them on the planet ...
Those "Feral Orks" coming from the Jungles are descendants from the remnants of the first Ork invasion during the Second War of Armageddon, just to give an example.



Unfortunately I don't recall having seen a similar "update" for the Orks' numbers.

Wow, to me that seems like an inordinate amount of resources to fight <30 million Orks no?

Not saying the chart is inaccurate whatsoever, just that, the SMS combined with the Legios should be able to break the back of the Orks surely?

After that, its a classic mopping up operation which IG/PDFs could do backed up by a few SM units?

Begs the question again imo, how much effort is the Imp Navy putting into the orbital battle? Sure orkoid reproduction is prolific but easily dealt with if caught early as the Orks are "small"/inexperienced.
Feral Orks whilst numerous are never a planet-wide threat.
They are hampered hugely by basic technology, leadership and lack of "ork cunning".

I really feel a concerted Orbital campaign could swing things around but do acknowledge other sectors needs and availability.

Ratius wrote:Not saying the chart is inaccurate whatsoever, just that, the SMS combined with the Legios should be able to break the back of the Orks surely?

Well, the Orks have their Gargants to challenge the AdMech Titans with; they have gained control of a number of manufactoriums where they have human slaves work on new armaments and vehicles, including crude Orkish copies of the Leman Russ Battle Tank etc.

And as far as the Space Marines are concerned, I think a lot of people slightly overestimate their capabilities, possibly influenced by Epic legends in the Codex fluff and heavily plot-armoured heroics in a number of novels. We have both a Primarch as well as the 6th Edition Rulebook saying a Marine is worth ten normal soldiers, meaning that they are nothing against the Imperial Guard.
Don't get me wrong, though - Space Marines are still humanity's best, I'm just saying that there is a certain tendency to hype them above healthy degrees. What really lets them perform so well and allows them to use their small numbers to greater effect is their lightning strike tactics, the ability to deploy and seek battle on their own terms, attacking an enemy's weak points and thus sort of serving as the vanguard for the massed ranks of the IG who would follow in their wake to fill the holes the Marines have punched into the enemy defence.

These "Blitzkrieg" tactics, however, do not work every time and under any situation, as has also been noted during the so-called "Season of Fire", a natural phenomenon native to Armageddon where firestorms would rage across the lands, forcing the combatants to take shelter. During this time, the battle for Armageddon pretty much devolved into a trench war, and it has been noted that the Space Marines' fared considerably less well under these circumstances, which is why a lot of Chapters have left prematurely, even before anyone knew of the situation brewing at Cadia.

Now that the Season of Fire is gone again, it may well be that the Marines who have remained will once again be able to "pick up the pace", but with such a high number of enemies they need to rely on the Imperial Guard to cover their backs, which in turn again limits their mobility ...

Ratius wrote:Begs the question again imo, how much effort is the Imp Navy putting into the orbital battle?

I'd expect at least bombers and fighter support, but I'd have to read up on the stuff again ... off the top of my head, I can't recall any details having been mentioned in that regard.
Of course, with a lot of Orks pretty much turning the Hives into their private little fortresses, and the Imperium making it a priority to recapture the manufacturing capabilities within intact, this kind of limits the Navy's options as far as bombardments are concerned. I could see Navy ships and aircraft play a big role in battles across the plains (and thus providing cover for Imperial siege regiments advancing on the Hives) but the Orks were mentioned to have their own aircraft, too ...

Of course, with a lot of Orks pretty much turning the Hives into their private little fortresses, and the Imperium making it a priority to recapture the manufacturing capabilities within intact, this kind of limits the Navy's options as far as bombardments are concerned. I could see Navy ships and aircraft play a big role in battles across the plains (and thus providing cover for Imperial siege regiments advancing on the Hives) but the Orks were mentioned to have their own aircraft, too ...

Good point again, dam you.

I suppose it has become very much a fortified/city/enclave holding battle and then striking at the Orks where they are en masse/opportunistically.

Its a pity GW havent moved the fluff on somewhat / given more for Arma - even from a purely "thought-experiment" point of view.

ApoC ( 6th ed ) : Warzone Armageddon. timestamp : 998M41.

Armageddon isn't lost. Plus the whole sector depends on it.

Exterminatus is unneccessary. The IoM will just throw IG at the ork problem until it is reduced to feral orks.
Without GMUT, orks won't win....

Ah I know Arma got a mini update in Apoc 6th 1hadhq, just want a bit more, thats all!

Even a conclusion might be nice

Who knows what will happen... The great Yarrick and Ghazkull are both locked in an endless pursuit and thus off planet.. Both are big morale boosts to either army..

Armagaddon and Cadia are both strategic keypoints they cannot lose... Exterminatus is not a very viable options due to loss of resources and major off planet combat hampering with the operation... I do however put my coins on the Orks... Not because of a realy good based opninion but more to a feeling..

My guess is that if the IOM has to abandon a warfront it will be Armageddon... Cadia simply provides a way to straight line to Terra...

I remember seeing that Armageddon had a population around a hundred billion. It you just take 1% of the population and put them under arms I'm certain the Imperium can hold their own. At least contain the damn Ork invasion. Yes, I am aware of Ork reinforcements from space and grown on the planet, but with enough lasguns and flamers on the field I'm sure the Imperium will win this one. Even if it takes more than a century. They did it before they can do it again (at "extreme" cost).

Hmmh.
Was that the number before or after the First War, at whose conclusion the Administratum had the entire population sterilised and shipped into labour camps and recolonised the world?
Was it before or after the Second War, during which the traitor Van Strab launched a bunch of chemical weapons onto Imperial positions?
Was it before or after that incident in the Third War where the Orks just dropped a friggin' asteroid onto an entire hive and all but annihilated it and everyone who lived within?

Also, first you'd need that many weapons, and then you have to find a way of actually moving those forces around. And unfortunately, the ones most fit for service in the militia are also the ones most fit to operate the machinery required to churn out more and more war gear.
And that's not even taking into account the food or morale situation..

Now, undoubtedly the Command Council is arming as many people as it can in as short a timespan as possible (as can be seen in the rising number of Armageddon Hive Militia regiments), but I think just pointing at the entire population and arbitrarily declaring a number may not work.
I honestly see both the Orks as well as the Imperium having a chance of winning the conflict, though, as both sides have some arguments going for them ... which is probably exactly what the people who came up with it want us to believe.

They seemed to repopulate rather quickly, so it doesn't matter when it was. Even though one hive was taken out there were still others.

Weapons are not an issue. The Imperium loves attrition tactics anyway. Ever seen Enemy At The Gates? Every other man gets a weapon. Even then the Imperium has massive warehouses stocked full of weapons. And there is a constant flow of reinforcements to the planet. No doubt you can get a steady flow of firearms down to the new recruits. You don't need the best bodies, you just need bodies to shoot. And they are using laser weapons, it is kinda hard to miss at least hitting your target.

Food obviously isn't an issue or the planet would already have starved to death by now. And there's something to say for fighting for your own territory and survival. Morale will fluctuate like crazy, but ultimately these reasons will make them fight harder than most of the reinforcements from off world.

It'll be enough.

If you take Helsreach novel as a reliable source then its highly unlikley the AM would allow the planet to be nuked without first being able to extract certain artefacts.............. same with the Ecclesiarchy?

Hikaru-119:
That still seems a bit like an oversimplification. Yes, Armageddon has "massive warehouses", but they held the weapons for exactly as long until they were shipped off-world, and the Imperium did not have sufficient time to fully heal the damages wrought upon Armageddon during the Second War. 40k lasguns have also been mentioned to be inaccurate over long range as "the laser's energy is rapidly disperses into the atmosphere" (2E Wargear supplement), and in short range you have that small issue with a wall of giant, howling Orcs storming your trench, which may unsettled the average person a bit. And lastly, just because Armageddon had no issues with food over the past decades does not mean that this situation would persist when local logistics and transportation are subject to Orc raids, or transport vessels approaching the planet can be intercepted by Orc Kroozers and FightaBommas, or simple ground-to-air fire.

I also very, very much doubt the 120 regiments of Armageddon Hive Militia are in any way comparable or even superior to the more professional regiments shipped in from off-world.
Don't get me wrong - the fluff makes mention of valiant acts performed by the men, women and children of the militia, but sheer numbers and pre-contact determination only bring you so far against such a terrible opponent.

No, I'm going with what the 6E rulebook tells me. "While both sides can claim many victories, none can gain the upper hand for long."

This is but my own interpretation from the studio material in the Codex and on the campaign website, though, and by no means does anyone have to adopt these views.

Even though one hive was taken out there were still others.

8 Hives, one destroyed, at least two under Orc control, a third one currently in a state of civil war between Imperial loyalists and the supporters of Van Strab.

Oh, and do you recall where exactly you've seen that population number? Seems I can't find it in any of my books.

Mr Morden wrote:If you take Helsreach novel as a reliable source then its highly unlikley the AM would allow the planet to be nuked without first being able to extract certain artefacts.............. same with the Ecclesiarchy?

Well, a lot could perhaps be brought off-world like it happened elsewhere - better than to let it fall into greenskin hands, too. But yes, I imagine there may be some installations that just cannot be moved, and even to suggest that the conflict may not be won could be seen as a weakness in the eyes of many. "The Emperor wouldn't allow this to happen", etc.

Armageddon has become a human hellish war of attrition...

Armageddon has become the Orkish Disneyland...

... and now I have to imagine a bunch of Orks sitting in their Rok, all starry-eyed, wearing funny hats and bugging their annoyed-looking Boss with "are we there yet? are we there yet?"

yup..the worst thing you can do is give the Orks a really good fight..and not finish it, the more interesting the enemy. Marines, guard, Inq, hivers, gangers, militia, muties, orkfighters...the more the Orks want to fight. Gotta end the fight fast and final, Ghazzy is a different story, he's kinda the Ork Mozart of war..he composes symphonies of destruction, and moves on to the next, hopefully we will at some point get to see his next creation.