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Does the all plastics release of C:SM suggest we might see the end of finecast?

Too bad it couldn't have happened sooner, like with the Tau release. Would have loved to get a plastic Farsight...maybe more than one even.

Hasn't GW always wanted to move up to doing more plastic characters? Finecast and pewter was always just another medium to use until plastic was more viable $$$ wise

From the very beginning Finecast was stated to be a stopgap before moving to full plastic and we have heard rumours of no new finecast releases after 2014 so I'd guess we are still a while off all plastic with the marine release simply being the exception, not the rule due to the popularity of marines.

That makes sense. I am not going to buy any more fine cast based on that information. I really did not like finecast, too fragile and too sensitive to heat.

It's not all good news, have you seen the price of the new plastic minis.

Orktavius wrote:
Hasn't GW always wanted to move up to doing more plastic characters? Finecast and pewter was always just another medium to use until plastic was more viable $$$ wise

Yes they have, only back when they first hit on the concept, they wanted to do it because it would result in cheaper miniatures with more options for customisation.....

Yes, and even higher prices .

 sing your life wrote:
Yes, and even higher prices .

I decided to do some research on that topic as it is always a hot beef with players. My favorite mail order house, www.squadron.com is selling tanks of the same scale from $175 to $50. The kits for $50 are nowhere near the quality of GW. The ones for about $100 are probably close, but I have yet to fine a kit that is really better than GW. I never worry about parts not fitting. The seams are easy to clean up. The kit is tough when handled, I never worry about a fender breaking or a head lamp coming off. So I would say that GW kits are about $25-50 cheaper than the competition. I have asked my model building friends about the issue and they agree hands down that the GW kits are a really great deal.

I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game. The game recommends the use of 1/56, which is much smaller and almost all done in Resin. The game does allow for use of 1/35, but the figures in 1/56 are much better IMHO.

So I see your point that the price increases are a bummer, but I have to say that the bang for the buck is still there and if you ever try building plastics kits, I think you would have to agree that the GW kits go together better and hold up way better than the others.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Too bad it couldn't have happened sooner, like with the Tau release. Would have loved to get a plastic Farsight...maybe more than one even.

I totally agree. :(

I wish Oshovah's model was plastic, i'd get two - one to convert into a typical commander, and one for oshovah.

As it is, i don't like the finecast commander model (what's up with the "SLIDING INTO HOME BASE, YEEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHHH" pose ?!), and i've had some issues with fine cast in the past, so i've been holding off on getting either Oshovah or a commander model.

If they were plastic, i'd have bought two already.

Yeah but its all ass backwards.

Pewter libby was $18

Then finecast $19

Then plastic $35?

What the crap is that about? Cheaper material double the price?

 sgtpjbarker wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Yes, and even higher prices .

I decided to do some research on that topic as it is always a hot beef with players. My favorite mail order house, www.squadron.com is selling tanks of the same scale from $175 to $50. The kits for $50 are nowhere near the quality of GW. The ones for about $100 are probably close, but I have yet to fine a kit that is really better than GW. I never worry about parts not fitting. The seams are easy to clean up. The kit is tough when handled, I never worry about a fender breaking or a head lamp coming off. So I would say that GW kits are about $25-50 cheaper than the competition. I have asked my model building friends about the issue and they agree hands down that the GW kits are a really great deal.

I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game. The game recommends the use of 1/56, which is much smaller and almost all done in Resin. The game does allow for use of 1/35, but the figures in 1/56 are much better IMHO.

So I see your point that the price increases are a bummer, but I have to say that the bang for the buck is still there and if you ever try building plastics kits, I think you would have to agree that the GW kits go together better and hold up way better than the others.

well, my aptis rahn model is the equal [quality-wise] to the new librarian model IMHO, whilst also being metal [which is classicaly more expensive than equivalent plasics], and yet I got it from wayland games for only half the price of the new plastic character.

Not mention that the equivalent libby in finescat is £11 and that GW has charged more for Finescat than plastic equivalants.

And that the the new captain is £4 more than the old commander kit, that had more options with similar levels of detail [I could go on like this all day]

 sing your life wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Yes, and even higher prices .

I decided to do some research on that topic as it is always a hot beef with players. My favorite mail order house, www.squadron.com is selling tanks of the same scale from $175 to $50. The kits for $50 are nowhere near the quality of GW. The ones for about $100 are probably close, but I have yet to fine a kit that is really better than GW. I never worry about parts not fitting. The seams are easy to clean up. The kit is tough when handled, I never worry about a fender breaking or a head lamp coming off. So I would say that GW kits are about $25-50 cheaper than the competition. I have asked my model building friends about the issue and they agree hands down that the GW kits are a really great deal.

I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game. The game recommends the use of 1/56, which is much smaller and almost all done in Resin. The game does allow for use of 1/35, but the figures in 1/56 are much better IMHO.

So I see your point that the price increases are a bummer, but I have to say that the bang for the buck is still there and if you ever try building plastics kits, I think you would have to agree that the GW kits go together better and hold up way better than the others.

well, my aptis rahn model is the equal [quality-wise] to the new librarian model IMHO, whilst also being metal [which is classicaly more expensive than equivalent plasics], and yet I got it from wayland games for only half the price of the new plastic character.

Not mention that the equivalent libby in finescat is £11 and that GW has charged more for Finescat than plastic equivalants.

And that the the new captain is £4 more than the old commander kit, that had more options with similar levels of detail [I could go on like this all day]

That's great, but the quality of those knock offs is not as high as I like, IMHO. As to bits, I have so many bits that having more is really not that important, unless those bits are new, like Grav weapons are.

I just think the money is really not as important as the quality and the support of the game. So, I agree with you, I just feel differently.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah but its all ass backwards.

Pewter libby was $18

Then finecast $19

Then plastic $35?

What the crap is that about? Cheaper material double the price?

Meh,
It was ass backwards when they were selling the Librarian for $18. At this point GW pricing just offers you differing degrees of bass-ackwardness.

Out of curiosity though are you referring to the upcoming librarian with the skull-face cherub familiar. A friend of mine mentioned it, but we weren't sure what material it was made of.

Ravenous is. CAD price is $35 v. USD price of $30.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:


I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game.

How is this possible? 1/35 is nearly double the size of 1/56 (28mm). Are you using only 1/35 scale miniatures for infantry? Because that would get really expensive really quickly and would take a very big table if you scale up ranges.

 Eilif wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:


I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game.

How is this possible? 1/35 is nearly double the size of 1/56 (28mm). Are you using only 1/35 scale miniatures for infantry? Because that would get really expensive really quickly and would take a very big table if you scale up ranges.

He's also comparing the prices of 1:35 tanks to 1/56. That'd be like me complaining that 1/56 tanks cost more than 1/72 scale tanks!

It's always been GWs plan to take their range from metal + plastic to finecast + plastic to eventually completely plastic. It'll take a lot longer for that to happen, but this release could be the start.

Saying that though, GW have been releasing plastic characters for a while now, and the Space Marine range was relatively developed (i.e. most metal models are already finecast).

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah but its all ass backwards.
Pewter libby was $18
Then finecast $19
Then plastic $35?
What the crap is that about? Cheaper material double the price?

They're normalising worldwide prices to an extent.

By bumping the rest of the world up to Australian prices.


Not a joke, unfortunately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sing your life wrote:

And that the the new captain is £4 more than the old commander kit, that had more options with similar levels of detail [I could go on like this all day]

Is the multipart commander kit still available? I might have to grab one or two for bits before they torpedo it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:


I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game.

How is this possible? 1/35 is nearly double the size of 1/56 (28mm). Are you using only 1/35 scale miniatures for infantry? Because that would get really expensive really quickly and would take a very big table if you scale up ranges.

Unless he means 1/48, which is the usual scale for effective proxying of vehicles (but hard to get many kits in)?

I actually really don't have any gripes against finecast. I own an Arjac Rockfist, Njal Stormcaller, and Logan Grimnar. Aside from the usual cleaning up and washing of the resin, all three models have been great.

I don't like finecast much to paint on...but then plastic is more expensive. I suppose I will save plastic for the really important models.

 Eilif wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:


I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game.

How is this possible? 1/35 is nearly double the size of 1/56 (28mm). Are you using only 1/35 scale miniatures for infantry? Because that would get really expensive really quickly and would take a very big table if you scale up ranges.

The game is really less like Squad Leader and more a game to have Fun with. The company sites that most battle took place at less than 500 yards so most games falsely represent the combat. I just enjoy the game system. I tried playing with 1/48 scale, but the 1/56 are so simple to put together and paint, so I have stayed with that scale.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:


I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game.

How is this possible? 1/35 is nearly double the size of 1/56 (28mm). Are you using only 1/35 scale miniatures for infantry? Because that would get really expensive really quickly and would take a very big table if you scale up ranges.

The game is really less like Squad Leader and more a game to have Fun with. The company sites that most battle took place at less than 500 yards so most games falsely represent the combat. I just enjoy the game system. I tried playing with 1/48 scale, but the 1/56 are so simple to put together and paint, so I have stayed with that scale.

Just to clarify, when you said 1/35 for vehicles, you meant 1/56? Don't mean to harp on, I'm just trying to understand.

As for 1/48, for vehicles, it's fairly workable, especially when dealing with metal figures where the added bulk (most metals lean a bit more heroic) and the thickness of the base bring average 28mm mini very close to the height (though not quite) and bulk of a 1/48 model figure. As you say, the 1/48 plastic armored vehicle range is fairly limited, and 1/56 vehicles are mostly resin wargaming kits.

Not having interest in historicals, I've not played Bolt Action myself, but I've read quite a bit about it. Though not among the most accurate rulesets, it's widely regarded as a good ruleset in it's own right with good play flow and especially accessible for those coming from GW games.

No wonder. Bolt Action was written by ex-GW folks.
I have the game and have played it. While reading the rules I had a sort of deja-vu, they seemed oddly familiar to me yet different. The game is fun to play and moves quickly. Tactical blunders are rewarded with swift death. The unit activation system is innovative and well thought out.

Back to the topic.... I am happy to see it go. I bought and painted one fine cast figure and its quality was anything but fine. I'll be sticking with old metal or plastics.

As much as I hate Finecast (have never and will never buy anything in that medium), I still see it's financial merits when I see what they think we should pay for the new plastic models. They claim pewter was far too expensive to produce things in, but then they price the new plastic models at approx. twice what they would be at in metal. I'm pretty sure they think we are all drooling idiots, willing to pay any price they put out there.

I mean c'mon. The new plastic Space marine commander is $30US for the equivalent of the commander from the Assault on Black Reach set. Good....God....

 Eilif wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:


I use to be able to say that GW was the only place I could get a great kit, build it, and then use it as a playing piece in a great game, but that too has changed. The new Bolt Action allows me to build the big 1/35 kits and use them in a great game.

How is this possible? 1/35 is nearly double the size of 1/56 (28mm). Are you using only 1/35 scale miniatures for infantry? Because that would get really expensive really quickly and would take a very big table if you scale up ranges.

The game is really less like Squad Leader and more a game to have Fun with. The company sites that most battle took place at less than 500 yards so most games falsely represent the combat. I just enjoy the game system. I tried playing with 1/48 scale, but the 1/56 are so simple to put together and paint, so I have stayed with that scale.

Just to clarify, when you said 1/35 for vehicles, you meant 1/56? Don't mean to harp on, I'm just trying to understand.

As for 1/48, for vehicles, it's fairly workable, especially when dealing with metal figures where the added bulk (most metals lean a bit more heroic) and the thickness of the base bring average 28mm mini very close to the height (though not quite) and bulk of a 1/48 model figure. As you say, the 1/48 plastic armored vehicle range is fairly limited, and 1/56 vehicles are mostly resin wargaming kits.

Not having interest in historicals, I've not played Bolt Action myself, but I've read quite a bit about it. Though not among the most accurate rulesets, it's widely regarded as a good ruleset in it's own right with good play flow and especially accessible for those coming from GW games.

I used 1/35 as a comparison because the kits are about the same size as the vehicles of 40k. I know there are people out there using 1/35 for bolt action too, but I use 1/56 from the Worlord folks. I almost did 1/35 though, then thought the company supporting the game is really doing well at making all the kits, so I stayed 1/56.

The finecast issue was a real double edge sword for me. The detail is better, but the fact that I use them as a game piece and they are fragile out weighed the benefit IMHO.

I think the biggest issue is the cultural differences between GW and the USA. I have been told by so many Brits that we Americans are "just too damn earnest." Having lived all around the world has made me appreciate this and how I see the hobby. Also, when people complain about prices and how GW is only interested in profits, I remind them that it is a game with toys and the amount of money people set down for PS and Xbox is really mammoth in comparison. Not to mention, when the new GW stuff is out, you can still use your old stuff, when the new game system comes out, you will be starting over.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As much as I hate Finecast (have never and will never buy anything in that medium), I still see it's financial merits when I see what they think we should pay for the new plastic models. They claim pewter was far too expensive to produce things in, but then they price the new plastic models at approx. twice what they would be at in metal. I'm pretty sure they think we are all drooling idiots, willing to pay any price they put out there.

I mean c'mon. The new plastic Space marine commander is $30US for the equivalent of the commander from the Assault on Black Reach set. Good....God....

I don't think that the problem with pewter was that it was too expensive, per se. The problem is that the price of metal is too volatile. You buy what you need one month, make projections for ROI, then the price jumps and all of a sudden your projections go out the window. This is the problem that everybody has been having with metal.

As for the incredibly high cost of the single plastic minis, I'm sure that the thinking from their end is that the tooling for one mini is expensive, they aren't going to sell near as many Librarians as they do boxes of tactical marines so the price needs to reflect the fact that it needs to be able to make back its tooling costs in a reasonable period of time.

Of course, that doesn't change the perceived value of the piece - which is not $30. At least with Finecast people had a sense that the material and process being used to create the model was somehow more expensive than plastic or metal - which gave it a higher perceived value (crappy casting notwithstanding). People just don't see polystyrene minis the same way.

It's pretty public knowledge that Finecast is a stopgap measure until they can go all plastic.

 Eilif wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah but its all ass backwards.

Pewter libby was $18

Then finecast $19

Then plastic $35?

What the crap is that about? Cheaper material double the price?

Meh,
It was ass backwards when they were selling the Librarian for $18. At this point GW pricing just offers you differing degrees of bass-ackwardness.

Out of curiosity though are you referring to the upcoming librarian with the skull-face cherub familiar. A friend of mine mentioned it, but we weren't sure what material it was made of.

I am, and he is plastic and $35 CAN

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As much as I hate Finecast (have never and will never buy anything in that medium), I still see it's financial merits when I see what they think we should pay for the new plastic models. They claim pewter was far too expensive to produce things in, but then they price the new plastic models at approx. twice what they would be at in metal. I'm pretty sure they think we are all drooling idiots, willing to pay any price they put out there.

I mean c'mon. The new plastic Space marine commander is $30US for the equivalent of the commander from the Assault on Black Reach set. Good....God....

Well there are enough Drooling idiots that will purchase everything GW makes no matter the price