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I am curious how the other C:SM players out there have been doing with the codex in 6th Ed. Have you guys been winning your games lately? I do ALRIGHT, but I'd say I am about 50% wins right now (most losses are to new codexes), as opposed to about 90% from last edition. The tanks seem to be near useless in my experience, all transports seem to do for me is give opponents first blood, and the troops in general seem lackluster.

So the question I'm asking is how have other people been doing? Have you been winning against the newer codexes consistently? Are you guys looking forward to the new codex to make marines viable again? Am I just doing everything completely wrong in the new ed?

I wanted to ask this prior to the new release, because i'm curious about how strong the army is and I will be curious to see how it changes.

I clean clocks. I win about 80-90% of my games, and from what I've seen of the new 'dex, it's going to be a case of the rich getting richer. I play a Salamanders Drop Pod army, and this edition has been pretty good to me so far. The grenades rules are pretty awesome, truth be told, and have done a whole lot of good for me.

I definitely see the benefit of multiple drop pods, my sternguard are consistently effective. I only have one though, and would surely benefit from more. I also play with no special characters, maybe that would help.

Guess i'm the only person with this issue? It seems to me that theres not really a stand-out unit for the space marines, and they are all a bit expensive, so I usually cant take a devastator squad, a tactical squad, and an assault squad to meet whatever roles I might need them to fill.

I get outshot by Tau, out melee'd by monstorous creatures and a number of other races, and generally feel second class, but maybe it's my bad rolls as well. I've had a number of situations where things SHOULD have gone my way, and the dice had something else to say....

Oh well, maybe i'll have more luck with the new codex.

If you're wanting units that perform well consistently, then in the previous edition I can say that Sternguard, Tactical Marines, and Assault Terminators with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers were easily the work horses of my army. (Honestly, once you mix Vulcan and some dedicated transports into the mix, you've got all you need right there.) Don't know how they'll hold up with the new 'dex, though.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
I am curious how the other C:SM players out there have been doing with the codex in 6th Ed. Have you guys been winning your games lately? I do ALRIGHT, but I'd say I am about 50% wins right now (most losses are to new codexes), as opposed to about 90% from last edition. The tanks seem to be near useless in my experience, all transports seem to do for me is give opponents first blood, and the troops in general seem lackluster.

So the question I'm asking is how have other people been doing? Have you been winning against the newer codexes consistently? Are you guys looking forward to the new codex to make marines viable again? Am I just doing everything completely wrong in the new ed?

I wanted to ask this prior to the new release, because i'm curious about how strong the army is and I will be curious to see how it changes.

The 5th ed Dex was my favourite of that edition for many reasons, but the biggest is the fact that the Marines had an answer for everything.

I've seen some really cheesy 6th ed Tau and Eldar lists fold to the 5th ed book just because Marines had the most balanced book and it rewarded a good player with a great gaming experience.

While this in no means is a frequent occurrence or easy feat, it was possible for the Marine Codex to beat nearly any 6th ed book.

I bought the New Dex today and I like it as much as the last. It had big boots to fill for me and Cruddace has done a great job of keeping the balance while adding in some great new stuff.

Marines still have major weaknesses though... 3+ saves are easy to ignore, Marine armies are also quite small... Etc.

Yes there is some cheese... Devastator Centurions with Grav Cannons, Amps and ML for one, are incredibly OP, but thankfully have a huge price tag.

The old favourites are still in the book, like Bike Armies (which are very very powerful in this book with the White Scars rules) and new ones like Honour Guard armies, which sound good, but I think the jury is still out on.

While I didn't field a vanilla Marine army in 5th (Orks, GK and Deathwing instead), I certainly want to now.

I was very successful with the 5th edition Codex: Space Marines in 6th edition. The 6th edition Codex looks like it will make my armies more or less strictly better. I anticipate great success.

You guys must not be playing many skilled players.

I think the new C:SM codex basically sucks. Tau and Eldar are going to shoot it off table just like what is happening right now. Remember that once you drop in, your marines are then footsloggers, ie dead men.

 Fulcrum wrote:
You guys must not be playing many skilled players.

Sounds like the sort of thing a bad player would say to explain how someone else could be using the same army successfully...

Martel732 wrote:
I think the new C:SM codex basically sucks. Tau and Eldar are going to shoot it off table just like what is happening right now. Remember that once you drop in, your marines are then footsloggers, ie dead men.

While I don't share your opinion on the book, I do agree that Marines are easy to kill.

I think Marines are quite fragile in the meta right now and are going to need a great deal of finesse to play in the top tiers vs the Xenos and Heretic 6th ed books.

Eldar, Tau and some CSM lists have crazy amounts of answers for 3+ saves.

Yes, which means this book sucks, as it does absolutely nothing to change that.

The anti-air tanks needed to be upgrades to the Rhino.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, which means this book sucks, as it does absolutely nothing to change that.

The anti-air tanks needed to be upgrades to the Rhino.

Thats like saying the Tau book sucks because it did nothing to change the fact they are bad at cc.

How do you think they could have changed the Marine army?

Martel732 wrote:
some CSM lists have crazy amounts of answers for 3+ saves.

Codex: Heldrake is pretty overpowered.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines is pretty bad though.

 Nitros14 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
some CSM lists have crazy amounts of answers for 3+ saves.

Codex: Heldrake is pretty overpowered.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines is pretty bad though.

Totally agree on both points.

Heldrake Spam can be countered by a savvy player.

Get into CC and those Drakes will be useless.

Yeah but if its CC with plague marines, now your CC troops are useless.

But your guys are not dead from the Baleflamer and you're still contesting objectives and causing some dmg. It's called mitigating losses.

You'll probably be outnumbering the Plague Marines too so hopefully, more attacks.

Not only that... I hear that Grav Weapons eat Plague Marines and Centurions laugh at Baleflamers.

This new codex is not as 2 dimensional as a lot of people think it is.

"It sucks cuz x army can destroy z unit" is not a valid argument when there are answers and tactics to just about any situation.

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, which means this book sucks, as it does absolutely nothing to change that.

The anti-air tanks needed to be upgrades to the Rhino.

Thats like saying the Tau book sucks because it did nothing to change the fact they are bad at cc.

How do you think they could have changed the Marine army?

Space marines need a better transport option, maybe something fast, or something AV12, or another assault/opentop vehicle. Just anything that can give them both durability & speed & doesn't cost 250 or crumple like a tin can(rhino). Maybe something to help them get into CC. Make the ubiquitous heavy bolter better(why do only scouts get hellfire shells?). Reduce the points cost of the LR, predator & dread to make them worth their points. Open up the weapon options so anyone can get grav-cannons or let assault squads take grav-rifles/melta/plasma guns, reduce the points cost of plasma/grav pistols. Allow mixed units of terminators & make them cheaper. Maybe give us a tank with grav weapons, or landspeeders. I'm sure I can think of more but these are just off the top of my head.

Also giving more models the chance to get locator beacons would be great. O 1 more, make Chaplains elite & make them more useful or reduce their points cost.

 Fulcrum wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, which means this book sucks, as it does absolutely nothing to change that.

The anti-air tanks needed to be upgrades to the Rhino.

Thats like saying the Tau book sucks because it did nothing to change the fact they are bad at cc.

How do you think they could have changed the Marine army?

Space marines need a better transport option, maybe something fast, or something AV12, or another assault/opentop vehicle. Just anything that can give them both durability & speed & doesn't cost 250 or crumple like a tin can(rhino). Maybe something to help them get into CC. Make the ubiquitous heavy bolter better(why do only scouts get hellfire shells?). Reduce the points cost of the LR, predator & dread to make them worth their points. Open up the weapon options so anyone can get grav-cannons or let assault squads take grav-rifles/melta/plasma guns, reduce the points cost of plasma/grav pistols. Allow mixed units of terminators & make them cheaper. Maybe give us a tank with grav weapons, or landspeeders. I'm sure I can think of more but these are just off the top of my head.

Also giving more models the chance to get locator beacons would be great.

I can see some of your points.

Well... Fast rhinos and Razorbacks are sole property of the Blood Angels and no, it doesnt work for them. They still have to get out to do anything good. So that's one turn of death. Marines also do not have open topped transports. It's a complete antithesis to the Marine fluff and flavour in game.

Can agree with the Heavy Bolter opinion.

I don't think the Land Raiders need a reduction in points. I used them in my DW list and found the Crusaders are basically a Tactical Squad that shields and moves my guys to where they need to go.

The regular Predator is a fairly priced tank. The Las variant is not and should come down in price.

I agree with the Dread opinion. I like Dreads a lot, but I never take them cuz they suck in anything bigger than 1000 point games.

As for mixed units of Terminators, only DW and to a point, SW get those. I played DW for two editions so I know it works, but again... Fluff and flavour.

Some good points there though.

My biggest gripe with the new codex is point costs -- especially with Tac marines.

The costs of bodies went down, but their equipment all went up. Net result: It all costs about the same, and they still suffer from the same fragility as before. It's still 220 points for a Melta, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta squad in a Drop Pod (I play Salamders) as it was in the previous codex.

We have a lot of powerful tools, but in order to bring them, we have to break the bank -- limiting the rest of our list.

Tac marines became a pretty poor option when the new Tau, Eldar, and CSM books came out and not much changed that in the new codex. They became cheaper at the cost of reduced firepower and still die all the same. Maybe the troop choice will start shifting to Scouts more. They are cheaper, die pretty much the same (3+/4+ are essentially the same against Eldar), end up getting better cover saves through Camo cloaks and got a new dedicated transport.

GO SCOUT LISTS!

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
You guys must not be playing many skilled players.

Sounds like the sort of thing a bad player would say to explain how someone else could be using the same army successfully...

Gets an exalt for sounding like a very accurate assessment.

But now you can toss out 3 5 man tac pods and 3 ten man stern pods and then a master with 9 honor guard in a 7 th pod. That's one heck of and alpha. I can still shoe horn in a talon and a raven too. Not too shabby.

If you think the predator is fairly priced go try & trade it for your buddies WS in a game, or a vendetta, or an ani-barge, etc... The space marine vehicle options are sub par when compared to any other codex. Well maybe not sisters, but they don't really have a codex :(. As for the LR, I'd much rather have an AV 13 or 14 assault vehicle with no weapons whatsoever for the price of a lc pred.

The AC Pred with HB is a pretty good infantry killer and the AC with LCD sponsons is a competent vehicle hunter for its points.

It's not the best in slot, but I wouldn't say it's bad.

It would be a heck of a lot better if you could actually move & still shoot effectively. It's slow, static, & puts out less effective firepower than any other armies battle tanks. Of course that's just my opinion.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
I am curious how the other C:SM players out there have been doing with the codex in 6th Ed. Have you guys been winning your games lately? I do ALRIGHT, but I'd say I am about 50% wins right now (most losses are to new codexes), as opposed to about 90% from last edition. The tanks seem to be near useless in my experience, all transports seem to do for me is give opponents first blood, and the troops in general seem lackluster.

So the question I'm asking is how have other people been doing? Have you been winning against the newer codexes consistently? Are you guys looking forward to the new codex to make marines viable again? Am I just doing everything completely wrong in the new ed?

I'm sorry but, what..?
Your win rate is 50% and that means that marines were not viable? The codes is only 'viable' if it has 90% win rate?
50% should be the 'go to' percentage because it means basically that you have even fight. Less is bad, no questions here, but much more means one of two things (or both):
- your codex is better,
- you're way above your opponents in skill
I guess luck could also factor in but let's drop this one. Why would you want to go into the rolfstomp-fest of almost always winning?

If my post sounds too aggressive I'm sorry, it's definitely not meant to. I'm just really surprised.

Even with 3rd edition BA, I didn't have a 90% win rate.

A super high rate loss rate against Tau/Eldar make the marines not viable.

 Macok wrote:

 AtariAssasin wrote:
I am curious how the other C:SM players out there have been doing with the codex in 6th Ed. Have you guys been winning your games lately? I do ALRIGHT, but I'd say I am about 50% wins right now (most losses are to new codexes), as opposed to about 90% from last edition. The tanks seem to be near useless in my experience, all transports seem to do for me is give opponents first blood, and the troops in general seem lackluster.

So the question I'm asking is how have other people been doing? Have you been winning against the newer codexes consistently? Are you guys looking forward to the new codex to make marines viable again? Am I just doing everything completely wrong in the new ed?

I'm sorry but, what..?
Your win rate is 50% and that means that marines were not viable? The codes is only 'viable' if it has 90% win rate?
50% should be the 'go to' percentage because it means basically that you have even fight. Less is bad, no questions here, but much more means one of two things (or both):
- your codex is better,
- you're way above your opponents in skill
I guess luck could also factor in but let's drop this one. Why would you want to go into the rolfstomp-fest of almost always winning?

If my post sounds too aggressive I'm sorry, it's definitely not meant to. I'm just really surprised.

Sorry, maybe I wasnt clear. I suppose my question is that if I was at 90% when I was starting out, and presumably I learned something and hopefully my tactics got better, then why would my win ratio sink so much (against the newer codexes). And I think I may have overestimated, i'd say my 50% wins is more like 50% ties. I am also comparing my ratings to the other people who tend to win about 90% of their games (chaos daemons/tau).

But the points that everybody else has made have been my experience as well. All the units are not as effective as other armies versions, and I dont have enough points to bring a dev/assault/tactical squad for the rocks paper scissors.

However, looking at the new codex I did manage to get some more flexibility with the reduced points, but at the cost of less toys. Haven't played the new codex yet so we shall see.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sounds like the sort of thing a bad player would say to explain how someone else could be using the same army successfully...

You would be 100% right, if not for the fact that all major GTs are flooded with Tau, Tau/Eldar, Eldar/Tau, Eldar, and Chaos Daemons in the winners' brackets. There's been a grand total of 3 C:SM finalists spread throughout the greater-than-3 amount of tournaments, and each one has used allies and scouts over tactical marines. It really says a lot.

Plus, let's be honest. Saying you have a 90% win record is like saying "I manage to get 90% of the candy I try and steal from babies. Look, I'm really good at this, look at the success rate!"

I agree that if you're winning a big majority of your games, that means that you're not really competing (because competition means that you have a serious chance of losing), and if you're not really competing, that means the wins you get are rather worthless. Just like the "win" of candy after stealing it from a baby.

And Helldrakes are completely counterable by MEq armies. Bring a few good guns and learn how displacement works, and you shouldn't have overwhelmingly serious problems with them.

... especially now that SM has dedicated anti-air.