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I don't care about interceptor. I just want more dakka for Wave Serpents and Helldrakes. If I could make my Rhinos actually do something to Wave Serpents for a surcharge, I would do it in a heartbeat.

With the absurd amount of dakka a Wave Serpent has, coupled with being immortal, I don't think an AA gun on an AV 11 Rhino is nuts.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care about interceptor. I just want more dakka for Wave Serpents and Helldrakes. If I could make my Rhinos actually do something to Wave Serpents for a surcharge, I would do it in a heartbeat.

With the absurd amount of dakka a Wave Serpent has, coupled with being immortal, I don't think an AA gun on an AV 11 Rhino is nuts.

I'm fairly certain you were one of those complaining when Night Scythes became impossible to hit annihilation barges that could vomit out a brick of Necrons at the end of the game. As for Rhinos, a skyfire upgrade for razorbacks would probably be a bit more fitting.

I don't understand the Necron reference.

Yeah, I'd settle for it being a razorback upgrade. Anything but a single tank per heavy slot. I'm not picky here, just desperate

Martel732 wrote:
I don't understand the Necron reference.

Yeah, I'd settle for it being a razorback upgrade. Anything but a single tank per heavy slot. I'm not picky here, just desperate

The Night Scythe at first was dismissed as being a meh unit until 6e, where everyone started QQing over it.

As for why a Razorback upgrade would be better...a Transport has to transport stuff, and I don't think there's any room left over to pile in with all the secondary systems needed for those giant guns.

Unless they're clown marines.

Okay. Good enough for me on the Razorback thing.

Pre-flyer rules, the Night Scythe was meh. As was the Vendetta. And the Stormraven was unusable.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. Good enough for me on the Razorback thing.

Pre-flyer rules, the Night Scythe was meh. As was the Vendetta. And the Stormraven was unusable.

The Vendetta was still seen as undercosted for what it did. It became super ridiculous with the Flier rules.

Anyway I'll try some rules for skyfire/interceptor upgrades on lascannon/assault cannon/autocannon (also a house rule invention) Razorbacks and see how well they work.

Martel732 wrote:
Marine shooting is not very good. It's mediocre to decent, because the ways the marines have to field their heavy weapons are not nearly as good as the Eldar or Tau. Also, marines still have a firepower cap because of model count.

I agree... But I think there are ways to mitigate important areas of the shooting phase with rerolls.

Tigurius for UM is a boon to just about every unit and has access to Prescience. This works wonders with that one shot cannon on the AA tank.

As for non UM armies, there are some areas of Twin Linked that are dotted around and the IF CT is also not bad.

It's not a great fix, but it's better than nothing.

Puscifer wrote:
This works wonders with that one shot cannon on the AA tank.

Am i miss reading this? i though the hunter was Heavy 1 not a oneshot. aka you can have a bunch of savant locked missiles flying all over the place as the game continues.

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. Good enough for me on the Razorback thing.

Pre-flyer rules, the Night Scythe was meh. As was the Vendetta. And the Stormraven was unusable.

The Vendetta was still seen as undercosted for what it did. It became super ridiculous with the Flier rules.

Anyway I'll try some rules for skyfire/interceptor upgrades on lascannon/assault cannon/autocannon (also a house rule invention) Razorbacks and see how well they work.

Really? Yeah three TL lascannons for what the Vendetta charges is a little nuts in even 5th. But at least it could be targeted by other lascannons.

 Desubot wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
This works wonders with that one shot cannon on the AA tank.

Am i miss reading this? i though the hunter was Heavy 1 not a oneshot. aka you can have a bunch of savant locked missiles flying all over the place as the game continues.

I meant one shot per turn. My bad.

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marine shooting is not very good. It's mediocre to decent, because the ways the marines have to field their heavy weapons are not nearly as good as the Eldar or Tau. Also, marines still have a firepower cap because of model count.

I agree... But I think there are ways to mitigate important areas of the shooting phase with rerolls.

Tigurius for UM is a boon to just about every unit and has access to Prescience. This works wonders with that one shot cannon on the AA tank.

As for non UM armies, there are some areas of Twin Linked that are dotted around and the IF CT is also not bad.

It's not a great fix, but it's better than nothing.

I've been using prescience on BA for months now, and there's nothing potent enough in the marine lists that causes enough damage for prescience to really pay off. Back when warwalkers needed guide, that was a unit that really cashed in on that effect. I find it's actually best to prescience my assault teams so they get rerolls on bolt pistols and all their CC swings. If they live long enough. It works greats against other BA and C:SM and Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Puscifer wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
This works wonders with that one shot cannon on the AA tank.

Am i miss reading this? i though the hunter was Heavy 1 not a oneshot. aka you can have a bunch of savant locked missiles flying all over the place as the game continues.

I meant one shot per turn. My bad.

Which is effectively .6667 shots per turn against a Helldrake.

No problems mate. I think the hunter should be fine at lower points where they may be only 1 or two flyers floating around.

Iv been debating missile devs with flakk at imperial fist chap tactics for tank hunter. i think it should work generally well per turn and properly placed should be fine against hell turkeys.

Flakk missiles are not particularly effective against Helldrakes. None of the STR 7 AP 4 weapons are. You can't attrition them down nearly as quickly as Stormravens or Vendettas. And you are on the clock, because they are barbequeing your scoring units. Or the devs themselves.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. Good enough for me on the Razorback thing.

Pre-flyer rules, the Night Scythe was meh. As was the Vendetta. And the Stormraven was unusable.

The Vendetta was still seen as undercosted for what it did. It became super ridiculous with the Flier rules.

Anyway I'll try some rules for skyfire/interceptor upgrades on lascannon/assault cannon/autocannon (also a house rule invention) Razorbacks and see how well they work.

Really? Yeah three TL lascannons for what the Vendetta charges is a little nuts in even 5th. But at least it could be targeted by other lascannons.

It is perhaps the greatest twist of irony that the Vendetta got super buffed...

Only for the meta to alter and ironically, take away all the metal bawkses it would have been ideal for preying on.





Of course somehow this flying dumpster of a transport with guns slapped on it routinely defeats dedicated air superiority craft like the Crimson Hunter and Storm Talon.

Yeah, but those lascannons still are good against Wraithknights, Riptides, teqs, centurions, Night Scythes, helldrakes, the list goes on. The Vendetta is still a baller vehicle for sure. It's better than anything in the new space marine codex, lol.

I think there is some merit to them. especially with a ADL quad. having the sarge on it gives you 8 st 7 ap 4 shots. half being interceptor and all having tank hunter.

Its something i will try out as i build more models.

But 8 shots should be more than enough.

I'm thinking of taking one Hunter and up to two Stormtalons for Drakespam duty.

It's about as good as you'll get for AA in a SM army.

You can't really take another AA Tank as it'll be a waste of a HS slot, which you may want for TFC and something else.

Also, you'll be screwed in games without flyers by taking more than one AA Tank.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, but those lascannons still are good against Wraithknights, Riptides, teqs, centurions, Night Scythes, helldrakes, the list goes on. The Vendetta is still a baller vehicle for sure. It's better than anything in the new space marine codex, lol.

As I said, this unaerodynamic dump truck in spehss



Is somehow a better air superiority craft than this.



Piloted by people who focus their entire lives on air superiority.

Allow me to indulge in my Doctor who fanboyism.

Martel732 wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marine shooting is not very good. It's mediocre to decent, because the ways the marines have to field their heavy weapons are not nearly as good as the Eldar or Tau. Also, marines still have a firepower cap because of model count.

I agree... But I think there are ways to mitigate important areas of the shooting phase with rerolls.

Tigurius for UM is a boon to just about every unit and has access to Prescience. This works wonders with that one shot cannon on the AA tank.

As for non UM armies, there are some areas of Twin Linked that are dotted around and the IF CT is also not bad.

It's not a great fix, but it's better than nothing.

I've been using prescience on BA for months now, and there's nothing potent enough in the marine lists that causes enough damage for prescience to really pay off. Back when warwalkers needed guide, that was a unit that really cashed in on that effect. I find it's actually best to prescience my assault teams so they get rerolls on bolt pistols and all their CC swings. If they live long enough. It works greats against other BA and C:SM and Orks.
e.

Sternguard? or are we only talking about BA?

Kain wrote:Of course somehow this flying dumpster of a transport with guns slapped on it routinely defeats dedicated air superiority craft like the Crimson Hunter and Storm Talon.

Obviously they need to stay at altitude where they can superioritize the air, and stay out of 40K where all the aircraft fly around at like 50kph and are easy targets.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kain wrote:Of course somehow this flying dumpster of a transport with guns slapped on it routinely defeats dedicated air superiority craft like the Crimson Hunter and Storm Talon.

Obviously they need to stay at altitude where they can superioritize the air, and stay out of 40K where all the aircraft fly around at like 50kph and are easy targets.

As someone who's been in the military, if a Blackhawk with rockets on it's sides shot down an F-22, you'd probably be going "What the feth?" right?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kain wrote:Of course somehow this flying dumpster of a transport with guns slapped on it routinely defeats dedicated air superiority craft like the Crimson Hunter and Storm Talon.

Obviously they need to stay at altitude where they can superioritize the air, and stay out of 40K where all the aircraft fly around at like 50kph and are easy targets.

Hahaha, exactly!

Puscifer wrote:
I'm thinking of taking one Hunter and up to two Stormtalons for Drakespam duty.

It's about as good as you'll get for AA in a SM army.

You can't really take another AA Tank as it'll be a waste of a HS slot, which you may want for TFC and something else.

Also, you'll be screwed in games without flyers by taking more than one AA Tank.

Yeah. I'm looking at running assault marines in my FA slot. Because I have BA models. If I even use this codex. Which I might not. But maybe I will just to get the HTH scouts in storms. Because that's slicker than anything in the BA codex. FML.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marine shooting is not very good. It's mediocre to decent, because the ways the marines have to field their heavy weapons are not nearly as good as the Eldar or Tau. Also, marines still have a firepower cap because of model count.

I agree... But I think there are ways to mitigate important areas of the shooting phase with rerolls.

Tigurius for UM is a boon to just about every unit and has access to Prescience. This works wonders with that one shot cannon on the AA tank.

As for non UM armies, there are some areas of Twin Linked that are dotted around and the IF CT is also not bad.

It's not a great fix, but it's better than nothing.

I've been using prescience on BA for months now, and there's nothing potent enough in the marine lists that causes enough damage for prescience to really pay off. Back when warwalkers needed guide, that was a unit that really cashed in on that effect. I find it's actually best to prescience my assault teams so they get rerolls on bolt pistols and all their CC swings. If they live long enough. It works greats against other BA and C:SM and Orks.
e.

Sternguard? or are we only talking about BA?

BA have Sternguard. But if you pod them, you can't cast prescience that turn.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, let's be honest. Saying you have a 90% win record is like saying "I manage to get 90% of the candy I try and steal from babies. Look, I'm really good at this, look at the success rate!"

I'd be pretty worried about how OP babies were if they managed to knock out a grown man trying to steal candy from them.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, let's be honest. Saying you have a 90% win record is like saying "I manage to get 90% of the candy I try and steal from babies. Look, I'm really good at this, look at the success rate!"

I'd be pretty worried about how OP babies were if they managed to knock out a grown man trying to steal candy from them.

Cmon man, dont derail things. If you wanna argue that babies need to be nerfed please start a thread.

<3

You guys are not seeing enough mythbusters, its apparently quite hard to steal candy from babies.

They tend to start crying and then you feel guilty and let it go.

I apologize if this question is a bit off topic, but I've read that heavy weapon upgrades for tactical terminators (as opposed to regular tactical marines) now cost less. Is that true?

And is that also true that upgraded weapons on the land speeder are cheaper as well?

Maybe, but they still can't take enough heavy weapons to matter much.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Also, why marine players keep crying for assault transports?
You are not an assault army, accept it.
C:SM is a hybrid army, assaulting the shooty and shooting the assaults. you can never truly master any one aspect, but you will be decent in both without even trying.

Oh sorry, I was under the impression that my Black Templars were supposed to be about close combat, my bad.

Black Templars were better in assault, but they were never ALL OUT ASSAULT, THROW AWAY YOUR BOLTERS