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ansacs wrote:How many humans does it take to get to the center of a...er, make a space marine?

As has already been mentioned, this answer depends both on the population (genetic compatibility, susceptability to hypnotic suggestion) of the planet and on how well a Chapter managed to preserve its technological and medical knowledge.

For example, the extremely primitive people on the Fleshtearers' homeworld of Cretacia are said to possess an unusual degree of genetic compatibility to the creation process, and according to WD #251 "only a small percentage of them reject the genetic modifications that make a Space Marine superhuman, while their simple minds are easily adapted to the mental conditioning all Space Marines undergo", which means you could turn almost the entire world into Space Marines. However, as fans familiar with this Chapter know, the degenerated state of the native people and their cannibalistic traditions, in combination with the Chapter's defective geneseed means that the Fleshtearers are still doomed.

Likewise, as the entire Imperium suffers from a general decline in technological knowledge, the creation process itself has become increasingly mystified and debased, more tradition than actual science, which increases the likelihood of implant malfunction and/or the death of the subject. The degree of how much this has affected successful recruitment is different amongst all Chapters, reflecting the success (or failure) of their Apothecaries to preserve knowledge and expertise across the millennia.

For further reading, White Dwarf issue #247 had an Index Astartes article about the creation of Space Marines; an online backup is available here.

ansacs wrote:If the space marine candidates all die from the process could it be cost practical considering these individuals are usually hive gangers, deathworld savages, and in general people with little discipline who would commit violent crimes if not controlled? ie they are not useful for IG recruits and not useful members of IoM society.
If not cost practical as a replacement for prison then would these individuals be worth less than conscript training, flak armour, and lasgun? ie are they worth less than IG equipment?

It could certainly be argued that one of the basic requirements for Space Marine recruitment (mental condition) simultaneously makes an individual less valuable to the Imperial Guard. On the other hand, not all Guard regiments are built around discipline, and when you have the Munitorum recruit from a backwater world (Attilan Rough Riders) or from hive gangs (Necromundan Spiders), you will end up with a formation that reflects those qualities in some way anyways, and hopefully be able to use such qualities to their advantage by adapting their tactics - the Savlar Chem-Dogs, for example, are said to be undisciplined, yet excellent skirmishers and tunnel fighters. The Guard does not even attempt to select only the most disciplined and most skilled recruits from across the galaxy, it simply tithes from every single world not exempted from this obligation by Imperial decree.

Similarly, it should be pointed out that Space Marine recruitment schemes are highly erratic and heavily influenced by superstition and Chapter culture. Whilst a lot of Chapters seem to hold contests to select the strongest candidates from amongst the pool of potential recruits, you also have practices where the Space Marines take the most skilled artisan, such as the Salamanders with their blacksmithing tradition. Likewise, the Ultramarines recruit from eight seemingly very civilised worlds, which also raise regiments of capable and disciplined PDF occasionally seconded to the Imperial Guard. That the indoctrination works on people with such mental qualities is probably a testament to the Ultramarines' preservation of technology.

Either way, as chromedog mentioned, "life is cheap". When Imperial commanders can get away with clearing mine fields by throwing bodies at it, then the Space Marines occasionally taking a bunch of people won't be of interest to anyone in the entire galaxy. More critical might be that the average Space Marine Chapter tends to hog an entire planet that could be tithed, regardless of how many people they actually recruit.

piprinx wrote:The main thing I've always wondered for marines though, is the inherent organ loss attrition for scouts. A mature progenoid gland in a marine creates two gene seed sets, a gene seed set is used to grow/clone a complete set of space marine organs. Each time a scout dies having received some of the space marine organs, those are lost, and require a new set of organs to be grown from a gene seed. At some point, some chapter must have had basic implant organ shortages from this attrition, but it's never been touched upon.

A Chapter can grow as many implants as it may like - the only thing they can't just grow in a tube is the geneseed itself, which is required to clone the implants and which has to be cultured on the Marines themselves. When a Scout dies, his gene-seed should be harvested by an Apothecary in the same manner as it is usually harvested from fully-fledged Space Marines, thus preserving it for later use.

The only two reasons the Imperium "tithes" a percentage of a Chapter's geneseed is to monitor its purity as well as to enable the creation of entirely new Chapters - the confiscated geneseed does not act as a sort of bank that can be tapped, which is why a Chapter may well "become extinct" should it lose too much of its geneseed. A fate currently awaiting the Celestial Lions.

Check the Index Astartes link above for further details from GW's take on the subject, if you like.

piprinx wrote:For a non Wolf example, in the third edition SM codex there was a commentary on a few recruits who were going through the implant process. One stood out above the rest in terms of close combat prowess and in the early logs (It was done as an apothecary med report) it was noted he would go far in the chapter.

Ah! Indeed, this is an excellent bit of fluff - very interesting (and somewhat creepy) to read.
I wondered which source it was in as it's been years since I saw it. I remember it also mentioned the Marines testing their recruits by letting them operate a bolter. Considering we're talking about 10 year olds, this probably says a lot about their physical prowess (or Marine guns are lighter than is commonly believed, but it is probably a mixture of both).

That's why I prefer GW's own writing to the Black Library novels - the gap between Space Marine and normal people is still massive, but not as huge.
Same thing for the roleplaying games - in GW's Inquisitor, everyone uses the same bolters. In FFG's RPGs, Marines get +1 versions with a special rule that renders them pretty much unusable for everyone else (regardless of how strong the other person actually is). I find that a bit ridiculous (are Space Marines not cool enough already?), but of course that is a matter of preferences..

Melissia wrote:Eh, how much it's worth it depends. Space Marines are worth about ten guardsmen, as per the opinion of the Primarchs

Well, one* Primarch. But the 10:1 ratio is also stated in the rulebook's general description.

[edit]*: And I'm fairly sure that was Rogal Dorn, not Guilliman.

Manchu wrote:I don't doubt you read this somewhere (I personally thought the ratio was attributed to the Emperor) but if you think about it ... it does not at all represent what's going on in the fluff.

That depends on the fluff you read - which in turn of course depends on one's personal preferences. Just like I'm sure that there is some novel that has 7.5 feet Marines as VS suggested, even though GW's own descriptions make them clock out at around 7 feet.

That's just the woes and benefits of a "pick what you like canon" where individual incidents are classified as legend and propaganda rather than fact. There are also a number of incidents where Space Marines or CSMs got pwned badly, and considering that the damage of a projectile does not care for who fired it, technology ends up being a huge equaliser. That's why - from what I have read - Space Marines generally focus on surgical strikes and blitzkrieg tactics - to overwhelm their opposition with as much force as possible, because if they get pinned down by a numerically superior enemy with this ratio, they're going to have a bad time.

Melissia wrote:

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:a standard battle brother will kill an entire Ork war band if he's smart and uses hit and run tactics

Not a "standard" battle brother. They die all the time to Orks.

Well, he could refer to the Space Marine videogame. According to its makers, a single Space Marine could defeat a million of Orks!

And these days, I actually believe that "most fluff" does indeed make the Marines that awesome - though that is just because "most fluff" these days comes from Black Library novels rather than GW's own books, and arguably novels that have larger-than-life heroes with plot armour sell better to the fans than the protagonist dying on page 5. This isn't something unique to the Space Marines, either ... it just affects them more because 90% of BL's books are about them. Look at how Gaunt's Ghosts dispatch CSMs by the dozen and we get an idea how Marines might be perceived if most books were about the Imperial Guard.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:In FFG which are one of the best sources of fluff [...]

They are a source of fluff. Whether or not they are the best, or even good, obviously lies in the eye of the beholder. And just because FFG Space Marines are much more impressive than GW's (especially with such interesting and realistic special rules such as sharing the damage of a single lascannon blast across the entire squad so that it may be nullified altogether) does not make them a standard, much like all the other little contradictions in FFG's books have little bearing on what GW writes in their own books.

There's a reason GW fluff describes the Marines are falling back on the Imperial Guard when things get rough.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:They're not more impressive. That's the thing, they just have stats attached. Marines (from all sources) normally tear steel apart with relative ease barehanded. That implies even greater strength than the FFG RPG's
Marines have always been dramatically stronger and tougher than 7'6 780 pound human would imply (which is really friggin tough).
The skin of a marine alone could be equivalent to class 2 Ballistic proof armor. Then add the Black carapace completely covering their body which is made of particularly tough ceramite. Then add stuff like the fused ribcage, and reinforced, thicker bones. Then they have the hundreds of pounds of genetically improved muscle mass. Then we finally add the marine armor.

And what I'm saying is that they have different stats attached.
In GW's Inquisitor RPG, Toughness works in a more realistic way in that it softens injuries, but - unlike with FFG's games - cannot prevent them entirely. Anything that punches through the armour will cause an injury; the target's constitution merely determines how bad or how superficial it will be. This avoids a huge problem with FFG's games -> people, and not only Marines, can actually become more resilient than the armour they wear, and take plasma shots to the unarmoured face with 0 damage. It also avoids shenanigans such as Space Marines becoming entirely invulnerable to lasguns and bolters. Oh, and speaking of: in GW's Inquisitor game, everyone gets the same guns.

You also have to keep in mind that FFG's RPGs are not a balanced ruleset like the 40k tabletop. They are biased "good guys vs bad guys" adventures with rules and stats differing from game to game, and the designers themselves have likened Deathwatch to movies such as 300, which should be telling. Never wondered why a Genestealer in DW has different stats than a Genestealer in Dark Heresy? A simple glance at the player characters' abilities and the mere concept of "Hordes" should also suffice to notice the plot armour that player Marines are given. It's no different from a Black Library novel, really.

If you're really going by FFG material, I suppose you have to ignore a lot of GW's own writings. For example, how could the Sisters of Battle be expected to successfully purge a Marine Chapter if their guns wouldn't be able to harm the enemy?

Once again, we arrive at the realisation that we are all cherrypicking as per our preferences.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Everyone cherrypicks. You ignored the fact that starting FFG marines are actually weaker than GW's standard marines. (tearing apart steel (very weak in the 41st millennium) walls with their bare hands.)

No, I just think you're misrepresenting.
Where did it say that the Marine in the incident you are referring to (can I get an exact source please?) is an average Marine rather than a veteran?
Also, I think you are ignoring various special abilities in DW that grant large bonuses to your rolls, from using Fate Points to triggering your Demeanour to various talents.
Or you could of course simply roll well.

What exactly is the test for "tearing apart steel", anyways? I'm sure you are referring to something specific, so can you give us more information?

Can't ... resist ...

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:In a thousand Sons: When a 1k sons captain tests the strength of an demonically possessed Eldar Titan he says "these hands that can rend steel in their palms". He isn't boasting as he actually attempted it.
Ragnar also pulls off the hatch of a Leman Russ so he can toss in a grenade in a SW book.
Lightning Claws are 70 kg and space marines use them like people use rapiers. Brother of the Snake
In Eisenhorn the group is being monitored by a Slaaneshi SM. When they try something he runs through a concrete wall like its not there to get to them.

Oh, you were talking about novels! And here I thought you were referring to Codex fluff instead of your favourite instances of plot armour and superhero legends.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Space Marines live thousands of years without ever weakening, they are supremely superhuman. Is it that hard to understand and accept this?

If you'd actually read GW's own material, you might have noticed they are said to live three times as long as the average Imperial citizen. Or were you aware of that bit and just chose to present exceptions such as the Blood Angels as a standard?

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Space marines are not alone in the fluff to tt nerf. Everyone but imperial guard (puny 'umies) are subject to this to a similar degree as space marines.

Or perhaps you've got it the other way around and it's not a "Fluff to TT nerf", but a "TT to Stories" buff. Why should 40k be different than the real world as far as legends and propaganda are concerned?
This is why I like the unbiased, un-plotarmoured simplicity of a ruleset that just aims to represent all fighting forces in a conflict, rather than a story that just exists because the author wants to tell us how awesome X is.
Or why I prefer general descriptions of how something works as opposed to individual instances that may well be exceptions from the rule.

Matter of taste, though. This being 40k, neither our visions can be "wrong" - I'm just here to clarify that yours is a bit off from what GW's books are saying, as you are apparently trying to justify it with them.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:In a GW source marines take lasgun shots to the head, and only suffer a crack in the black carapace, and a bit of blood loss. You noticed Lynata didn't comment on this? Because that happened in a codex to a raged out standard battle brother.

I didn't comment on it as I saw no need - or rather, have little problem with that. However, you really shouldn't turn a "this Marine shrug off a single hit on his head" into an "every Marine will shrug off every hit to his head", as this would mean you are ignoring a lot of factors such as exact hit location and focus, range (lasguns become less dangerous over distance - as per Codex fluff the blast "dissipates" quickly in atmosphere), or whether or not the Marine has been wounded before or if it's the first hit he takes.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:This is worded in all the codexes so we're supposed to believe they're biologically immortal.

You really need to stop making things up.
#1 This isn't worded anywhere. Absence of evidence is not evidence to the contrary.
#2 Chaplain Cassius is "close to four centuries of age". The SM Codex makes a point of him looking the part. It also establishes Chapter Master Malneus Calgar to be younger than 400 years.
#3 Again, please, read the 6E Rulebook.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:It's ceramite.....

Stop making things up.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Through a helmet......
That's a bit far.
I mean wearing a helmet in real life is enough to stop rifle rounds. With marines they have a lot more to go through than just the helmet.
There's also a MASSIVE difference in resilience of the face with the eyes and nose, and the top of the forehead which was where he got hit.

This isn't "far" by all. It's novel stuff - coincidentally reinforcing the point I was making above, hm? - but it is in line with GW's own material:

The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium.
-2E C:AoD

You'll note how the high end of that range roughly conforms to the chance of a lasgun dropping a Marine in the tabletop. And just to stress it as you seem to apply a great degree of resilience to naked Space Marine skin, this isn't just penetration, this is about injury.

In GW's Inquisitor RPG, a lasgun also has a 16.6% chance to punch through Marine armour (again conforming to the Codex fluff .. could we have a pattern here?) and cause an injury. A Triplex lasgun on higher charge settings will have a better chance.
The only thing a Marine's toughness does in the Inquisitor game is that it lets him take up to 4 of such hits in the head. The first one will stun him a bit, the second makes him move slower, the third causes him to go into system shock. Being a Marine, he'll probably shrug that off, however, so that only the 4th hit will finally drop him.

This is why I like the Inquisitor rules so much better than FFG's - Toughness doesn't render you invulnerable, it just lessens the injuries you do incur, and thus gives your character a chance to soldier on in spite of grievous injuries. Much more realistic, no?

ansacs wrote:Do you think the safety of the process and the recruitment planet state are tied together. ie ultramarines can recruit from civilized worlds as they do not waste thousands of lives to create a SM whereas SW have are creating "wolves" from failures fairly often so a civilized world would have difficulties accepting this?

The actual implantation process is relatively safe - not as good as it used to be, but the failure quota is maybe 1 in 10 or something, though this depends heavily on how good the Chapter managed to preserve the knowledge.

What's more dangerous is how some Chapters choose to test the applicants, as the various different trials may end in deaths amongst the suitable candidates. The nature of these tests (and the risks involved) depends on the individual Chapter - so the Space Marines could recruit more people if they just wanted to, but tradition is often presented as hindrance in 40k, even beyond the SM. That being said, generally they don't appear to have a problem finding new members. Most Chapters are granted recruitment rights to an entire planet of people, and I imagine that the dangers of any tests might well be "tailored" to the percentage of geneseed compatibility amongst its people. If just about everyone can take the implants, as with the Fleshtearers' homeworld, there's no reason why you couldn't impose more dangerous tests on them, as you have a larger pool of applicants to select from.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Every time a space marine appears he does gak like this.

In most of their novels, sure.

As I said before, I believe general descriptions to be more accurate than individual incidents. That's just a personal interpretation, of course, but I hope I don't need to explain that "official averages" may be a better representation than one-offs. Especially considering Marc Gascogne's statement about legends and myths - even Codex fluff isn't reliable.
This is by no means something that applies only to the Space Marines; they just tend to hog the more epic and legendary feats as it fits the overall theme and their role in the setting. Do I believe that Canoness Aspira liberated a hundred worlds with only a thousand Sisters and no further backup just because that's what history says in the Codex? Nope. But it makes for a nice legend.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:I don't know where you're getting this. They don't die of old age at all.

6th Edition rulebook page 181.

"With their genetically enhanced bodies, Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Apparently to you mine is.Because you feel the need to see everything demystified (boring and really idiotic) doesn't mean everyone needs too. A lot of the codex stuff is boring compared to FFG and the novels and FFG are just as canon as anything is. I don't know why you don't comprehend this easy concept but whatever.

What concept, exactly? There is no canon - even one of the writers of the novels you like so much pointed that out.

But no, as difficult as it may be due to my personal preferences, I do not regard your vision as "wrong" - just that you are so utterly insistent on it being the only truth. So I am listing counterpoints to build a contradiction and at least help you see that there are other ways to perceive the setting, such as the one I am adhering to.
If you like Black Library epic stories more than GW's "boring" fluff, go ahead and enjoy it, but keep in mind that other sources say different things, and that it is GW's own material on the subject that is still more of a common ground between all of us than individual novels we may fancy.
Also, you may want to enjoy any BL book that does not feature Space Marines as protagonists.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:I was quoting someone else who stated facts leading to my view, and I explained to him what GW intended us to take from this. Chill out, but seriously your misquoting nourishes me.

I didn't "misquote" - it was you who wrote that, and it is an exact copy of what you wrote.

If you simply fell victim to another poster's claims, that is of course something I can understand. The same things happen/ed to me, and unfortunately a lot of what gets propagated on dakka and other 40k forums is often just flawed hearsay...

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:This was back when space marines where only peak human and 7 ft tall instead of 8 ft tall. It's codex history.

Nope, 2nd Edition was Space Marines as we know them today. The armour details also never were "retconned" in any later source.
And today's Space Marines are still "only" 7 feet tall - in GW's fluff anyways.

ansacs wrote:like SM kill cultists

I can't help but remember the outrage on dakka as White Dwarf published that excerpt of a story about a squad of Space Marines being overrun by a bunch of cultists with autoguns and close combat weapons back when some new novel was released.
Goes to back up the point you/we were making, I guess.

Oh! And I just noticed I forgot to reply to your earlier post ...

ansacs wrote:I was actually referring to the "process" as a whole from start of SM candidate selection to having a SM. I wonder if the savageness or closeness to violence changes the likelihood of a success. This leading to a more thorough selection process being available for the most savage worlds.

Gotcha. Well, it is said that a Chapter invariably adopts some things from the culture of the local people - for example, before they were excommunicated and a purge mission was launched against them, the Sons of Malice began to introduce cannibalistic rites into their Chapter traditions. Supposedly this was something they picked up from the people they were recruiting from. Similarly, I could easily see a Chapter adopt tougher and more dangerous tests/trials if that's what the locals do. And needless to say, someone who is already accustomed to savageness and violence will have an easier time facing such challenges.

Whether or not this has any effect on the surgical part of the induction is probably debatable, but in case of the Fleshtearers ... well, their homeworld was described as "rivaling any deathworld known to man", yet of its people, only a small percentage reject the implanted organs. Coincidence, or connected? Might be worth a few thoughts. Here is the relevant Index Astartes entry.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:No canon means everything is equally canon.

Yes, that is what I have been saying all the time. Feel free to go back to page 1 where I have explicitly stated this.
I'm sorry, but now I have trouble following you. Why do you feel a need to debate something you supposedly agree on? Or did I say something that made you think I don't?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Lynata, your views on Canon become more ridiculous every month.

Care to elaborate? I am operating on what the people writing these books are telling us. What about you?

How is this in any way inconsistent with what I've been saying about "canon" since page 1?

My opinions on the novels and the contradictions they introduce should be widely known by now, and is it really that far-fetched to point out that it is quite normal for novels to have "plot armour" for their protagonists, thereby almost being expected to have them appear much more heroic than other sources of fluff make them out to be?

Me ridiculing various licensed products does not change anything about my "views on canon", so I don't see how the latter would supposedly have changed somehow.

Then I don't see how they could have become "more ridiculous".

What I regard as "the problem" is the insistence on way too many people to treat the various sources as if they would indeed add to a single greater whole, expecting consistency and hard facts, rather than acknowledging the "manual" of how they are to be used, as provided by the various authors.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except even the GW published material has just as many inconsistencies. You're just forgiving of them.

I disagree. The licensed material has many more inconsistencies simply on the basis that you have way more people writing on them.
The more authors you add, all with their own ideas, and - unlike with GW - generally not discussed in a fixed team - the more individual interpretations you'll get.
Sure there have been changes and even mistakes in GW's own material, but to say they have been as numerous as the contradictions between BL novels is an exaggeration that does not hold up to the simple fact that more people equals more visions.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:You constantly look at the novels like they're less canon. You're not at all consistent. The novels are simply meant to expand even if you think they're silly. ( It's fantasy, it's not )

I apologise if my posts somehow came across like that; this was not my intention. It merely grinds my gears when people attempt to use those novels as "evidence" to override something that my preferred material (GW's own writings) is saying.

This is why - contrary to the majority of people engaging in debates like these - many of my posts have me pointing out the differences between the sources by specifically referring to the contradiction (e.g. "Your book may say that, but in GW's fluff [...]") rather than just waltzing in and consistently claiming "this is how it is, end of story". Again I refer you to page 1 where I posted one such disclaimer. Perhaps you've missed it.

TiamatRoar wrote:For the most part, it appears the Imperium at least tries to pretend it values innocent lives a little for moral reasons.

Oh yes, it has to - humanity as a whole is the chosen species, after all. The bloody wars of conquest, the massive efforts spent on holding key worlds in the galactic theatre, everything revolves around saving humanity's place amongst the stars, and ultimately mankind as a whole. So I'd say that the single life, that of the individual soldier or civilian, is worth very little to the Imperium. However, "civilians" as a whole, the population of a city or an entire world, or generally any larger group of people suddenly begin to transcend this individual replaceability and to symbolically stand for "humans" as a whole. You can afford to waste hundreds or thousands of lives in the pursuit of the Imperium's greater good - but at some point, you do have to think about mankind as a whole.

Similarly, even an entire planet can be sacrificed, if this sacrifice is done to help preserve humanity as a species (and as represented by the Imperium of Man).

BlaxicanX wrote:CSM have never been dispatched "by the dozen" in the Ghost's series. The Ghosts have only fought CSM on two separate occasions- in the first novel, where three were killed fighting the combined might of two regiments, and Gareon, where they did indeeed get crapped on in lulzy ways.

I guess I really need to stop blindly trusting the things people claim on dakka. Makes me wonder if that other WD story excerpt with the cultists overrunning a bunch of Astartes was really as the poster described.
But perhaps those GG statements were referring to this Gareon thing? You seem to have read it; perhaps you can expand on what exactly was to "lulzy".

Either way, I maintain that novel protagonists as well as characters have an undeniable tendency to be exactly as strong as required by the story. This isn't even purely a 40k thing, although I have a feeling that it may be stronger in this franchise due to the inherent potential of the equipment used, as well as a perceived "need" to make things "epic".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You have to understand although a half dozen CSM are killed in it they are basically fighting 10 IG Special Characters including at least two that are on par with Sly Marbo if not better. The problem with just saying X number of so-and-so beat X number of So-and-Sos is there's no context. Context is everything.

Oh yeah, but that's my point exactly. Every protagonist in a novel is a special character - it just seems to me as if public perception is a bit skewed because there's (unsurprisingly, given the popularity) so many more Marine novels out there than others. In a way, it almost feels like a "parallel standard" that has been established over years where Black Library has slowly but surely supplanted GW's own fluff. The 8+ meter Marines are a good example of this phenomenon.

But I'll stop here as I'm starting to repeat myself.