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This came up in a previous game and I would like your take on it.

Shooting a unit of CSM Slaanesh bikers and the icon bearer was the closest and died first. Does the icon still grant FnP to any further models that fail their save from the remaining wound pool? I understand that all the shooting from a single unit happens simultaneously. I'd personally say that they can get it for the remainder of that units shooting attack but couldn't find anything that covered this in the rules.

To his credit my brother just took them off and didn't roll for any FnP as soon as the icon bearer was removed but just wanted to check he didn't do himself a disservice.

EDIT: Any page reference provided would be much appreciated.

Wounds are applied sequentially in this edition. If the FNP-giver dies, the squad indeed loses it for the rest of the wounds. (Sorry, I don't have a page number for you.)

All shooting from a single unit is simultaneous.

They would get FNP from the rest of the wounds, but not from any subsequent units that shot at them.

 DeathReaper wrote:
All shooting from a single unit is simultaneous.

They would get FNP from the rest of the wounds, but not from any subsequent units that shot at them.

Shooting is. Wound allocation is not.

I was about to quote Fast Dice, but then realized that while you can group the dice to the saves, you'd have to do the FNP individually.

So yeah, no FNP after the icon dies.

Rigeld is correct on this one. It's one of the many advantageous uses of Precision Shots.

Ok thanks for the input fellas

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
All shooting from a single unit is simultaneous.

They would get FNP from the rest of the wounds, but not from any subsequent units that shot at them.

Shooting is. Wound allocation is not.

and since shooting is simultaneous, the FNP guy is still there until the end of the shooting attack, regardless of when the wound is allocated, so the unit gets FNP from the rest of the wounds, but not from any subsequent units that shot at them.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
All shooting from a single unit is simultaneous.

They would get FNP from the rest of the wounds, but not from any subsequent units that shot at them.

Shooting is. Wound allocation is not.

and since shooting is simultaneous, the FNP guy is still there until the end of the shooting attack, regardless of when the wound is allocated, so the unit gets FNP from the rest of the wounds, but not from any subsequent units that shot at them.

Cannot be true. If it was, he'd be making all the saves for every wound, even the ones past his wound total.
Allocation is a process - you have to resolve the wounds. Removing a model is part of resolving the wound.

Removing a model is part of resolving the wound, but since all shooting is simultaneous FNP can still be used.

A similar situation happens when the guy with the Icon is allocated first in CC at I4 andf dies, the other wounds at I4, since attacks in CC are simultaneous, allocated after the first one at I4 are still eligible for FNP.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Removing a model is part of resolving the wound, but since all shooting is simultaneous FNP can still be used.

Incorrect. Why are you applying the rules of a model after it's been removed, when the rules say otherwise? (eg. BA Blood Chalice ruling)

Q: At what point does a m odel need to be in range of a Blood
Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the bonuses of Furious
Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model
makes its close combat attacks.

This also means that you check to see if FNP is available when you put the bonus to use - ie when the model makes its saves.
Since the model is making its saves after the Apoth has been removed, he cannot use FNP.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Removing a model is part of resolving the wound, but since all shooting is simultaneous FNP can still be used.

Incorrect. Why are you applying the rules of a model after it's been removed, when the rules say otherwise? (eg. BA Blood Chalice ruling)

Q: At what point does a m odel need to be in range of a Blood
Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the bonuses of Furious
Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model
makes its close combat attacks.

This also means that you check to see if FNP is available when you put the bonus to use - ie when the model makes its saves.
Since the model is making its saves after the Apoth has been removed, he cannot use FNP.

Wouldn't this be under mixed saves anyways?


Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit
have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves
method of Wound allocation should always be used for
allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel
No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed
save.”

osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Removing a model is part of resolving the wound, but since all shooting is simultaneous FNP can still be used.

Incorrect. Why are you applying the rules of a model after it's been removed, when the rules say otherwise? (eg. BA Blood Chalice ruling)

Q: At what point does a m odel need to be in range of a Blood
Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the bonuses of Furious
Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model
makes its close combat attacks.

This also means that you check to see if FNP is available when you put the bonus to use - ie when the model makes its saves.
Since the model is making its saves after the Apoth has been removed, he cannot use FNP.

Wouldn't this be under mixed saves anyways?


Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit
have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves
method of Wound allocation should always be used for
allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel
No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed
save.”

Actually what would be better is if someone actually read the entire allocate and remove models section....

emptied wound pool... page 15 bottom right corner "when the wound pool is empty, the shooting attack has been COMPLETELY RESOLVED" emphasis mine!

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
emptied wound pool... page 15 bottom right corner "when the wound pool is empty, the shooting attack has been COMPLETELY RESOLVED" emphasis mine!

Bingo, this is one part that shows it - the other is the Shooting Sequence on page 12, which covers the entire shooting procedure and includes as its last step wound allocation *and* removal of casualties.
I find this very similar to performing Initiative steps in a close combat. Attacks made at a particular Initiative step are considered simultaneous (page 23), and you allocate wounds and remove casualties as part of that - but were that not part of the sequence, you would have moved on and any "dead" models at the same step wouldn't get the opportunity to take their attacks.

We can also draw comparison to networked markerlights. If it were possible for some models' shots to be applied before others, there would be no need to have networked markerlights as opposed to normal ones.

 Super Ready wrote:
Attacks made at a particular Initiative step are considered simultaneous (page 23), and you allocate wounds and remove casualties as part of that - but were that not part of the sequence, you would have moved on and any "dead" models at the same step wouldn't get the opportunity to take their attacks.

You do because the rules say you do.

We can also draw comparison to networked markerlights. If it were possible for some models' shots to be applied before others, there would be no need to have networked markerlights as opposed to normal ones.

You need them because all shooting from one unit is simultaneous. Which means that you can't spend normal markerlights before you shoot them. Network markerlights change that.

It's almost like the rules matter or something.

Right, so my comparisons were bad - mentally scrapping them. Do you have a response to allocating wounds/removing casualties being part of the shooting sequence on page 12? And the wording from page 15?

Not really sure what you're asking for.
You must allocate to the first model.
When it loses its last wound, you must remove the model.
It's demonstrably not a simultaneous action - there's definitely a step by step process.
Once the model that gives FNP is gone, his rule can no longer apply.

I think he is asking for a rules quote.... since others have provided some to back up what they are saying, instead of just repeating the same argument over again...

I think it would be very good of you to actually give one where it says to do what your saying it says.

Which if I am reading it right that you must remove immediately any casualties.

Where as we are seeing from the raw we have given that wound allocation is all part of the shooting phase and is completed all together from one squad.

Page 15. "Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties" or "Allocate Wounds" and "Take Saves & Remove Casualties."

The rules say allocate 1 wound, take saves and remove as a casualty as appropriate. Rinse and Repeat. It is absolutely not simultaneous.

Chrysis wrote:
Page 15. "Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties" or "Allocate Wounds" and "Take Saves & Remove Casualties."

The rules say allocate 1 wound, take saves and remove as a casualty as appropriate. Rinse and Repeat. It is absolutely not simultaneous.

Actually it says take saving throws then allocate unsaved wounds. Thus making it simutaneous. Oh and if your looking for where I am getting that it is the same section and page number but specifically Take saving throws section. Which is the second paragraph.

This actually brings up an interesting situation, in the instance of mixed saves you are right, but if they are all the same save then you are wrong.. hmmm how interesting!

I'll assume you haven't read the sections I indicated then.

For single save groups:
"Next, allocate an unsaved wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit. Reduce that models wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty. Continue allocating unsaved wounds until ..."

Wounds are allocated one by one, and models are removed as soon as they reach 0 wounds. Sequential, not simultaneous.

But then, we were originally talking about Feel No Pain, which by the FAQ means we have to use Mixed armour save rules.

Allocate Wounds:
"First, allocate a wound from the wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit."
Note: "a" wound, not plural.

Take Saves & Remove Casualties:
"The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one ... If it fails, reduce the model's wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty.

Continue allocating wounds to the closest model ..."

A slight variation. Allocate a wound, take a save, remove as a casualty. Rinse and repeat. Again, very clearly sequential allocation and casualty removal rather than simultaneous.

If the FNP granting model is closer to the firer than you, and suffers enough wounds to kill him, he will be removed as a casualty before any wounds are allocated to you. And as he is now dead and gone, you no longer have FNP as you are no longer "in range."

you sir are putting the cart before the horse as it were.

FNP is not a saving throw, it is a special rule, secondly it specifically says in the section right before all your quotes what I quoted before. Which I might as well go over again as you have disregarded it. "First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page16), for each wound beingresolved. Make note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused." This directly conrtadicts what you have put forth, unless of coarse in the case of mixed saves then as I said you are correct when it comes to mixed saves but in all the same saves you are as you have always been incorrect.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
Page 15. "Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties" or "Allocate Wounds" and "Take Saves & Remove Casualties."

The rules say allocate 1 wound, take saves and remove as a casualty as appropriate. Rinse and Repeat. It is absolutely not simultaneous.

Actually it says take saving throws then allocate unsaved wounds. Thus making it simutaneous.

You're forgetting that Mixed saves always applies when there is a character in the unit (BRB FAQ, page 1) or when any model in the unit has FNP (BRB FAQ page 2).

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
This actually brings up an interesting situation, in the instance of mixed saves you are right, but if they are all the same save then you are wrong.. hmmm how interesting!

I'm pretty sure that every instance when order of casualties could affect the rest of the unit, there's either several different saving throws, FNP or a character present in the unit, meaning that mixed saves will be the norm in that case.

In the hypothetical case of non-character model giving some special rule that worked like FNP but was not FNP, you might be right. (Though I'm certain 1that rule would be FAQ'd to use Mixed saves anyway).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
FNP is not a saving throw, it is a special rule,

Which doesn't matter, as having FNP in the unit means using Mixed Saves.

BRB Errata, page 2 wrote:If one or more models in a unit have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves method of Wound allocation should always be used for allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed save.”

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Thirdly, as I said you are correct when it comes to mixed saves but in all the same saves you are as you have always been incorrect.

To be exact, he has always been correct if the example unit has had either a character in it or model with FNP. Which is to say in every example presented so far.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
I think he is asking for a rules quote.... since others have provided some to back up what they are saying, instead of just repeating the same argument over again...

I think it would be very good of you to actually give one where it says to do what your saying it says.

Which if I am reading it right that you must remove immediately any casualties.

Where as we are seeing from the raw we have given that wound allocation is all part of the shooting phase and is completed all together from one squad.

He's quoting pages 12 and 15. I'm doing nothing but repeating those pages.
You're right though - it would've been better to quote the exact phrases, or at least give some indication. It's difficult for me to quote right now, so how about...

Page 15 mixed saves which you must use for units with FNP per the FAQ.

The Mixed Saves rule does say to resolve each group of Wounds separately - but then goes on to say...
"Once one group of Wounds has been resolved, simply move onto the next until the Wound pool is empty." (emphasis mine, of course.)
And as already mentioned, page 15 tells us that the shooting attack is only resolved once the Wound pool is empty - in other words, when all Mixed Saves Wounds groups have been taken care of.

Or, to put it another way - Mixed Saves further splits and complicates how you resolve Wounds and remove casualties. But they all still take place in that step of the sequence as outlined on page 12.

 Super Ready wrote:
The Mixed Saves rule does say to resolve each group of Wounds separately - but then goes on to say...
"Once one group of Wounds has been resolved, simply move onto the next until the Wound pool is empty." (emphasis mine, of course.)
And as already mentioned, page 15 tells us that the shooting attack is only resolved once the Wound pool is empty - in other words, when all Mixed Saves Wounds groups have been taken care of.

Or, to put it another way - Mixed Saves further splits and complicates how you resolve Wounds and remove casualties. But they all still take place in that step of the sequence as outlined on page 12.

Sure, but what's your point?
The FNP model is removed before the wound pool is empty. Further wounds don't have FNP around to benefit from.

The shooting attack is resolved once the wound pool is empty. Who cares? No one asked that question. To completely resolve a wound you have to remove casualties.

Hmm... fair point. I'll agree with you on this one. I'm getting too hung up on the "simultaneous" approach...it's not like you can keep using a front model's superior save if he's already dead.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
you sir are putting the cart before the horse as it were.

FNP is not a saving throw, it is a special rule, secondly it specifically says in the section right before all your quotes what I quoted before. Which I might as well go over again as you have disregarded it. "First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page16), for each wound beingresolved. Make note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused." This directly conrtadicts what you have put forth, unless of coarse in the case of mixed saves then as I said you are correct when it comes to mixed saves but in all the same saves you are as you have always been incorrect.

Doesn't matter. FNP says "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, ..." If you're doing the identical saves method (which as has been pointed out many times doesn't apply due to the FAQ) you still wouldn't be making FNP rolls until after you allocate the wounds, as prior to that point no model has suffered an Unsaved Wound, only the unit has. And as allocation is done one by one, the model granting FNP can still be removed as a casualty before other models get allocated wounds, as removing casualties is tied to wound allocation.

 Super Ready wrote:
Hmm... fair point. I'll agree with you on this one. I'm getting too hung up on the "simultaneous" approach...it's not like you can keep using a front model's superior save if he's already dead.

that is only because you are allocating the wounds to a different model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Hmm... fair point. I'll agree with you on this one. I'm getting too hung up on the "simultaneous" approach...it's not like you can keep using a front model's superior save if he's already dead.

that is only because you are allocating the wounds to a different model.

And when you're allocating the wounds to that different model, is the original model in play or not?