Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

6 units of 10 marines in rhinos with no upgrades comes to 1050

If you run 2 flamer, 2 melta and 2 plasma and a corresponding combi weapon it comes to 1170

That leaves a good amount of room to work in an 1500-1850 list.

With Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics they can lay down a lot of fire, and with Iron Hands the marines and rhinos can stick around a while longer.

Any thoughts on this or is it just going to get nuked by any Tau/Eldar/Helldrake army out there?

don't worry too much on giving up first blood?

Khan can make them get a further 12" of moving around, which would be great for the "rush" part of it.

Ultra marines with tigurius can pack quite a good punch, and sicarius can make one squad better with special rules

Meh, how can anyone care about first blood, it's the penalty for going 2nd for nearly every army out there (barring all drop pod lists)

That is a good idea though, scouts would put you up close really quickly but then all of the White Scars CT is going to waste.

Khan gives 'hit and run', scout, and outflanking.
Those are pretty good options.

 More Dakka wrote:
Meh, how can anyone care about first blood, it's the penalty for going 2nd for nearly every army out there (barring all drop pod lists)

That is a good idea though, scouts would put you up close really quickly but then all of the White Scars CT is going to waste.

You'd still have Hit & Run on your tac squads. Being able to break off any survivors from screamers/IG blobs/gaunts/etc is very very valuable when what you need to be doing is sooting as much as possible.

That is very true good point guys! Khan does make it pretty flexible it seems, and he's a pretty low cost commander to boot.

Adding Scout to all that just sounds stupid fast lol. Rhinos arent assault vehicles so they cant turn 1 assault regardless but they can at least be in position for a turn 2 assault and still fire turn 1.

The other question, would it be smarter to hide in the Rhino that first turn and move 24"/shoot (or go 30" and try to hide behind stuff), or go 18" and disembark everything? Everything can shoot, but everything is in the open now lol.
This is of course assuming the vehicles move 12" for scout movements, which i imagine they do.

Relying on scout moves isn't wise. They're easily countered by several common lists at this point.

We'll you're not relying on it. It's just an option the same as you could outflank with some of the rhinos if it made sense as well. I can think of a few instances where that could come in very handy.

 Kingsley wrote:
Relying on scout moves isn't wise. They're easily countered by several common lists at this point.

Which brings an interesting question, could you tank shock through the infiltrating Kroot with your Scout redeployment? I imagine no, but I don't know for sure.

If it counts as movement I'd say you can, but all normal restrictions apply.

i dont think you can scout within 12" of the enemy

 More Dakka wrote:
If it counts as movement I'd say you can, but all normal restrictions apply.

It is not a movement. It is a redeploy. You redeploy the unit within the allowed distance (6" for most, 12" for vehicles, if I recall correctly). This means no difficult/dangerous terrain rolls, and you can jump over impassible terrain as long as you end in a legal deployment position. Again, this assumes I remember everything correctly, as my book is not directly in front of me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
i dont think you can scout within 12" of the enemy

Sorry, I do believe I forgot about that part.

 tomjoad wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
Meh, how can anyone care about first blood, it's the penalty for going 2nd for nearly every army out there (barring all drop pod lists)

That is a good idea though, scouts would put you up close really quickly but then all of the White Scars CT is going to waste.

You'd still have Hit & Run on your tac squads. Being able to break off any survivors from screamers/IG blobs/gaunts/etc is very very valuable when what you need to be doing is sooting as much as possible.

But just to 1 squad. If you want to scout everyone you need ravenguard.

anonymou5 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Relying on scout moves isn't wise. They're easily countered by several common lists at this point.

Which brings an interesting question, could you tank shock through the infiltrating Kroot with your Scout redeployment? I imagine no, but I don't know for sure.

Certainly not. You can't even get within 12" of them.

I think raven guard are the list to use if you want a rhino wall. Send them forward 12" deployment 12" scout 6" disembark. Let your assault squad/s follow behind the wall.

You could even put a homing/locator beacon on the squad/s and drop a pod or two in as well.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Adding Scout to all that just sounds stupid fast lol. Rhinos arent assault vehicles so they cant turn 1 assault regardless but they can at least be in position for a turn 2 assault and still fire turn 1.

The other question, would it be smarter to hide in the Rhino that first turn and move 24"/shoot (or go 30" and try to hide behind stuff), or go 18" and disembark everything? Everything can shoot, but everything is in the open now lol.
This is of course assuming the vehicles move 12" for scout movements, which i imagine they do.

1. Scout up in the Rhino
2. Move 6" in the movement phase
3. Disembark the passengers 6"
4. shoot something to pieces
5. Flat out the Rhinos in front of your Marines to block LoS
6. Assault turn 2

Solves the "Marines in the open" issue. I've used that with my GK to keep my Purgation squads camped at midfield alive

More Dakka wrote:Meh, how can anyone care about first blood

Whoever has first blood doesn't need to win the game, they just need to force a draw. Then it rolls to secondaries, and you win. Giving away first blood is like handing your opponent a free objective, and it's basically THE way to win on relic and will games. And that's not even considering setting up an army specifically to exploit first blood.

Even ignoring the fact that vehicle explosions still kill space marines, and that emergency disembarkation makes them vulnerable to blast and template wepaons, and that first blood does matter, and that they still cost points for little gain, you still have to contend with one in six missions being kill points, which you're basically handing over to your opponent on a silver platter.

Big risks, questionable gain, if any.

Pass.

it's a debatable point. I don't think SM can easily safeguard against losing first blood in any circumstance unless you go all drop pods.

 Kingsley wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Relying on scout moves isn't wise. They're easily countered by several common lists at this point.

Which brings an interesting question, could you tank shock through the infiltrating Kroot with your Scout redeployment? I imagine no, but I don't know for sure.

Certainly not. You can't even get within 12" of them.

Yeah, I'm an idiot, didn't even think of that.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Adding Scout to all that just sounds stupid fast lol. Rhinos arent assault vehicles so they cant turn 1 assault regardless but they can at least be in position for a turn 2 assault and still fire turn 1.

The other question, would it be smarter to hide in the Rhino that first turn and move 24"/shoot (or go 30" and try to hide behind stuff), or go 18" and disembark everything? Everything can shoot, but everything is in the open now lol.
This is of course assuming the vehicles move 12" for scout movements, which i imagine they do.

1. Scout up in the Rhino
2. Move 6" in the movement phase
3. Disembark the passengers 6"
4. shoot something to pieces
5. Flat out the Rhinos in front of your Marines to block LoS
6. Assault turn 2

Solves the "Marines in the open" issue. I've used that with my GK to keep my Purgation squads camped at midfield alive

How does that block LOS?

Rhinos are neither fast nor skimmer so their flat out is a 6" movement and they cant drive over marines. Youd have to disembark like right outside of the rhino in order to get around the marines with a 6" movement.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Adding Scout to all that just sounds stupid fast lol. Rhinos arent assault vehicles so they cant turn 1 assault regardless but they can at least be in position for a turn 2 assault and still fire turn 1.

The other question, would it be smarter to hide in the Rhino that first turn and move 24"/shoot (or go 30" and try to hide behind stuff), or go 18" and disembark everything? Everything can shoot, but everything is in the open now lol.
This is of course assuming the vehicles move 12" for scout movements, which i imagine they do.

1. Scout up in the Rhino
2. Move 6" in the movement phase
3. Disembark the passengers 6"
4. shoot something to pieces
5. Flat out the Rhinos in front of your Marines to block LoS
6. Assault turn 2

Solves the "Marines in the open" issue. I've used that with my GK to keep my Purgation squads camped at midfield alive

How does that block LOS?

Rhinos are neither fast nor skimmer so their flat out is a 6" movement and they cant drive over marines. Youd have to disembark like right outside of the rhino in order to get around the marines with a 6" movement.

Exactly.

I think Rhino Rush should work. I like the idea of using the Rhinos as a LOS blocking wall to protect assault squads. These shenanigans are multiplied by Combat Squads allowing them to both pack into one Rhino. Honestly I think most of the Chapter Tactics will be beneficial for different reasons.

I also forsee Razorback rushes with 5 man squads carrying Melta/plasma due to the changes in squad composition rules. Although due to that being cost prohibitive perhaps 50/50 Rhinos and Razorbacks ...

Plus, an exploded rhino doesn't block LOS. In either wrecked or exploded form, it does, however, force you to take difficult terrain to move forward the next turn. And if you can't make it due to poor rolling, you'll have to count as assaulting through cover as well.

And 10 tac marines are relatively tough to gain first blood from. They only throw it away if you buy a rhino for them, which is much, much easier to kill.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, an exploded rhino doesn't block LOS. In either wrecked or exploded form, it does, however, force you to take difficult terrain to move forward the next turn. And if you can't make it due to poor rolling, you'll have to count as assaulting through cover as well.

And 10 tac marines are relatively tough to gain first blood from. They only throw it away if you buy a rhino for them, which is much, much easier to kill.

Wrecked vehicles still block LOS and are dangerous terrain as well.

 More Dakka wrote:
it's a debatable point. I don't think SM can easily safeguard against losing first blood in any circumstance unless you go all drop pods.

Until someone shoots your already Immobilized dedicated transport....

First Blood is important, yes. But how vulnerable you are to it, is essentially moot in C:SM -- there's not a lot we can do outside of going first to prevent giving up first blood when you consider our transport options.

AV12 on the pod is a bit better, but still easily lost by little firepower -- and most newer codexes have plenty of firepower to use some on an empty pod without losing it's overall effectiveness.

As the OP noted, throwing down 60 marines in rhinos is not that expensive point wise. It actually gives you quite a few shots, as your marines will probably be in double tap range on turn 2.
The real advantage is that it lets you spare a points for your other units.

Its not a rhino-rush in the 'classic BA' fashion. Instead its rushing up to your opponent then blasting them with a 96 of bolter shots, 6 special weapons, and 6 heavy weapons.

To add to this, you can bring allies for another 20 TACs, you can bring sternguard, etc...

The scout is what makes this work.

 Homeskillet wrote:

1. Scout up in the Rhino
2. Move 6" in the movement phase
3. Disembark the passengers 6"
4. shoot something to pieces
5. Flat out the Rhinos in front of your Marines to block LoS
6. Assault turn 2

Solves the "Marines in the open" issue. I've used that with my GK to keep my Purgation squads camped at midfield alive

I am sure a vehicle cannot Flat Out after disembarking. Can someone check?

They can after disembarking but not after embarking - odd rules i know

I thought this too but it's you cannot tank shock or ram if passengers embark/disembark.