The black mace and taking invuln saves

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Basimpo**

Hello, I recently was in a match where my opponent clobbered my HQ with the black mace in a challenge, and then made the rest of the unit do a toughness test. According to the black maces rules, in the chaos space marine book on page 69, the models take a Toughness test, if they fail, the take a wound with no saves "of any kind allowed"

According to the 6th edition rules FAQ, top right column, it says that invuln saves can always be taken, even when the wound "ignores armor saves"

Which trumps which here?

Thanks for your time!

**rigeld2**

Codex trumps rulebook. No saves of any kind means you cannot make a save.

FNP is still available however.

**grendel083**

There are 3 types of save: Armour, Cover, Invulnerable.
As noted you can take invulnerable when armour saves are not allowed.
The Black Mace however ignores all types of saves.
So non of the above can be taken.

**Basimpo**

Hm, interesting. Based on the wording of the rule in the codex, I was in agreement with you before I re-glanced at the FAQ. After reading the exact wording of the FAQ, and seeing what you say, I still am in agreement with you.

Thanks

**wargamer1985**

However the toughness test wouldnt affect the unit would it since a challenge took place and if I recall correctly for all intents n purposes counts as an independant combat

**rigeld2**

wargamer1985 wrote:
However the toughness test wouldnt affect the unit would it since a challenge took place and if I recall correctly for all intents n purposes counts as an independant combat

You remember incorrectly - it's not an independent combat.
And it would affect the unit, because the rules of the Black Mace are clear that it does.

**grendel083**

The Mace "goes off" at the end of the phase. As mentioned the challenge was over at this point.

Even if the challenge was ongoing, the rest of the unit is still within 3" of the bearer. These aren't attacks caused by the challenge. Unless there's an FAQ I'm missing it should still effect the unit.

**Basimpo**

Ill tell you what, T tests against eldar is killer.

**juraigamer**

An invul save is a save, you cannot take it, but you could take FNP.

That being said your opponent is an asshat, the mace only works on models within 3 inches.

**Maelstrom808**

juraigamer wrote:
An invul save is a save, you cannot take it, but you could take FNP.

That being said your opponent is an asshat, the mace only works on models within 3 inches.

What if the rest of the squad WAS within 3". He never specified.

**juraigamer**

Basimpo wrote:
and then made the rest of the unit do a toughness test.

Clearly an asshat.

**liturgies of blood**

juraigamer wrote:
Basimpo wrote:
and then made the rest of the unit do a toughness test.

Clearly an asshat.

Ten models can easily fit within 3 inches of a daemon prince base, probably get them in around a 20mm base too if they surround the model or are very tightly packed in.

**juraigamer**

Rest of the unit does not imply they were all within range, we can assume that but due to the information presented we can only ascertain that the rule was used incorrectly.

There is no discussion beyond that. No one said they weren't or were withing range, only "rest of the unit". The clarification was already given, we don't know what army the OP was using between nercons, orks and SM, nor do we know what his formation was for the unit in question, it's highly possible for a 10 man tactical squad to be deployed in a line and not all be within 3 inches.

Still an asshat until further information is given.

**rigeld2**

Yeah, guilty until proven innocent is the right way to look at things.

**Basimpo**

7 warp spiders that were within gi2 inches. The original question was about saves not how many could be hit.

**Lobokai**

Just curious. Why would FNP be allowed? It's a check and removed from play, not a wound.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind. Crossing affect to target and surrounding units. Carry on

**juraigamer**

The models take a wound with no saves allowed, but FNP isn't a save, so yes you can FNP the mace's effect, so long as it has you take a wound rather than get removed from play.