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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 19:59:40
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Dakka Veteran
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Hello, I recently was in a match where my opponent clobbered my HQ with the black mace in a challenge, and then made the rest of the unit do a toughness test. According to the black maces rules, in the chaos space marine book on page 69, the models take a Toughness test, if they fail, the take a wound with no saves "of any kind allowed"
According to the 6th edition rules FAQ, top right column, it says that invuln saves can always be taken, even when the wound "ignores armor saves"
Which trumps which here?
Thanks for your time!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 20:02:47
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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The Hive Mind
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Codex trumps rulebook. No saves of any kind means you cannot make a save.
FNP is still available however.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 20:04:34
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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There are 3 types of save: Armour, Cover, Invulnerable.
As noted you can take invulnerable when armour saves are not allowed.
The Black Mace however ignores all types of saves.
So non of the above can be taken.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 20:04:51
Subject: Re:The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Dakka Veteran
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Hm, interesting. Based on the wording of the rule in the codex, I was in agreement with you before I re-glanced at the FAQ. After reading the exact wording of the FAQ, and seeing what you say, I still am in agreement with you.
Thanks
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 20:33:35
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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However the toughness test wouldnt affect the unit would it since a challenge took place and if I recall correctly for all intents n purposes counts as an independant combat
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 20:35:28
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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The Hive Mind
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wargamer1985 wrote:However the toughness test wouldnt affect the unit would it since a challenge took place and if I recall correctly for all intents n purposes counts as an independant combat
You remember incorrectly - it's not an independent combat.
And it would affect the unit, because the rules of the Black Mace are clear that it does.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 20:41:32
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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The Mace "goes off" at the end of the phase. As mentioned the challenge was over at this point.
Even if the challenge was ongoing, the rest of the unit is still within 3" of the bearer. These aren't attacks caused by the challenge. Unless there's an FAQ I'm missing it should still effect the unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 20:46:19
Subject: Re:The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Dakka Veteran
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Ill tell you what, T tests against eldar is killer.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 22:18:04
Subject: Re:The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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An invul save is a save, you cannot take it, but you could take FNP.
That being said your opponent is an asshat, the mace only works on models within 3 inches.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/13 22:57:06
Subject: Re:The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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juraigamer wrote:An invul save is a save, you cannot take it, but you could take FNP.
That being said your opponent is an asshat, the mace only works on models within 3 inches.
What if the rest of the squad WAS within 3". He never specified.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/15 15:47:17
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/15 16:15:37
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Ten models can easily fit within 3 inches of a daemon prince base, probably get them in around a 20mm base too if they surround the model or are very tightly packed in.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/15 18:29:13
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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Rest of the unit does not imply they were all within range, we can assume that but due to the information presented we can only ascertain that the rule was used incorrectly.
There is no discussion beyond that. No one said they weren't or were withing range, only "rest of the unit". The clarification was already given, we don't know what army the OP was using between nercons, orks and SM, nor do we know what his formation was for the unit in question, it's highly possible for a 10 man tactical squad to be deployed in a line and not all be within 3 inches.
Still an asshat until further information is given.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/15 19:28:05
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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The Hive Mind
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Yeah, guilty until proven innocent is the right way to look at things.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/15 21:15:35
Subject: Re:The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Dakka Veteran
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7 warp spiders that were within gi2 inches. The original question was about saves not how many could be hit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/16 02:41:43
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Just curious. Why would FNP be allowed? It's a check and removed from play, not a wound. Automatically Appended Next Post: Never mind. Crossing affect to target and surrounding units. Carry on
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/16 02:43:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/16 16:24:14
Subject: The black mace and taking invuln saves
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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The models take a wound with no saves allowed, but FNP isn't a save, so yes you can FNP the mace's effect, so long as it has you take a wound rather than get removed from play.
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