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This has probably been asked before but still.

A chapter has 1000 battle brothers, lets use this typical chapter. They have a few additional officers to that, captains, command squads, librarius, techmarines etc but those are not that many.

Now imagine this chapter going to war in its entirely. Say the 100-or-so scouts use 10 speeders.
800 brothers from the battle and reserve companies use 70 transports, rhinos, razorbacks.
100 first company veterans use 20 landraiders.

That is about 220-250 marines only as drivers/gunners to transport the main force.

Then we add 10 speeders, 40 predator, stalker, hunter, wirlwind and vindicator class tanks making for another 140 drivers/gunners.

Then we have a fleet of air transports and air cover, say 20 flyers of all kinds.

So in order to wage mechanized war with all 1000 battle brothers somehow we need to conjure up up to 450 additional battle brothers acting as drivers and gunners for the fleet of transports and heavy support.


So how large is the average 1000 man chapter really and where do all these vehicle operators come from?
Every 100 man company has at least 10 rhinos/razorbacks allocated to them, that´s at least 20 marines acting simply as vehicle operators. Add heavy and fast support to that and you´ll see the problem,
If there was some sort of gigantic vehicle operator company being mentioned all would be well but there isn´t.

It's possible that the "1000 battle brothers" thing (Which is stupid as hell for all sorts of reasons) simply refers to the grunts on the ground rather than the complete headcount.

Pyriel- wrote:This has probably been asked before

It has.

Pyriel- wrote:So in order to wage mechanized war with all 1000 battle brothers somehow we need to conjure up up to 450 additional battle brothers acting as drivers and gunners for the fleet of transports and heavy support.

Actually, we don't. From all I've read, Space Marines treat their vehicles like they treat their weapons and armour. You don't have a special squad that ONLY wears Terminator Armour either, and you don't have a special Marine for every single flamer or plasma cannon in the armoury. The Marines will drop with what is most appropriate for the mission at hand, and if the Chapter ever deploys as a whole, then the Chapter Master or the Captains will determine how many and what kind of vehicles they need in comparison to infantry. It's a matter of juggling resources and custom-tailoring the army to whatever job it is to accomplish, and the Space Marines would rather see a vehicle sit idly in the armoury than have a dedicated Space Marine driver who has nothing to do when his vehicle isn't needed. When you're limited to 1k Marines (+ Headquarters Staff), you better make sure to use the ones you have to the utmost efficiency.

"Space Marines are trained to operate all manner of machines and more than any other warriors of the Imperium they can adapt to fulfil any combat role. All Space Marines are able to act as crew for the vehicles maintained in each Chapter's armoury. It is normally the Tactical squads which provide vehicle crews. When fighting in this role they replace their normal tactical markings with crew badges, but otherwise they retain their company colours and Chapter insignia as normal."
- 2E C:UM p.35

"Unless their mission is very unusual, every Ultramarines battle force will be based around at least one battle company. Sometimes it will be supported by detachments from other companies. Some members of the Veteran 1st company and the Scounts of the 10th company will often be attached to the battle company, as will a number of battle brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the supporting vehicles." [...]
"The reserve companies are just that, reserves. They will be used to replace losses in the battle companies and crew vehicles."
- WD #300

"Tactical Reserve Companies 6 and 7 are comprised entirely of Tactical squads. They are intended to act as a general reserve, providing the Chapter with a powerful, flexible force able to launch flank attacks en masse, bolster the main line or combat unexpected enemy manoeuvres. In addition, the Marines of the 6th and 7th Companies can also act as crews for large, independent formations of the various armoured vehicles deployed by the Chapter. Thus the Chapter is able to field entire companies of Land Raiders or Predator battle tanks, for example.
Furthermore, the two companies have a special usage as bike and land speeder detachments. The entire 6th Company can be deployed as Bike squadrons or detachments. The 7th Company is likewise trained to operate as large scale Land Speeder formations."
- 2E C:UM p.30

1000 = 10 x 10 x 10 = just the grunts.

GW 1 click bundle of the Ultramarines chapter:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440270a&prodId=prod2160196a
Dakka thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/552099.page#6048246
Pic borrowed from thread:


As you can see at the GW site ( and Dakka ), GW likes to insert the new kits the centurions, but messes with the 10 squads of 10 marines in doing so.

1hadhq wrote:As you can see at the GW site ( and Dakka ), GW likes to insert the new kits the centurions, but messes with the 10 squads of 10 marines in doing so.

Am I missing something? I see 10 squads + Command per Company.

Actually, we don't. From all I've read, Space Marines treat their vehicles like they treat their weapons and armour. You don't have a special squad that ONLY wears Terminator Armour either, and you don't have a special Marine for every single flamer or plasma cannon in the armoury. The Marines will drop with what is most appropriate for the mission at hand, and if the Chapter ever deploys as a whole, then the Chapter Master or the Captains will determine how many and what kind of vehicles they need in comparison to infantry. It's a matter of juggling resources and custom-tailoring the army to whatever job it is to accomplish, and the Space Marines would rather see a vehicle sit idly in the armoury than have a dedicated Space Marine driver who has nothing to do when his vehicle isn't needed. When you're limited to 1k Marines (+ Headquarters Staff), you better make sure to use the ones you have to the utmost efficiency.

Oh I agree with you but it still doesnt make sense from a fluff point of view.
Besides you are missing the point.

A full scale campaign, imagine for example a tallarn type of battle over large poisonous desert plains, this calls for massive mechanization with every squad being mounted and every tank available.
It cannot be done with the background explanation we are being provided.

It is completelly irrelevant if all marines can operate all kinds of vehicles since the squads come in 10 and companies in 10 x squads. Therefore if each and every squad sacrafices 2 brothers for driving purposes we will end up with a whole bunch of 8 man tactical squads.

Again, w h e are e exactly do the 400-500 additional drivers and vehicle operators come from in order to be able to put said 1000 strong chapter on a mobile war footing?
There is zero explanation in the fluff regarding this and if anything then each typical marine company is not made up of 100 battle brothers (10 squads) but of 80 battle brothers (8 squads) with the 20 remaining acting as designated drivers.

This is even worse in the reserve companies where fast and heavies are drawn from.
If you need 20 predators to support the 10 landraiders trying to break through some battlefield obstacle then that´s an additional 70 battle brothers gone from "somewhere" and that by default means 7 whole squads of marines less to fight elsewhere.

So are companies in effect 120 + officer staff strong?
This is the only way to explain how a company can field itself in 10 transports and that completely nullifies the ridiculous 1000 strong chapter crap.

Another solution is servitors as vehicle operators with the occasional marine commander inside for more important vehicles like land raiders and thunderhawks but again, this is contradicted by the fluff.

The '1000 marines in a chapter' thing is a vague rule set out thousands of years ago by a single space marine legion, and is subject to enforcement by no one but the chapter itself. Given factors such as combat losses, variable amounts of new recruits, and non-combat personnel, it's pretty much a a joke of a law.

The Ultramarines are one of the only chapters that even care about it anyway. All the non-codex chapters ignore it, 9/10ths of the Imperial Fists Legion renamed themselves the Black Templars, Grey Knights, etc.

As far as vehicle drivers, aren't most of those servitors anyway?

Pyriel- wrote:Oh I agree with you but it still doesnt make sense from a fluff point of view.

I don't see how it wouldn't.

Pyriel- wrote:Besides you are missing the point. A full scale campaign, imagine for example a tallarn type of battle over large poisonous desert plains, this calls for massive mechanization with every squad being mounted and every tank available. It cannot be done with the background explanation we are being provided.

That's not how it works. If you want a hammer, you call the Imperial Guard and its regiments' rigid tactics and doctrines and unchanging loadouts.
You may as well deplore how a Space Marine cannot carry both a plasma cannon and a missile launcher simultaneously. Something will have to stay back. The Space Marines have the luxury to pick their loadout according to the mission at hand - and vehicles are a part of it, as are their weapons and (in the case of the 1st Company's Terminator squads) their armour.

If the Space Marines would have dedicated drivers, they'd chill in the Fortress-Monastery for the majority of their service. Do you think this is an efficient use of the resources the Imperium has put into their creation?
Also consider that the 1k Marines limit is a deliberate and intentional constraint on the maximum punch they may deliver. The Astartes are no longer the line infantry of the Great Crusade run like an ordinary army, they are now specialists with a scalpel, always picking the right tool for the job.

"The 6th Company is also trained to use bikes, and the entire company may be deployed as bike squadrons. Similarly, squads of the 7th Company are trained to fight with Land Speeder and the Company commonly acts as a light vehicle reserve formation. The 8th Company is an Assault Company consisting of ten Assault squads. This is the most mobile company and is often equipped with jump packs, bikes and Land Speeders. [..]"
- 5E C:SM

Pyriel- wrote:It is completelly irrelevant if all marines can operate all kinds of vehicles since the squads come in 10 and companies in 10 x squads. Therefore if each and every squad sacrafices 2 brothers for driving purposes we will end up with a whole bunch of 8 man tactical squads.

Or you could simply assume that entire squads are assigned to this duty in order to keep others at full strength. As I quoted from the White Dwarf article, drivers are normally drafted from the Reserves, and the Reserves are not intended to operate as independent companies. That is what you have the Battle Companies for. The Reserves are dedicated support units.

A Rhino requires 1 driver, so even assuming you want the entire Chapter to drop as mechanised infantry, this means one squad of Tactical Marines of the Reserves to be assigned as drivers per company of infantry, or 9 squads total (90 drivers = 90 Rhinos for 9 companies).
Assuming the Command Squads go as well, add another squad of Reserve Tacticals to take care of each company's Command Squad Rhino (10 drivers = 10 Rhinos = 10 Command Squads).
This means that the 6th Company, which happens to consist of 10 Tactical Squads, would on its own be capable of putting all Battle and Reserve Companies under wheels. Since the 6th is all drivers, you now only need to deliver drivers for 9 companies.

Pyriel- wrote:Again, w h e are e exactly do the 400-500 additional drivers and vehicle operators come from in order to be able to put said 1000 strong chapter on a mobile war footing?

The fluff has provided the answer. There are no "400-500 additional drivers".
Since 40k doesn't really have a uniform canon anyways you can feel free to disregard it if you just don't like this. As long as you are at least aware that you're pretty much doing your own thing then, and as long as you do not expect Codex fluff to reflect your interpretation.

Badablack wrote:As far as vehicle drivers, aren't most of those servitors anyway?

Not in the Codex fluff. No idea if some novels etc may have deviated from this, though.

Ive always assumed it would vary from chapter to chapter, although it has been my reasoning (as many others seem to conclude) that the "1000 marines" only applies to the guys in the 10 companies. That right there is dubious at best as the numbers in the 1st and 10th companies are constantly changing and command squads are usually not included in the total number. Im of the opinion that there are about 500 uncounted marines in the chapter armoury who fulfil the role of dedicated drivers. These are the guys who can be promoted to techmarine if their "affinity with the machine spirit" is strong enough. If the crews are made up of marines from the reserve companies, why is tank crew armour Mars red? Space marines are constantly prosecuting new campaigns and will always need significant vehicle support, I find it unlikely that any tank crews will be left "sitting idle" at home.

Dont agree.
According to you a chapter is thus far from flexible since they have to turn down battles that can only be waged fully mechanized.
Besides you are basically saying a standalone company (traveling fully equipped in a cruiser for example) can never deploy fully mechanized sicne the 100 marines would have to need 20 drivers that they dont have and thus either they choose another way of waging war or drive of in 8 man squads.

That does not equal a flexible elite fighting force but something that can only pick smaller fights that are equipment sensitive.

I believe Lynata is explaining how it is "supposed to work" very well. I'm not sure why there is still a question or rebuttal.

Pyriel- wrote:According to you a chapter is thus far from flexible since they have to turn down battles that can only be waged fully mechanized.

Not "according to me". Even if it would be that way, then it'd be according to the fluff as published in the material I mentioned.
And I have provided a deployment scheme that enables the Chapter to fight fully mechanised. As I said, the 6th Reserve Company is able to put the entire Chapter under wheels all on its own.

Pyriel- wrote:Besides you are basically saying a standalone company (traveling fully equipped in a cruiser for example) can never deploy fully mechanized sicne the 100 marines would have to need 20 drivers that they dont have and thus either they choose another way of waging war or drive of in 8 man squads.

I am not. Please read my first posts again.

#1 You need one squad of Space Marines to supply drivers for the rest (10 Marines = 10 drivers for 9 Infantry Squads + Company Command Squad).
Why are you so insistent that they'd pick 2 (and why 2? Rhinos need one driver) drivers from every squad instead of simply splitting up a single unit like it would, you know, actually make sense?

#2 As quoted from the WD article, it is quite normal that Battle Companies deploy with support from the Reserves, which have been mentioned to supply the drivers for supporting vehicles. That is what they're meant for.

As I said, if you don't like the idea of Space Marines being that flexible, just ignore it. You as a gamer have the freedom to decide what to include and what to dismiss from your vision of 40k, as we all do. But don't just claim that the books tell crap.

vodo40k wrote:Im of the opinion that there are about 500 uncounted marines in the chapter armoury who fulfil the role of dedicated drivers.

Well, who exactly is part of the Armoury has been noted in the 5E Codex:

This chart lists the entirety of the Ultramarines Chapter with every single Battle Brother accounted for.
It should be noted that a lot of Space Marines are assigned "double duties", such as the Captain of the 4th Company simultaneously being Master of the Fleet, which probably explains why Sergeant Chronus isn't listed in the Armoury - his primary position remains with whatever company he is part of (obviously my guess would be one of the Reserves, as those are meant to supply the drivers).

I believe Lynata has explained the concept very well and I am wondering why there is still a question or rebuttal. Remember, Adeptus Astartes are not intended to be the full battle force but more of a Special Operations Group that can adapt at a moments notice.

If this helps any the way I always resolved this to myself was that the scout company tends to be a little swollen (only by 1-2 dozen marines) to replace casualties and the command, librarium and armoury are not covered in the 1,000. This doesn't resolve the "missing" 400-500 marines however it does produce and additional ~20.

Then if we assume that with each company there is a command group of ~10 to run the company and an armoury attachment of ~5 to maintain equipment, which I do not feel is unreasonable, you come out with 150 total "extras". Now throw in 2-3 librarians of varying rank per company plus those extra scout squads in good times and we have about ~200 more potential pilots either directly or freed up with the addition to our "fighting strength".

Now if we're in an engagment where the whole chapter must be mechanized for whatever reason it is likely that they would deploy in such a way that they can get 800 boots on the ground with the 400 drivers worth of vehicular support divided into transport and tank work. With your calculation (from my understanding of them) we can assume each vehicle takes 2 crew. Due to this the 800 battle brothers would need 160-200 drivers depending on deployment leaving another 200-240 for tank/skimmer/flyer duty. Which would be 120-100 vehicles of support for 80-100 apc's.

I fail to see any issues in that kind of deployment, in fact that's a good deal better than I'd expect from a small force like the SM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition to my last post those numbers become even more lenient if the rhinos only require 1 driver (but a gunner is always nice).

In addition a company never flies solo. That's the purpose of the difference between battle companies and reserve companies. It is incredibly similar (on purpose) as to how our own military works. In effect each chapter only regularly fields 500-600 of its men in 4 battle companies using the reserves to rotate wounded and replace casualties. Meanwhile the other half is either in training, recovering from battle injuries or instructing his new brethren.

I simply cannot see where there's inflexibility. This setup, while flawed for what it claims to do, is very flexible and gives a commander many, many options.

Maybe they use scouts (there must be way more then a hundred of them) as drivers for the more "common" vehicles.

Not "according to me". Even if it would be that way, then it'd be according to the fluff as published in the material I mentioned.

Ah but it is here that we differ as I dont see the fluff as having anything to do with the issue. Fluff is just a bunch of nonsense written by clueless people in an office.
i´m talking more about the logic with the chapters drivers and the supposed 1000 marines, somehting that does not compute.

Bear in mind, fluff also gave us things like tanks that in reality would not be able to cross across even modestly rough terrain (land raider hull) and armour of the strongest SM tanks being the equal to world war two tin can shermans (imperial armour). Fluff is to be taken with a barrel of salt.

Another fun fluff debate could be the Salamanders chapter wargear and vehicle armoury but I can do that in another thread should you wish to exchange some thoughts on that one.

Pyriel- wrote:Ah but it is here that we differ as I dont see the fluff as having anything to do with the issue. Fluff is just a bunch of nonsense written by clueless people in an office.

Ah - you should've said so earlier.
As I mentioned, if you don't like what the books say, just disregard it. Enough Black Library authors are doing so - there's no reason for you to treat the material any different.

I still don't see the problem you seem to have, but I guess it's just a matter of personal preferences regarding how we envision the Space Marines to "work" within the setting.

Well ive been convinced that some chapters (the ultramarines anyway) can use reserve company marines to crew vehicles. I still dont understand how they find the time to repaint their armour every time they are on vehicle duty...

I wouldnt put it beyond some chapters to use highly augmented chapter serfs to crew vehicles/crew aircraft. The chapter serfs are very rarely mentioned, there would have to be many thousands of them to crew the chapters space fleet, not to mention all those that work in the fortress monastery and in various positions in the armoury.

Maybe they don't exactly repaint the shoulder pauldron, but rather slap some sort of insignia (note how the original quote mentions "crew badges") over it? Either magnetically, or affixed via screws/bolts, similar to the name plates you sometimes see on Marine shoulder armour.

Just an off-the-top-of-my-head theory, mind you. I'd find it just as weird as you if they'd have the Chapter serfs or Artificers grab paintbrush and paint pots every time the Reserves switch roles.

In regards to the "crew badges" I would imagine that the Marines have multiple pieces of modular shoulder armor and grab whatever shoulder piece they need when fulfilling a particular role.

vodo40k wrote:. I still dont understand how they find the time to repaint their armour every time they are on vehicle duty...

The chapter serf idea is a good one.
Chapter serfs are surely not a myth but codices focus on their masters. BL products had a ratio of 1 : 10 or higher,
( the Iron Hands book did it IIRC ).
And we as hobbyists paint a lot, the military likes to keep the soldiers busy behind the lines and camo has been hand painted IRL , chapter serfs like to serve and to paint is to serve , right?

Lynata wrote:Maybe they don't exactly repaint the shoulder pauldron, but rather slap some sort of insignia (note how the original quote mentions "crew badges") over it? Either magnetically, or affixed via screws/bolts, similar to the name plates you sometimes see on Marine shoulder armour.

Why not paint?
Real military painted whole camo schemes on tanks. Little pauldrons aren't such a overwhelming paint job....

Chris_P wrote:In regards to the "crew badges" I would imagine that the Marines have multiple pieces of modular shoulder armor and grab whatever shoulder piece they need when fulfilling a particular role.

Lots of theories and imagination here.
So how about examples of painted minis by GW?
I would really love to see this mythical "crew badge". Anyone interested to provide a link or a pic?

BTW, I did my homework and linked the actual take of GW at a mobilized Ultramarines chapter

1hadhq wrote:Why not paint? Real military painted whole camo schemes on tanks. Little pauldrons aren't such a overwhelming paint job....

Maybe. Battletech regiments repaint their 'Mechs all the time, too. I guess to me it just doesn't fit as well to 40k (or rather, specifically the Space Marines in 40k) as their armour is treated almost like a relic rather than a simple tool, so repainting it would be something I see reserved for special things (such as a tour of duty in the Deathwatch) rather than being done every couple weeks, even if it's just the shoulder plate.

Gut-feeling.

1hadhq wrote:I would really love to see this mythical "crew badge". Anyone interested to provide a link or a pic?

After a bit of googling ...
Looks like the SM Rhino kit actually comes with Space Marine crew bits. I'm a bit surprised none of the SM players chimed in with that info so far.



Not a GW paintjob, but since the crew badge is sculpted onto the pauldron one could at best debate what colours it'd have.
Also solves the question whether GW thinks it's a paint job or a real badge, I guess.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:I would really love to see this mythical "crew badge". Anyone interested to provide a link or a pic?

Not a GW paintjob, but since the crew badge is sculpted onto the pauldron one could at best debate what colours it'd have.
Also solves the question whether GW thinks it's a paint job or a real badge, I guess.

Sorry, try again. The kit has the badge of the mechanicum, as sported by Techmarines.

I know its not so easy. I'll offer a hint: codex Ultramarines 6th edition.
Seems not supplied with kits. Missing on decal sheets and unavailable as shoulderpad currently.

1hadhq wrote:Sorry, try again. The kit has the badge of the mechanicum, as sported by Techmarines.

The Techmarines that run the Armoury, to which the drivers would be assigned for the duration of their duty, as mentioned in Sgt. Chronus background in the 6E C:SM?

I fail to see the problem here.

1hadhq wrote:I know its not so easy.

Is that snarky attitude a trademark of yours? If you have something constructive to add to the discussion, do it.

 Lynata wrote:


Is that snarky attitude a trademark of yours?

You didn't invest more than a few keystrokes and "googled" and I am the bad person because the new dex isn't ported to a database and you have to read a book?

 Lynata wrote:

If you have something constructive to add to the discussion, do it.

I did

And going to do so:

Opus Machina page 93. The vehicle accessory sprue badge.
Vehicle crew shoulder badge is found 78 pages -> or <- ???

 Pyriel- wrote:
Maybe they use scouts (there must be way more then a hundred of them) as drivers for the more "common" vehicles.

Not "according to me". Even if it would be that way, then it'd be according to the fluff as published in the material I mentioned.

Ah but it is here that we differ as I dont see the fluff as having anything to do with the issue. Fluff is just a bunch of nonsense written by clueless people in an office.
i´m talking more about the logic with the chapters drivers and the supposed 1000 marines, somehting that does not compute.

Bear in mind, fluff also gave us things like tanks that in reality would not be able to cross across even modestly rough terrain (land raider hull) and armour of the strongest SM tanks being the equal to world war two tin can shermans (imperial armour). Fluff is to be taken with a barrel of salt.

Another fun fluff debate could be the Salamanders chapter wargear and vehicle armoury but I can do that in another thread should you wish to exchange some thoughts on that one.

Uh, if fluff has nothing to do with your question *looks up forum description* what, good Sir, are you doing here? To elaborate: The way your original question was phrased, it pertained to standing facts (however reliable these can be considered) of the 40k background ("fluff"). You explicitly didn't ask "where would modern fictional armies under the circumstances draw their drivers from" but you asked for how it is stated to be in the fluff. The latter is been answered, and quite extensively so. And now you claim that you're not interested? That's silly.
So, to answer your questions, marines are actually puppets, steered by golden retrievers. Proof: No space marine has ever shown fear of water, and golden retrievers are known not to be afraid of water as well, hence, space golden retrievers. Now, since the bulky power armour leaves a lot more space than one golden retriever would take up, they each carry 2 chihuahuas with them at any time which can act as gunners and drivers or any function in which their frail bodys are protected by some kind of armour. Problem solved.

1hadhq wrote:You didn't invest more than a few keystrokes and "googled" and I am the bad person because the new dex isn't ported to a database and you have to read a book?

I don't understand what you're getting at? What exactly do search methods or the new book have to do with your attitude? You asked for pictures of a Space Marine mini with a crew badge, so that's what I looked up.

1hadhq wrote:I did And going to do so:
Opus Machina page 93. The vehicle accessory sprue badge.
Vehicle crew shoulder badge is found 78 pages -> or <- ???

Complete and intelligible sentences, please.
You may think it's fun to attempt to ridicule partners in a debate by withholding information, but unless you are able to cite something like it is common and respectful to do, I'm going to drop out of this exchange. I really don't think this is too much to ask, and I have better things to do than playing riddle games to satisfy some other poster's pride.

the numbers thing is a rough guideline at the best of times...it's utterly impossible for a fighting force to maintain a specific number when it is constantly suffering losses and constantly trying to add to their numbers with archaic methods that kill most recruits anyway.


IThe only chapters that are probably trying to adhere to this "rule" are the ones that are closest to the Ultramarines, the rest are likely just trying to keep up with their losses. Honestly, there's nobody that's really checking on this anyway. The Black Templars are reported to have several times the standard thousand astartes and since they haven't shown any signs of corruption or heresy, they're allowed to continue to operate...while their exact numbers aren't known , it is pretty much widely accepted that they have significantly more than a thousand. The Imperium is in too much trouble to go out and tell their best soldiers to stop recruiting.

Interestingly enough, that crazy UM Chapter deal comes with vehicles, so if we are to assume that you should be able to field all those models at once, the drivers must be part of the companies. (No the fluff doesn't really support this.)

I can't quote this but I recallfrom a WD article on land raiders that for the actual battle tanks (land raider and predator) are commanded by techmarines and driven by marines from the reserve companies.

Also whoever said the predator has less armor than a sherman is wrong. The predator has composite armor made up of a ceramite/adamintine allow that give the tank the equivalent armor protection of 325mm of RHA then on the inside is a energy dissipation fiber followed by a layer of reinforcing thermoplas. This would give the predator NBC protection and added protection against kinetic penetration shells as the different densities of the layers of the armor dissipate the energy of incoming shells. This is how the armor on modern MBTs work. Considering that no armies that I know of in 40k use HEAT rounds (imperial guard use APBC for normal russes, APFSDS for vanquishers and HESH for conquers which is completely defeated by composite armor, tau use rail guns so just a chuck of hyper accelerated metal, orks use rubber bands and magic and most other people use energy weapons) the predator's AV is actually under valued by 40k standards as the composite armor would give it unprecedented protection form most munitions.