amphibious battles

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**Barzam**

So here's a topic we never seem to see in 40k fiction. How does the Imperium conduct warfare at sea? Are there IG regiments that specialise in underwater combat? Does the Imperial Navy maintain fleets of submarines and battleships? How exactly would Astartes conduct maritme warfare? Do they have specialized armor?

**Nobody_Holme**

Well the orks had at one point (may still exist) a submarine model, so there's something. Guard use chimeras for costal work, also, and also in lieu of landing craft for their infantry, so it would only make sense for the imperium to have naval forces available.

**Kain**

The Gorgon superheavy transport is pretty much a landing vehicle with tank tracks and a large number of heavy stubbers and mortars. Oh and it can carry fifty people.

The Chimera can also go over water.

Generally speaking though, easy ground to space travel has rendered sea travel obsolete for military purposes.

The Space Wolves, did however have an underwater battle with the Tau.

Also, the minor Xenos species, the Sarhuadin are amphibious xenos sharkmen.

**Username Invalid**

I know there's always a question abut whether Black Library stuff is canon, but the topic was covered in Henry Zou's Flesh and Iron.

The novel features three Guard regiments - the 105th Caliguan Motor Rifles (a standard chimera mounted mechanized infantry force), the 31st Ouisivian Riverine (space Cajuns, kitted out like the Americans in 'Nam with a mix of chimeras, inflatable assault boats, and larger heavy weapon mounting swift boats, supported by valks and vultures, and even having the option of swapping their lasguns for autoguns - no doubt looking like M16s), and, the real answer to your question, the Persepian Nautical Fleet.

The Persepians are basically a modern wet-navy, but grimdarkified and 40kified. They seem to only have patrol ships, of a variety of classes and a number of huge ships referred to as "Argo-Nauticals" that, as far as I can tell, are a cross between battleships and aircraft carriers and carry a full complement of aviators (oddly not under the purview of the Imperial Navy). The novel also seems to treat Guard regiments as being tens of thousands strong (it states that 14k Motor Rifles were lost before the events of the novel, but then has them fighting the war basically by themselves by the end of it) at the very least, which seems to contradict the figure of about 8,000 for the Cadian 8th in the last ed. Codex; it did say the number in regiments varied, but that's a little extreme.

So, taking the book as canon, it seems the Guard has specialist wet-navy formations.

**Kain**

Username Invalid wrote:
I know there's always a question abut whether Black Library stuff is canon, but the topic was covered in Henry Zou's Flesh and Iron.

The novel features three Guard regiments - the 105th Caliguan Motor Rifles (a standard chimera mounted mechanized infantry force), the 31st Ouisivian Riverine (space Cajuns, kitted out like the Americans in 'Nam with a mix of chimeras, inflatable assault boats, and larger heavy weapon mounting swift boats, supported by valks and vultures, and even having the option of swapping their lasguns for autoguns - no doubt looking like M16s), and, the real answer to your question, the Persepian Nautical Fleet.

The Persepians are basically a modern wet-navy, but grimdarkified and 40kified. They seem to only have patrol ships, of a variety of classes and a number of huge ships referred to as "Argo-Nauticals" that, as far as I can tell, are a cross between battleships and aircraft carriers and carry a full complement of aviators (oddly not under the purview of the Imperial Navy). The novel also seems to treat Guard regiments as being tens of thousands strong (it states that 14k Motor Rifles were lost before the events of the novel, but then has them fighting the war basically by themselves by the end of it) at the very least, which seems to contradict the figure of about 8,000 for the Cadian 8th in the last ed. Codex; it did say the number in regiments varied, but that's a little extreme.

So, taking the book as canon, it seems the Guard has specialist wet-navy formations.

Well in the word bearers novels, two Elysian regiments and a skitarii legion had millions of men between them.

Of course said force was defeated by maybe three thousand word bearers.

**Username Invalid**

That's fair enough then I guess, GW and its writers have never been very good at math!
The numbers in regiments do seem to vary from a few thousand (Codex, Ciaphas Cain and the like) to any number you can imagine (a whole slew of different sources) so I guess I can't really fault the book on that one. Plus, I actually enjoyed the novel. The idea that each regiment is approximately equivelent in fighting potential (something I've heard a few times, can't recall where) is obviously pretty silly based on the fiction.
Now the Space Marine thing bothers me, they shoouldn't even have enough amunition to face an army in the millions! Mind you, I've always thought that Space Marines should be by far the least significant faction in 40k, they don't have the numbers to make any real difference on a galactic scale, hell they should barely be able to affect a sector wide conflict. All that aside, Space Marines are really cool, so I guess GW can be forgiven.

**Kain**

Username Invalid wrote:
That's fair enough then I guess, GW and its writers have never been very good at math!
The numbers in regiments do seem to vary from a few thousand (Codex, Ciaphas Cain and the like) to any number you can imagine (a whole slew of different sources) so I guess I can't really fault the book on that one. Plus, I actually enjoyed the novel. The idea that each regiment is approximately equivelent in fighting potential (something I've heard a few times, can't recall where) is obviously pretty silly based on the fiction.
Now the Space Marine thing bothers me, they shoouldn't even have enough amunition to face an army in the millions! Mind you, I've always thought that Space Marines should be by far the least significant faction in 40k, they don't have the numbers to make any real difference on a galactic scale, hell they should barely be able to affect a sector wide conflict. All that aside, Space Marines are really cool, so I guess GW can be forgiven.

The Chaos Space marines had ten thousand years of experience, a very skilled Coryphaus, and were quite fond of using Daemons and cultists to soak up bullets.

That being said a single Imperator Titan nearly defeated their entire force, and had they not had their magic tower so close to completion, the giant sonic cannon carrying void shielded crawler would have obliterated them.

This is then surpassed by Seven thousand Chaos Space marines going up against 14 billion Guardsmen...and save for the more secular word bearers, most of them only considered the 300 or so White Consul loyalist marines to be a threat.

Then came in the forces of one Necron Tomb Ship which thoroughly owned both sides until the Necron device blocking the wormhole and the warp was destroyed, allowing a massive Imperial Fleet deployed to be able to jump anyone trying to ply the wormhole to appear and wipe out over 90% of the remaining Word Bearers there.

**Username Invalid**

As awe inspiringly awesome as all that sounds, I can't help but feel that this is why people think 40k is so very silly. They'd also be right, but at the same time, that sounds incredibly cool and I now want to read that book.
40k's really at its most fun when we forget about things like logic, common sense and real world physics and just get lost in all the insanity, Saint's Row IV style.

**darthnatus**

Username Invalid wrote:
As awe inspiringly awesome as all that sounds, I can't help but feel that this is why people think 40k is so very silly. They'd also be right, but at the same time, that sounds incredibly cool and I now want to read that book.
40k's really at its most fun when we forget about things like logic, common sense and real world physics and just get lost in all the insanity, Saint's Row IV style.

Which is why this is the best idea of all time: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/552259.page

**Lynata**

Barzam wrote:So here's a topic we never seem to see in 40k fiction. How does the Imperium conduct warfare at sea?

Quoting myself from another thread that can still be found on page 1:

Lynata wrote:Armageddon's Hive Tempestora sits next to an ocean. This free PDF hosted on GW's website briefly mentions' the Orks using crude submarines built from the hulls of captured Imperial tankers to stage a surprise attack on the city (somewhat more detailed on the old Armageddon 3 campaign website), and even includes a profile for using such subs in your games if you like.

As for the reason why surface ships rarely play a role in 40k? I'm with Psienesis. Orbital and aerial superiority (which need to be established for proper troop landings) will nigh-nullify any strategical value a surface navy may have. Likewise, for the Imperial Guard to deploy their own ships when they invade a planet is simply impractical, as it depends so heavily on the campaign target being close to the shore (or the planet actually having notable bodies of water at all) whilst the troops may just as well be transported using the trusty Valkyrie dropships and other landers. Better use that metal to make more tanks.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that it would be impossible for a PDF to have surface ships - especially on worlds that have large oceans and occasionally see fighting between local factions, such as various noble houses duking it out with their navies. As long as the planet pays its tithe, the Imperium won't interfere. Stuff like PDF planetbound patrol boats, frigates or battleships is just nothing that would have any relevance to either the Imperial Guard or the Imperial Navy.

Lynata wrote:Naval forces serve only two purposes: force projection and transportation. WW2 and the subsequent decades have shown how aircraft have slowly rendered battleships redundant. Nowadays, a fleet's only purpose is to ferry missiles and aircraft close to the campaign theater, essentially providing a mobile base. Anything aside from the carrier, the heart of a modern naval battlegroup, is just there to protect or assist it.

The thing is that the technology of 40k allows aircraft and missiles to no longer need a carrier to reach their destination, essentially rendering the entire fleet useless. I'd imagine the average Imperial invasion having the attacking starships take position in orbit, pounding away at various ground targets whilst scores of fighters, bombers and landers are launched to converge on their assigned target location, be that a land installation or surface-bound PDF ships. I'd imagine the latter would fare no better than battleships in WW2 falling prey to coordinated torpedo and bombing runs.

The only thing I could think of as actually being useful for invading forces would be submergibles likes the ones the Orks have built, be it to launch a surprise attack (assuming that detection is only possible above sea-level, which would include surface ships as well as aircraft) or to engage hostile subs that are trying to hide from airstrikes whilst simultaneously managing to interfere with Imperial landing operations on land, possibly because the landing site is close to a coastline and the subs have AA guns/missiles.

That being said, I guess I'm just too used to the idea of the Imperial Guard throwing people at a problem until it goes away, so I'm not too fond of something so very limited as a "regiment" with submarines on the off-chance that the IG invades a planet that has oceans, which are close to the target, and the enemy having enough subs to actually be a nuisance.

That obviously doesn't mean anyone else has to follow this interpretation, though. In the end, 40k is what we want it to be, so anyone who wants IG navies shouldn't have too much of a hard time coming up with appropriate fluff. I can certainly understand the appeal, even though it doesn't exactly synch with my vision of the setting.

**Sgt_Smudge**

There was a battle where a Land Raider attacked Tau by going underwater?

**Lynata**

Yeah, I think that was in the Space Wolves Codex. The Tau had an underwater colony and the Marines just walked over the ocean floor.

Don't ask me how the water didn't flood the engine through those four huge exhaust pipes, though.

**Grey Templar**

A better question is why does a LR have exhaust pipes at all when it uses a nuclear generator.

Hence my belief that the pipes are really part of the cooling mechanism, which wouldn't matter being flooded. It would actually help.

**Lynata**

"Its rugged engine design can be adapted to use almost any fuel type, including a variety of gases, fossil fuels, liquids and even vegetative matter."

Maybe the nuclear bit was from some novel or Forgeworld book, but in GW's own material it seems to be a good ole' combustion engine.

**Barzam**

Lynata wrote:
*snip*

All reasonable and logical, Lynata, but so much of 40k relies so heavily on Rule of Cool, that I fully expect there to be nautical naval battles going on somewhere in the universe just for the sake of having one. Also, wouldn't an entirely ocean covered world pretty much nullify the affects of an orbital bombardment? Water tends to dissipate laser beams and all.

Also, Flesh and Iron totally sounds like a book I need to track down.

**Lynata**

Agreed about the Rule of Cool. Like I said, if you want it to be there, have at it.

I just think it's not surprising or illogical that the studio material has (so far) avoided that topic - playing devil's advocate, so to say. I certainly agree that nautical battles might be a cool thing, I'd just limit it to local PDF stuff, I guess. I also freely admit that, the more I think about it, a regiment consisting of submarines and scuba-troopers for those few but important underwater targets is a fun thing to mull over. Needless to say, it'd be a very specialised thing that would have to be active way beyond the usual 10k lightyear recruitment zone - but hey: we already got the Elysians as the Imperium's boarding specialists and whenever there's something with a jungle they seem to call in the Catachans, so why the hell not? I actually sense a ton of potential in this idea. Enough for a novel series all on its own. Especially when you consider that the various planets' oceans can be just as diverse as their surface, both in terms of environmental conditions (temperatures, elements, various natural phenomena) as well as dangerous wildlife. Every ocean would be a new adventure and a new voyage into the unknown. Plus, you'd get lots of "dieselpunk", given how IoM tech works.

Spoiler:

Barzam wrote:Also, wouldn't an entirely ocean covered world pretty much nullify the affects of an orbital bombardment? Water tends to dissipate laser beams and all.

I suppose it depends on what exactly you want to bombard, meaning how far the target is from the water surface line.
As much as water would help against laser-based bombardment, though, it also is a good medium for shockwaves. Rig a barrage bomb with a delayed detonation timer -> improved depth charge. It's like fishing with dynamite, just that your dynamite has a higher yield, and that your fishes are called Tau.

**Mezmerro**

Kain wrote:
Also, the minor Xenos species, the Sarhuadin are amphibious xenos sharkmen.

Weren't they retconed? IIRC thy was from Second edition

**Kain**

Mezmerro wrote:
Kain wrote:
Also, the minor Xenos species, the Sarhuadin are amphibious xenos sharkmen.

Weren't they retconed? IIRC thy was from Second edition

There's nothing regarding the fate or whereabouts of the Sarhuadin. They're just left by the wayside because as Namor and Aquaman show, nobody cares about anything underwater.

**Leech**

There was a brief mention of a PDF force that had a navy in the book Fall of Damnos. The Necrons wiped it out before it could do anything though. There was also a story in WD once about Tyranids infesting an ocean. The description was of them bio-forming it for their own uses. Engineers on the ship reported things scratching on the hull, trying to get in. The Tyranid Mawloc is also described as being able to use it's hypersenses (it is almost blind) to hunt in a liquid medium.