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So dreadnoughts were already bad under the old codex and didn't really get any better with the new one. This saddens me, as I really like the silly old trash cans.

In any case, if one has his mind set to fielding a dreadnought, what are the least stupid alternatives (assuming one can use FW rules as well)? I don't really see much use for regular dreadnoughts, but Contemptors (Mortis and otherwise) at least pack some respectable punch, and are quite a bit more resilient too. They are a lot of points though. Ironclads in drop-pods is something I've heard many people using; how do they fare? (And why, oh why, there cannot be venerable Ironclads?)

Dreadnoughts are not bad. It really is in how you use them. I regularly run an ironclad and a regular dread in drop pods with my other drop units. They give me a good anti tank shot the first turn and if not destroyed that turn, cause several problems for certain armies the second turn.

At 115-145 points they are really pretty cheap when compared to assault units. Dreads are my staple unit for getting rid of over watch when assaulting. Assault first with the dread. If they fire, good. if not lock them in combat and assault with the second unit.

I think Iron hand dreads will be scarey since I never loose a dread in one turn. It usually takes people 2-3 turns to kill them.

Don't believe the internet

 Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:

Don't believe the internet

The...irony....is too much....

I tend to reserve mine - he makes a nice turn 2-3 counter assault unit.

I have not played with the new Codex yet but I still run my Riflemen with good success. The general mindset for dreads in my meta seem to be that they are not worth shooting on right from the start, so they get at least a few salvos of.
For me it's mostly a style question but my Dread never performed that bad that I would consider switching them out.

Ironclads in pods are still excellent for a drop pod army. That AV13 is still pretty tough.

Normal dreads I'm not really seeing much there. They still are slow and fairly vulnerable to anti-tank. Though with Venerables now being reasonably priced, maybe they're an option?

How about Contemptors? Are they worth their points?

 Crimson wrote:
How about Contemptors? Are they worth their points?

From what I understand, yes.

They are beefed up in armour and I believe they have an invuln save? Plus, they have some awesome weapon options, and look kickass!

 Crimson wrote:
what are the least stupid alternatives

'Counts as' centurions with TL LC and ML

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
How about Contemptors? Are they worth their points?

From what I understand, yes.

They are beefed up in armour and I believe they have an invuln save? Plus, they have some awesome weapon options, and look kickass!

They have Skyfire as well, yeah? One of the FW ones does, anyway. Can't go wrong with AV13, Skyfire, AND looks bad ass!

 Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:
Dreadnoughts are not bad. It really is in how you use them. I regularly run an ironclad and a regular dread in drop pods with my other drop units. They give me a good anti tank shot the first turn and if not destroyed that turn, cause several problems for certain armies the second turn.

I'm gonna have to agree with Dunn on this one. Yes, they aren't as powerful as they were in previous editions, but they are still badass on the board. They just can't play the same battlefield role they had before. Try different combos with them if you have the chance.

I'm of the school that dreadnoughts are overcosted. Some key things have changed in the game of 40k in the past 14 months that caused this.
1) Many units got cheaper, which means they are packing more firepower per point. Dreadnoughts have not gotten any cheaper.
2) Units can now use krak and melta bombs more easily on dreadnoughts. This has lowered their durability.
3) If a unit cannot hurt a dreadnought they can fall back out of combat.
4) Armor 12 is not that tough. They don't have the durability to survive in today's meta of wave serpents and riptides.
So in summary, they just have very bad values on a per-point basis. They should be about 90 points with a TL LC and ML.

They are a really cool model, and a really cool concept, but they just fail in today's game. Dreadnoughts need a complete overhaul.
This could be in the form of an invuln save, or a special IWND of 3+, or just flat out cheaper.

I'll put in another vote for a drop pod ironclad. However, I prefer running them with two heavy flamers rather than the meltas and thinning out infantry. If going for the tank hunter melta option, don't forget that ironclads can take 2 hunter seeker missiles which can be quite handy as well, although that does start to make them pretty expensive.

while I don't think that dreads are amazing i do think they are quite underrated.

Double TLautocannon dreads are pretty decent for only 120 pts. good range, mobile and fairly durable.

Ironclads in drop pods with 2 heavy flamers will ruin some armys but others will mostly ignore them (lol wave serpents and flying circus). Still pretty cheap and durable, a solid option if your enemy has a squishy backfield.

Ok, now to one up this question:

I see a number of useful options for Space Marine Dreadnoughts, but what about Chaos Dreadnoughts? (Oh excuse me, "Hellbrutes"... )
We don't have have half the options of our Imperial counterparts: No AV13, no Venerables, no Assault cannons, and most importantly: no Drop Pods.
Oh and we're also more expensive, since the Imperial one comes with a free storm Bolter and their heavy flamer upgrade costs less.

I would really like to use them, as in my opinion all kinds of Dreadnoughts are still among the coolest models in 40k. But right now, I don't quite see how to make them useful.

Any more ideas?

urza8188 wrote:
Double TLautocannon dreads are pretty decent for only 120 pts. good range, mobile and fairly durable.

This is a prime example of one of the problems with the C:SM codex.

Why would I want to grab the rifleman dread over a storm talon. For 5 more points I get something that's.
* Has nearly twice as many shots.
* Has better speed
* Is harder to hit
* Has skyfire
* Causes pinning
* Immune to assaults

I don't have many gripes about the C:SM book. Its a good codex that has brought a lot back into the powered armor armies. However, GW fell flat on some cases. They should have compared them to the newer models and realized that there are some big internal balance problems in the C:SM book.

BTW and FYI:
cost comparison to 5th -> 6th edition:

Space Marine Dreadnought: slightly cheaper, lascannon slightly cheaper
Venerable Dreadnought: significantly cheaper

Chaos Dreadnought: effectively same base cost, but used to include TL Bolters in its CC weapons. some weapons 5 points more, others 5 points less.


Overall I believe Dreadnoughts would become useful if they were 20 points cheaper, thus putting them into the same price category as Centurions/Obliterators.

Ironclads work well in any army, while normal dreads work best if you mech up hard with predators and razorbacks and stuffs.

One thing people tend to forget is that dreads have move through cover and can fire their guns all the time. Hide them in cover, move into it... BECOME THE COVER.... then shot and run.

Otherwise droppod ironclads, at least 2 if you do. If not dropped besides melta they can cause greif for a turn or 2.

 labmouse42 wrote:

3) If a unit cannot hurt a dreadnought they can fall back out of combat.

...And risk getting caught in an I4 sweep and killed anyway.

 hazal wrote:
One thing people tend to forget is that dreads have move through cover and can fire their guns all the time. Hide them in cover, move into it... BECOME THE COVER.... then shot and run.

Otherwise droppod ironclads, at least 2 if you do. If not dropped besides melta they can cause greif for a turn or 2.

Sadly only Ironclads have move trough cover.

 Shadox wrote:

 hazal wrote:
One thing people tend to forget is that dreads have move through cover and can fire their guns all the time. Hide them in cover, move into it... BECOME THE COVER.... then shot and run.

Otherwise droppod ironclads, at least 2 if you do. If not dropped besides melta they can cause greif for a turn or 2.

Sadly only Ironclads have move trough cover.

Either way, Walkers take tests for difficult terrain the same way infantry does and only take dangerous terrain if it would be dangerous terrain for infantry too.

I really wish they'd done away with walkers altogether in this edition. They just don't seem to work.

Henshini wrote:
I really wish they'd done away with walkers altogether in this edition. They just don't seem to work.

There's some iron hands players who would like to have a quiet word with you.

I'm sure they'd much rather have IWND dreadknights than dreadnoughts.

Until the next edition, that is.

Or rather, before grav guns existed. Now, suddenly, all MC's are dead all the time. It's quite funny. Go ahead, cast iron arm again.

Henshini wrote:
I'm sure they'd much rather have IWND dreadknights than dreadnoughts.

Ironclad Dreadnoughts are in my experience more effective than Dreadknights at present, and use an Elites rather than Heavy Support slot to boot.

So plenty of people seem to like Ironclads. What weapon combinations do you usually use?

the day of the iron clad busting out of a drop pod and smashing face are all but destroyed, since the rule for the FW dp has been changed. I run several pods and a few dreads and will say that the best ones, imo, or the contemptors. Mortis patterns are sweet with two lascannons and skyfire. regular contemptors are just as good with the mix of range weapons and cc choices they have. I also like the venerable. but as far as the iron clad and normal dreads are concerned, Ive given all of mine away. put contemptors in FW dread dp and let it loose.

all this if your play group doesn't cry about FW models. if that's the case, sorry.

contemptors have 5+ invuls and interceptor on mortis patterns. BS 5 on the normal contemptors
mortis are HS and regular contemptors are elite.

 Crimson wrote:
So plenty of people seem to like Ironclads. What weapon combinations do you usually use?

Base loadout plus two hunter-killer missiles.

 Crimson wrote:
So plenty of people seem to like Ironclads. What weapon combinations do you usually use?

Seismic Hammer w/ flamer
CC weapon with stormbolter
assault launcher
two HK missles