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Topic...

Before or after the commissar shoots him?

Commissars operate out side the chain of command, that's their shtick. People just tend to do what they say because they are allowed to shoot pretty much anyone if their 'advise' isn't taking into consideration.

The way i understand it is that commissars are political officers, they are generally outside the standard chain of command unless/until the other officers get killed. Kind of like SM Chaplains.

So a commissar could shoot creed?

Only if Creed displayed gross incompetence or cowardice.

What a Commissar is supposed to do is ensure the rank-and-file of the Imperial Guard execute, to the absolute best of their abilities, the orders that are handed down from their officers. They are also there to ensure their officers do not suffer from gross incompetence, malfeasance, heresy, and so on and so forth. So if an officer (like Chenkov) is issuing legitimate orders, the Commissar ensures that the men carry those orders out... even if those orders are to charge a static gun-line across a minefield.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
So a commissar could shoot creed?

Technically, yes, the Commissar would execute the highest leadership model should the squad break. Whether or not Kell or any other member of the Command Squad would stand for this afterwards is questionable to say the least. However, that would only happen should Creed's squad break... How likely do you think that is to happen in fluff or on tabletop?

There is also the fact that Creed is now the Lord Castellan of Cadia, which might make him more of a Planetary Governor than an IG Officer, which would entirely move him outside the remit of the Commissariat.

So commissars aren't of normal rank? I'm so confused... lol

Commissar's aren't of normal rank. They are there to ensure adherence to certain doctrine, the carrying out of orders, the enforcement of discipline, to root out and destroy heresy, to advise officers on military actions (as commissars have extensive training and experience of their own) and to coordinate with other regiments of different cultures. If there the commanding officers of a unit are killed/wounded/otherwise removed, a Commissar can take over as a temporary Commanding Officer until a replacement can be found.

Essentially, the Commissariat is there to ensure regiments do their job, that the rules apply to everyone, and provide a common basis for coordination and transmission of information between vastly different fighting elements and cultures.

If necessary, a Commissar can execute a Lord Solar/Warmaster, but nobody who would attain such a rank would likely be weak enough to fall prey to such an action that would require such a sanction.

So pretty much, a commissar outranks everyone.

No. A Commissar cannot, for example, walk up to a Company Commander and order him to take his troops and go attack this one hill when that company has been ordered to attack another hill. A Commissar has *no* rank (excepting Colonel-Commissar Gaunt, but that is a totally different situation...) and so cannot, in most circumstances, take command of a unit of Guardsmen when there is an officer of actual rank present.

Psi's got it. The commissar has no rank, and no position within the command hierarchy. He doesn't outrank anyone, but neither does anyone outrank him. In THEORY, every member of the Imperial military machine has a commissar attached to them SOMEWHERE (although they may not be aware of it). The commissars have broad reaching powers, so far as they fall within the purview of their specific mandate.

Ideally, the commissar acts as an informal advisor to the officers he is assigned to, prevents the vast majority of cowardly and amoral behavior among the soldiers he is assigned to, and deals with the cowardly and amoral behavior that DOES crop up in whatever manner he sees fit. (Which varies from lighter punishments for things like forgetting to lock a door all the way up to summary execution.)

In the worst case scenario, the commissar is a psychotic micromanager, demanding that everyone live up to an impossible moral and professional standard, and enforcing his will with petty, arbitrary, and severe punishments. This sort of commissar is the most likely to try and order officers around, and it isn't uncommon for them to suffer unfortunate friendly fire "accidents."

In any event, I hope this helps.

A Commissar is there to maintain morale and punish incompetence. They can advise the ranking commander, but the commander gets to actually decide what to do. The Commissar will (generally) only intervene if the commander is being either incompetent or cowardly (ie ordering a retreat that the Commissar doesn't agree with). At that point, he can put a bolt shell in the commander's head if he wants to, and take over proceedings until another commander is appointed.

As stated above, the Commissar doesn't have a formal rank- they exist outside the structure of the regiment they're assigned to. Sort of like aggressive, murderous consultants...

As a side note, the movie "Enemy At The Gates" is my opinion, what the Commisar is all about. That and the above posts will really give you a good idea of what the rank of Commisar should function as.

Okay, people, let's set this straight.

The Imperial Guard is part of the Departmento Munitorum, but, basically, it's also its own thing at its own sub-level. The imperial guard is the men wearing flak armor and driving tanks, and their entire purpose is to put bullets and las blasts into bad guys. Those who aren't actively doing this are only one step removed - like officers telling soldiers to put bullets into THOSE guys, before winding up doing the job with a power sword themselves.

Every body else, and that means everybody, is part of the Munitorum but isn't, in any way, a part of the Imperial Guard. Cooks are not part of the guard. Techpriests (and regular priests) are not part of the guard. Staff officers of every kind, none of them are part of the imperial guard either. For everybody outside of the imperial guard, imperial guard ranking doesn't really make sense, and it certainly doesn't apply to them. It only exists within the guard itself so that everyone knows whose pointing finger they should follow with their artillery battery, or whatever.

Commissars are staff officers who are part of the departmento munitorum. They are not, though, part of the imperial guard. Some commissars exist to keep an eye on logistics (and executing truck drivers who bring the artillery shells to the wrong battery as a lesson to others). Some commissars exist to keep a keen eye on battlefield intelligence (and to execute stormtroopers and sentinel pilots who bring back faulty information as a lesson to others). Some commissars exist to keep a firm grasp on discipline, so that soldiers will actually obey the orders of their imperial guard higher-ups (and will execute anyone who is lapsing in discipline, like, by running away, for example).

Rather than being chain-of-command driven, these staff officers are task oriented. They get a job, and are responsible for that task being done, and have carte blanche for whatever methods they think will make sure things run smoothly (including shooting people). If the commissar's job is to make sure everyone is fed, and the troops are going hungry, the commissar can execute whoever he wants and put someone new in his place, so long as the troops are brought back up to fighting strength by being well-fed. Likewise, if there is an imperial guard commander, of whatever rank (rank being irrelevant to a person not in the system), he can shoot him, and put a better leader in his place to make sure everything runs smoothly.

So, really, when you think of commissars, think of thankless civil servants, doing all of the background work to keep the imperial guard as well-oiled and smoothly-functioning of a military body as it's possible for the imperial guard to be. If a sergeant or captain or some other officer is making things non-smooth, or making the machine work incorrectly, then, like a mechanic, they can remove the dud parts and put new ones in at their discretion.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is also the fact that Creed is now the Lord Castellan of Cadia, which might make him more of a Planetary Governor than an IG Officer, which would entirely move him outside the remit of the Commissariat.

Dead Men Walking had a DKoK Colonel execute a Planetary Governor for treason.

That might not be right, though. Planetary governors aren't part of the departmento munitorum. It would be like an imperial guard officer executing a space marine captain or a confessor in the ecclesiarchy. I'm pretty sure that's out of their scope.

Commsisars can tend their own garden however they want, but I'm pretty sure they can't water the gardens of others in their own blood.

I'm not sure that would stop a Krieger, honestly. These are the guys who have Commissars to stop them from flinging themselves into hopeless meat grinders. Not the sort of Guardsman you want to look like you've committed treason in front of.

Then the kreiger should have been shot for disrupting the way things work. A kreiger shooting a planetary governor is just as disruptive as a chaos cultist shooting a planetary governor.

You really, REALLY don't want guardsmen just shooting whoever they want if they don't like them. That's pretty much exactly the kind of behavior that the departmento munitorum (and thus commissars) would seek to avoid.

Also true. I don't think he'd get away with it, unless there was pretty compelling evidence that he was right (in which case he's probably getting a pat on the back and a medal or an autogun to the face during the subsequent heretic uprising). Definitely something I could see happening, though.

Either that, or the Munitorum loses the paperwork on what exactly to do with him until he's waist-deep in the next war zone...

Context, no reading if you're planning on to read the book

Commissars are an interesting mix of things.

Generally speaking they do not have battle-field command over the unit they are attached to, although various fluff has Commisars act as squad commanders or similar rolls during battle. Their main purpose is to enforce adherence to the imperial creed and battlefield discipline and to monitor their assigned troops for signs of heresy and corruption. They have the authority to execute anybody in their assigned area (and that means anybody) if they display cowardice or incompetence. The cowardice is of course the easier of the two, and the incompetence could likely always be up for debate (but good luck debating with a Commissar).

Commissars do have good tactical knowledge and depending on their assignment and relationship with their unit they may be consulted and part of battlefield planing. Some of them might lean more towards the "I don't like your idea, sounds like incompetence *bam*" side of things while others may be more open to unconventional tactics and ideas. But they don't have a clear operational or tactical command over their unit.

Now there are a few Commisars that are actually full-pledged commanders of a regiment, Colonel-Commisar Gaunt as an example, who fulfill both the roles of a Regimental Commander as well as Regimental Commissar.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is also the fact that Creed is now the Lord Castellan of Cadia, which might make him more of a Planetary Governor than an IG Officer, which would entirely move him outside the remit of the Commissariat.

I hope this isn't true, because if so then scenes like this couldn't happen. Commissar Holt!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiaJldR39A8

For some real life context, once the Soviet military got over the dual command thing (where all military decisions at nearly every level right down to company of platoon had to be ratified with the commissar, I'll give you three guesses how that went) Commissars often spent their time briefing the soldiers on what they should think on certain issues, for example "How do we treat german civilians?" and "Treat the Americans and British good now, even though they are capitalist dogs." I imagine in the IG its the same, Commissars would spend some time telling soldiers what to think on certain issues. Thats what a political officer does, informs the soldiers on how they should feel on certain political issues.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is also the fact that Creed is now the Lord Castellan of Cadia, which might make him more of a Planetary Governor than an IG Officer, which would entirely move him outside the remit of the Commissariat.

Commissars have the authority to execute civilians during war time.

^ If the civilians are under martial law, and there is a valid reason (sabotage, collusion) then yes.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The Commissars.

The commissar from dead men walking wasn't a Krieger. Commissars are never appointed to a regiment from their own home world. In case of dead men walking, the commissar was there to put some humanity in the death korps. They served as a public relations agent more than a commissar. Death Korps of krieg don't really need a political morale officer, it's somewhat bred into them (for example they don't have names, just numbers, codes).

Commissars do not keep DKoK from running away. They keep them from running to. The fight. DKoK are like Orks, they like nothing better than a good krumpin.