Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've never personally faced the new space marines yet, so I can't say if devastator centurions are very powerful against the necrons just yet, but i was wondering what the forum's opinion was on how necrons fare against the new grav cannons.

From reading the new sm codex, even though the grav cannons have a range of 24'' (and because of this, some races can laugh at this due to this rather short range), the problem that the necrons have with the grav cannon is that, well, necron guns are also at 24''. Is this a threat to the necron gunline, and if it is, what are some ways to counter the devastator centurion?

Shoot at Centurions with night/doom scythes, rinse, repeat as needed...

GravCannon wounds on 4+, ap2... what's so scary? Put Warriors in ruins, roll 4+... issue?

I haven't faced this yet, but I've been worried about it too.

I think the only thing it will be a problem for is vehicles, since most necron infantry doesnt rely on high armor saves. I do run a lot of vehicles, so I'm a little worried. I bring destructeks, so I plan on making any centurions I face target number one for them.

Terms should fear...

Necron warriors... should not.

All what the grav cannons do is encourage warrior hoards.

Just like old times.

Deathray to the face will usually take care of any problems the centurions might pose.

And in regards to Cthulu's sig, I prefer "Brunch is served!"

...preferably in a bad french accent.

 NinjaStars wrote:
I haven't faced this yet, but I've been worried about it too.

I think the only thing it will be a problem for is vehicles, since most necron infantry doesnt rely on high armor saves. I do run a lot of vehicles, so I'm a little worried. I bring destructeks, so I plan on making any centurions I face target number one for them.

In order to do anything to a vehicle, the Grav Weapon has to:
1. Hit you (BS 4, Salvo 3/5, Centurions are Slow and Purposeful)
2. They do not roll for armor penetration. Instead, they roll a d6. On a 6, they cause 1 HP and immobilize effect. There is considerable discussion about whether or not you get a cover save, as cover saves are rolled against armor penetration, not hits. Same with Jinks. Some even argue you don't get an invulnerable save.

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

I'd be more worried about the Cents having 3 TL LC's and ML's or Hurricane Bolters. But again, 24", and they would have to foot slog unless your opponent wants to invest in a Land Raider or Stormraven... now we're talking over 500 points on four models.

Will you ever see these guys en masse? I doubt it. Too expensive (US$70 for three models? ) to purchase, too expensive per model (60 points a model before upgrades, and you're gonna want to upgrade them), and quite frankly, there are far better choices in the codex to take.

wow thanks guys! i'm getting some good ideas here! Definetely against the space marines, warrior hordes with lords with res orbs and ghost arks will DEFINETELY be back in style if centurions get to be too much of a problem. also, doom and night scythes are quite effective in dealing with the centurions. Would having groups of 10 warriors in a ghost ark be more effective than having 20 warriors with a lord and then accompanied by a ghost ark?

In all cases though, it seems that immortals may fall out of style: 3+ armour save just doesn't cut it anymore, with everyone having plasmas, and grav cannons doing a LOT of damage against immortals...

How about Wraiths? Grav weapons will not have any effect on them. Or do they?

Wraiths have a +3/++3 save.

Apart from the IF Devastator Centurions with Lascannons I am not to bothered by them. Just drown them in Tesla, like everything else.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 NinjaStars wrote:
I haven't faced this yet, but I've been worried about it too.

I think the only thing it will be a problem for is vehicles, since most necron infantry doesnt rely on high armor saves. I do run a lot of vehicles, so I'm a little worried. I bring destructeks, so I plan on making any centurions I face target number one for them.

In order to do anything to a vehicle, the Grav Weapon has to:
1. Hit you (BS 4, Salvo 3/5, Centurions are Slow and Purposeful)
2. They do not roll for armor penetration. Instead, they roll a d6. On a 6, they cause 1 HP and immobilize effect. There is considerable discussion about whether or not you get a cover save, as cover saves are rolled against armor penetration, not hits. Same with Jinks. Some even argue you don't get an invulnerable save.

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

I'd be more worried about the Cents having 3 TL LC's and ML's or Hurricane Bolters. But again, 24", and they would have to foot slog unless your opponent wants to invest in a Land Raider or Stormraven... now we're talking over 500 points on four models.

Will you ever see these guys en masse? I doubt it. Too expensive (US$70 for three models? ) to purchase, too expensive per model (60 points a model before upgrades, and you're gonna want to upgrade them), and quite frankly, there are far better choices in the codex to take.

I agree with most things, especially price. But grav amps let them reroll misses, so its more like12 or 13 hits, and 2 hits to vehicles (at least to me and a lot who interpret it this way) cause 3 hull points. one for first hit, 2 for 2nd and the extra immobilize. They need to faq that though, a lot of people complain.

And what you should REALLY watch out for, is a bike squad. A bike squad with 3 bikes and 2 grav guns has an effective range of 30 inches, same as the cents, but next turn is actually closer. And a 3 man bkie squad is 93 points, you can field 3 of those for the same points as the grav cents.

 Byte wrote:
Shoot at Centurions with night/doom scythes, rinse, repeat as needed...

GravCannon wounds on 4+, ap2... what's so scary? Put Warriors in ruins, roll 4+... issue?

Grav Cannons on Centurions get to reroll to wound and hull point strip vehicles and the Grav Cannons themselves are twinlinked. So that's a 75% chance of wounding on every shot against even the worst armored of Necron troops and they'll be hitting with damn near every shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

That's entirely wrong and you're a little silly for saying this out loud, on the second six, which they get rerolls for, (and they're twinlinked) they'll cause two HP per shot as you're already immobilized. So two sixes means you're already down three hull points, which means that unless you're a land raider, monolith, spartan, or superheavy, you're dead. With the grav amp's rerolls and twin linking, you hit nearly all the time and you have a 25/36 chance of rolling a six. So that's more of a one third chance per shot. So out of 15 shots, you're looking at every vehicle in the game not deployed solely in apocalypse being destroyed in a single turn.

 Kain wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Shoot at Centurions with night/doom scythes, rinse, repeat as needed...

GravCannon wounds on 4+, ap2... what's so scary? Put Warriors in ruins, roll 4+... issue?

Grav Cannons on Centurions get to reroll to wound and hull point strip vehicles and the Grav Cannons themselves are twinlinked. So that's a 75% chance of wounding on every shot against even the worst armored of Necron troops and they'll be hitting with damn near every shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

That's entirely wrong and you're a little silly for saying this out loud, on the second six, which they get rerolls for, (and they're twinlinked) they'll cause two HP per shot as you're already immobilized. So two sixes means you're already down three hull points, which means that unless you're a land raider, monolith, spartan, or superheavy, you're dead. With the grav amp's rerolls and twin linking, you hit nearly all the time and you have a 25/36 chance of rolling a six. So that's more of a one third chance per shot. So out of 15 shots, you're looking at every vehicle in the game not deployed solely in apocalypse being destroyed in a single turn.

The Grav-cannon on Cents is not twin linked; its the Grav-amp that allows you to reroll the wound roll or it's effect on vehicles. So my math still holds true- 15 shots, 10 hit, two dice after the reroll will come up a 6 (this is Mathammer of course! Your results will vary).

After that, there is still considerable debate about what happens. Do I get a cover save? What about an invulnerable save? Does the second shot really cause another HP for the second application of Immobilize? Is damage applied simultaneously, or sequentially? GW has done an incredibly piss poor job of implementing a new/interesting weapon into mainline 40K. Forge World did it so much better- why did they have to mess it up?

If you call that rules lawyering/RAW and follow the "spirit of the rules"/RAI, then Grav-weapons are all put useless- over priced, under ranged, and a ML/LC/PC can do it just as well/better. There is nothing a Grav-weapon can do that another weapon can do at greater ranges and for less points.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Shoot at Centurions with night/doom scythes, rinse, repeat as needed...

GravCannon wounds on 4+, ap2... what's so scary? Put Warriors in ruins, roll 4+... issue?

Grav Cannons on Centurions get to reroll to wound and hull point strip vehicles and the Grav Cannons themselves are twinlinked. So that's a 75% chance of wounding on every shot against even the worst armored of Necron troops and they'll be hitting with damn near every shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

That's entirely wrong and you're a little silly for saying this out loud, on the second six, which they get rerolls for, (and they're twinlinked) they'll cause two HP per shot as you're already immobilized. So two sixes means you're already down three hull points, which means that unless you're a land raider, monolith, spartan, or superheavy, you're dead. With the grav amp's rerolls and twin linking, you hit nearly all the time and you have a 25/36 chance of rolling a six. So that's more of a one third chance per shot. So out of 15 shots, you're looking at every vehicle in the game not deployed solely in apocalypse being destroyed in a single turn.

The Grav-cannon on Cents is not twin linked; its the Grav-amp that allows you to reroll the wound roll or it's effect on vehicles. So my math still holds true- 15 shots, 10 hit, two dice after the reroll will come up a 6 (this is Mathammer of course! Your results will vary).

After that, there is still considerable debate about what happens. Do I get a cover save? What about an invulnerable save? Does the second shot really cause another HP for the second application of Immobilize? Is damage applied simultaneously, or sequentially? GW has done an incredibly piss poor job of implementing a new/interesting weapon into mainline 40K. Forge World did it so much better- why did they have to mess it up?

If you call that rules lawyering/RAW and follow the "spirit of the rules"/RAI, then Grav-weapons are all put useless- over priced, under ranged, and a ML/LC/PC can do it just as well/better. There is nothing a Grav-weapon can do that another weapon can do at greater ranges and for less points.

The old FW grav guns would be Haywire and do you really want 3 or 5 haywire shots per model that got to reroll their haywire roll? That would effectively mean any sort of mech within 24' would automatically cease to exist from any sort of grav weapon at all. The FW Graviton weapons were balanced because they didn't spew out massive amounts of shots, and were more of a hindrance than a lethal weapon against infantry, although ironically forcing DT tests made them lethal to hordes but not to heavily armored infantry, which is the exact opposite of what their intended targets are ten thousand years later.

The meta is already hateful enough towards mech lists, we don't need single Centurions being able to haywire a Land Raider into pieces on top of that.

And yes, you really do lose two HPs after getting immobilized once. Anyone who disputes this is silly, this is how things work, there is no disputing this unless you're butthurt about losing a baneblade to grav guns.

And what you should REALLY watch out for, is a bike squad. A bike squad with 3 bikes and 2 grav guns has an effective range of 30 inches, same as the cents, but next turn is actually closer. And a 3 man bkie squad is 93 points, you can field 3 of those for the same points as the grav cents.

Hmmm 3 squads of bikes with 2 grav guns each, so that's 6 grav guns at 3 shots each, so that's 18 shots, and this is just a little more expensive then the dev centurions.

I could see with these guys AND centurions, it could make a pretty nasty combination. I guess i never really considered the bikes to be a threat because of their 3+ armor save(with cover), but they have speed where the centurions don't...

However, with the bikes, since they have to be within that 18'' range, they'd definetely be more susceptible to be assaulted with scarabs or wraiths. I think having a squad of heavy destroyers, along with a group of scarabs and wraiths, could help: the heavy destroyers have 36'' range gun and so are one of the only guns we have that can outrange things like vindicators and the devastator centurions, unless they bring las cannons.

If dev centurions bring las cannons though, can't we just treat them as if they were just regular devastators or oblits? because they basically act the same...

 Kain wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Shoot at Centurions with night/doom scythes, rinse, repeat as needed...

GravCannon wounds on 4+, ap2... what's so scary? Put Warriors in ruins, roll 4+... issue?

Grav Cannons on Centurions get to reroll to wound and hull point strip vehicles and the Grav Cannons themselves are twinlinked. So that's a 75% chance of wounding on every shot against even the worst armored of Necron troops and they'll be hitting with damn near every shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

That's entirely wrong and you're a little silly for saying this out loud, on the second six, which they get rerolls for, (and they're twinlinked) they'll cause two HP per shot as you're already immobilized. So two sixes means you're already down three hull points, which means that unless you're a land raider, monolith, spartan, or superheavy, you're dead. With the grav amp's rerolls and twin linking, you hit nearly all the time and you have a 25/36 chance of rolling a six. So that's more of a one third chance per shot. So out of 15 shots, you're looking at every vehicle in the game not deployed solely in apocalypse being destroyed in a single turn.

So shooting at Warriors in ruins... Wounds on 4s and 4+ cover save. If it ignored cover that would be scary. Otherwise, its like shooting bolters.

 Byte wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Shoot at Centurions with night/doom scythes, rinse, repeat as needed...

GravCannon wounds on 4+, ap2... what's so scary? Put Warriors in ruins, roll 4+... issue?

Grav Cannons on Centurions get to reroll to wound and hull point strip vehicles and the Grav Cannons themselves are twinlinked. So that's a 75% chance of wounding on every shot against even the worst armored of Necron troops and they'll be hitting with damn near every shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

That's entirely wrong and you're a little silly for saying this out loud, on the second six, which they get rerolls for, (and they're twinlinked) they'll cause two HP per shot as you're already immobilized. So two sixes means you're already down three hull points, which means that unless you're a land raider, monolith, spartan, or superheavy, you're dead. With the grav amp's rerolls and twin linking, you hit nearly all the time and you have a 25/36 chance of rolling a six. So that's more of a one third chance per shot. So out of 15 shots, you're looking at every vehicle in the game not deployed solely in apocalypse being destroyed in a single turn.

So shooting at Warriors in ruins... Wounds on 4s and 4+ cover save. If it ignored cover that would be scary. Otherwise, its like shooting bolters.

Tigurius, or allied Tau commander...

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Shoot at Centurions with night/doom scythes, rinse, repeat as needed...

GravCannon wounds on 4+, ap2... what's so scary? Put Warriors in ruins, roll 4+... issue?

Grav Cannons on Centurions get to reroll to wound and hull point strip vehicles and the Grav Cannons themselves are twinlinked. So that's a 75% chance of wounding on every shot against even the worst armored of Necron troops and they'll be hitting with damn near every shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

That's entirely wrong and you're a little silly for saying this out loud, on the second six, which they get rerolls for, (and they're twinlinked) they'll cause two HP per shot as you're already immobilized. So two sixes means you're already down three hull points, which means that unless you're a land raider, monolith, spartan, or superheavy, you're dead. With the grav amp's rerolls and twin linking, you hit nearly all the time and you have a 25/36 chance of rolling a six. So that's more of a one third chance per shot. So out of 15 shots, you're looking at every vehicle in the game not deployed solely in apocalypse being destroyed in a single turn.

So shooting at Warriors in ruins... Wounds on 4s and 4+ cover save. If it ignored cover that would be scary. Otherwise, its like shooting bolters.

Tigurius, or allied Tau commander...

Ok, so now this is scary? Because clearly that much build at 24" is required to shoot out a unit of Necrons from ruins with Centurions... Anything can be tailor built.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Shoot at Centurions with night/doom scythes, rinse, repeat as needed...

GravCannon wounds on 4+, ap2... what's so scary? Put Warriors in ruins, roll 4+... issue?

Grav Cannons on Centurions get to reroll to wound and hull point strip vehicles and the Grav Cannons themselves are twinlinked. So that's a 75% chance of wounding on every shot against even the worst armored of Necron troops and they'll be hitting with damn near every shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Let's say 3 Cents all armed with Grav Cannons (a 250+ point unit BTW) somehow manages to walk across the board (they can't run- thanks S&P!) and get within 24" of one of your vehicles. They fire- 15 shots. 10 hit, rolling MAYBE 2 sixes. Causing a couple HP's and you now have an immobilized vehicle. Your turn, you kill them all.

That's entirely wrong and you're a little silly for saying this out loud, on the second six, which they get rerolls for, (and they're twinlinked) they'll cause two HP per shot as you're already immobilized. So two sixes means you're already down three hull points, which means that unless you're a land raider, monolith, spartan, or superheavy, you're dead. With the grav amp's rerolls and twin linking, you hit nearly all the time and you have a 25/36 chance of rolling a six. So that's more of a one third chance per shot. So out of 15 shots, you're looking at every vehicle in the game not deployed solely in apocalypse being destroyed in a single turn.

The Grav-cannon on Cents is not twin linked; its the Grav-amp that allows you to reroll the wound roll or it's effect on vehicles. So my math still holds true- 15 shots, 10 hit, two dice after the reroll will come up a 6 (this is Mathammer of course! Your results will vary).

After that, there is still considerable debate about what happens. Do I get a cover save? What about an invulnerable save? Does the second shot really cause another HP for the second application of Immobilize? Is damage applied simultaneously, or sequentially? GW has done an incredibly piss poor job of implementing a new/interesting weapon into mainline 40K. Forge World did it so much better- why did they have to mess it up?

If you call that rules lawyering/RAW and follow the "spirit of the rules"/RAI, then Grav-weapons are all put useless- over priced, under ranged, and a ML/LC/PC can do it just as well/better. There is nothing a Grav-weapon can do that another weapon can do at greater ranges and for less points.

A unit of grav cents will get just over three 6's on average, which will cause 5 hull points of damage.

A second imobilsed result causes an extra hull point of damage. This is clear in the rules and there is no reason to think otherwise.

You cannot take saves vs the effect of grav weapons on vehicles. The rules are also clear on this, however is seems reasonable to assume that GW did not intend for it to be that way.

Grav cents will destroy any vehicle in the game in one volley. This is a problem for necrons because;

-Necrons have limited range on most units and tend to be most effective within 24".

-Necrons have above average armour and toughness, which is what grav weapons are most efficient against.

-Necron vehicles are also very tough but die as easily as DE raiders vs grav weapons, making them efficient targets for centurion too. Being imobilised is bad for crons as you loose your jink and have short range.

I completely agree about the hull point thing, but do you really think its open and shut on cover vs grav? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just wanted to know why you think its open and shut.

The rules for cover and invulnerable saves deals with penetrating and glancing hits only. Since Grav-weapons cause neither (theoretically) you would get no save. However, Flicker Fields set a precedent on taking saves against direct damage (such as Dangerous Terrain or Grav-weapons), so (theoretically) you would be able to take a save.

There is probably already a debate on it in YMDC so its best left there, but its as described above (minus the nightshield bit ).

Heavy destroyers and lancetecs will be very useful against grav cents and are also handy for riptides and wraith knights.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
There is probably already a debate on it in YMDC so its best left there, but its as described above (minus the nightshield bit ).

Heavy destroyers and lancetecs will be very useful against grav cents and are also handy for riptides and wraith knights.

Yeah I fixed it. No one in my store plays DEldar so I get Night Shields and Flicker Fields mixed up on occasion.

Hmmm, a doomsday cannon could probably deal with them pretty well, assuming it survives long enough to fire.

trentblack201 wrote:

And what you should REALLY watch out for, is a bike squad. A bike squad with 3 bikes and 2 grav guns has an effective range of 30 inches, same as the cents, but next turn is actually closer. And a 3 man bkie squad is 93 points, you can field 3 of those for the same points as the grav cents.

Hmmm 3 squads of bikes with 2 grav guns each, so that's 6 grav guns at 3 shots each, so that's 18 shots, and this is just a little more expensive then the dev centurions.

I could see with these guys AND centurions, it could make a pretty nasty combination. I guess i never really considered the bikes to be a threat because of their 3+ armor save(with cover), but they have speed where the centurions don't...

However, with the bikes, since they have to be within that 18'' range, they'd definetely be more susceptible to be assaulted with scarabs or wraiths. I think having a squad of heavy destroyers, along with a group of scarabs and wraiths, could help: the heavy destroyers have 36'' range gun and so are one of the only guns we have that can outrange things like vindicators and the devastator centurions, unless they bring las cannons.

If dev centurions bring las cannons though, can't we just treat them as if they were just regular devastators or oblits? because they basically act the same...

What you have to worry about is white scars spamming grav guns.

imagine khan giving them all scout, so they move up 12 inches off their starting line, guaranteed first turn shooting with every grav gun in the army. Here is a baseline khan list at 1500

khan on moondraken

5x bikes, 2x grav guns, combi grav

5x bikes, 2x grav guns, combi grav

5x bikes, 2x grav guns, combi grav

5x bikes, 2x grav guns, combi grav

5x bikes, 2x melta guns, combi melta

5x bikes, 2x melta guns, combi melta

that's a lot of 4+ jink saves

here you could either take say a command squad with 4 grav guns, and an apothecary for khan to roll with, or say 3x sets of land speeders with 2x heavy bolters. Personally I will be dropping a bike squad for some scouts at least, to take any objectives put high up in buildings, maybe with a storm.

Ironically the best units at taking out grav cents are units armed with grav guns.