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Thoughts on C:SM : Teleport Homers, TFCs, and Termies

The first most important aspect of C:SM is not the “point reduction” that hits when you open the pages. After thinking it through you will see that a lot of what the old codex got for free is now priced separately. While this is a good thing, probably not the most important thing.

The most important thing is ARTILLERY. The marines have always won battles by using tactical maneuvers rather than sheer power, but this relies on taking advantage of mobility (and density of force to some extent) to concentrate power on a fraction of the opponent’s force to sequentially deal with the opponent’s forces rather than taking it all on at once. This way a smaller “net force” could prevail against a larger force. But if the opponent castles up so that anything approaching must face the FULL force all at once, you can’t tactically approach him. Enter artillery: the punisher of turtles.

Marines have been short on artillery. Before getting to the whirlwind, let’s discuss other long range anti-horde options. Heavy bolters and to a lesser extent autocannons and assault cannons are shorter in range (not autocannon), suffer from the ability of horde to create and use cover, and cannot fire beyond line of sight. Missiles are priced for versatility and not anti-horde specialty and are less adequate than heavy bolters for that purpose.

Whirlwinds are 23.529% less expensive, although it may be more appropriate to think of the points invested in them as being 85/65 or 30.7% more effective. That is quite a boost. But even so, we got more because now the TFC also is a barrage weapon that doesn’t need line of sight, and will probably be easier to hide due to the physical properties of the models. But to fully understand the superiority of the TFC you have to think deeper.

A 3” template covers 9pi sq. inches. A 5” covers 25pi sq. inches. TFC gets 36 of these (pi square inches) vs the 25 of the WW. But, 36/25*65=93.6 which is less than the cost of the TFC. So on first blush it seems WW is superior in a points per square inch pie plated. But, the key is not that the TFC small template is more concentrated in general, you could be more concentrated on a bad area after scatter. The key is that it is more concentrated in the particular case that you land on direct hit. It will be easier to find a spot that is more concentrated than usual for your small template than the large template, but to illustrate I offer this example:

Suppose your opponent lines up his troops with perfect 2” spacing. Only on a kink in the line will the 5” pie plate be able to get three targets in a direct hit by placing the hole slightly more toward one edge of the center-target model’s base. Looking only at the direct hits, we see that each shot of the WW has a 1/3 chance of scoring 3 hits, or 1 expected hit. Each shot of a TFC will only ever hit one model on a direct hit, so each shot of a TFC produces a 1/3 chance of scoring 1 hit, or 1/3 an expected hit. The TFC shoots 4 times, so it has a total of 4/3 expected hits. While the pie plate has a better chance of hitting two in the scatter, a TFC can hit two in a good scatter as well, it would take a computer or someone with more time on their hands to tell you which way the scatter difference tilted in this scenario, but it probably is much smaller in magnitude than the direct shot difference.

But that is not the only advantage of the TFC. It is also cheaper in force organization slots, so a basic marine detachment can take 279 points of WW quality artillery by using TFCs even if you don’t buy my argument that they are worth their points in pie plate coverage. Of course, you’ll need other heavy slots to crack open transports so you can hit them with the artillery, making the FOC efficiency of the TFC even more valuable.

So now we can be marines again. Most important change.

Now the more minor stuff. In response to a thread by Mr. Omega, I’ll address terminators and teleport homers on tacticals first. I’ve come to the conclusion that after the internet watched Jawaballs GW decided that they needed to sell stuff other than LRCs and hammernators. But shooty terminators may make a comeback, and thanks to THs, they may do so via deep strike.

Shooty terminators began their comeback when 6th made power weapons mostly useless against them and let a 3++ independent character tank big shots for them sometimes. This second part is really the key. Now, the thing in the new codex that preserves the usefulness of shooty terminators is that EW shield. Now an Imperial Fist C:SM can run up to three EW 3++ characters (Marneus’s 4++ isn’t good enough for me!) that all can take rail cannon hits without dying to instant death. Of course the potency of dropping a DS shooty terminator squad is well known when it goes off well, which is why the homers are on the tact squads now. Ideally, a high mobility army will be countered by the marines putting their tactical and scout squads everywhere and then DS where-ever the opponent happens to be when the reserve comes in. Ideally. Of course, in assault these shooty terminators are practically as good as hammernators against horde and with a 3++ IC tanking they will be better than lightning claws against elite and MCs.

This connects back to the TFC. If this has no TFC forcing a high mobility opponent to disperse his forces, the DS of the terminators will be less effective. Indeed, even with a less mobile opponent, the force density of terminators will take greater advantage of a dispersed opponent.

Ravenguard:

Vanguard vets let you mix a unit so you can do the 3++ tank thing, they have the veteran extra attack which people sometimes forget about due to their rarity of play, and Shrike gives them a first turn charge, which is almost as good as charge off DS, in fact maybe better since there is no waiting for reserves and chance of mishap. Keep in mind that the switch to elites means the Ravenguard can now take as many jump troops as Blood Angels can (60), so that chapter tactic goes even farther now. While tactical marines only had a “point reduction” scouts had a real point reduction. With the Ravenguard chapter tactic a C:SM scout with a camo cloak and a cover save is as survivable as a Blood Angel scout with FnP from a magically points-free Sang Priest in a similar situation, but costs around 3 points less depending on how you value a veteran sgt.

Again, the threat of a first turn assault from Shrike as well as the rush of extremly mobile Assault marines (are Ravenguard jump troops the longest expected charge in the game now?) will pressure the opponent to castle up. TFC.

I personally know nothing about bikes and Templars since one has been too uber for me to afford and the other has sucked (mostly, there was like a week and a half after they got patch updated a couple years ago) longer than I’ve been playing until now at least. I don’t really know what the new codex adds to a basic drop-pod in and alpha toast them Salamanders strategy, which again benefits from the TFC dispersal (and their empty drop pods), so I’ll move on to the Iron Hands.

Get your Ironclads. That IWND on an AV13 all around beast that drops out of a pod in your FACE. Saves dreadnoughts in this codex. Welcome back to the fifth ed vehicle. The AV13 makes every hull point restored by IWND even more valuable since it is an AV13 hullpoint. Ironclads are the only things that would compete for the second TFC heavy slot in my mind. You may want to take six and leave the TFC in the allied FOC. Paint your BAs charcoal, throw away all your apothecaries, and strip the weapons off your razorbacks so you can push your economy priced BA FnP up the field to catch up with the 3-5 ICs that you just dropped in the opponent’s face first turn.

It is tempting to run the hammernators here as Iron Hands. I don’t think a 6+ is enough, heck I was disappointed when it dropped to a 5++ for real FnP. Compare the hammernators to a newly cheap honor guard dropping out of a pod, with chapter-master 3++ EW shield tanking out front. Especially since HG don’t take a FOC slot you can put an IC in.

I also don’t have a strategy for Ultramarines yet, and my personal leanings are to an Imperial Fist list with a Shrike ally that takes advantage of the IF’s bonuses to devastators and to a lesser extent tacticals. But I do still want to address the “points reduction” which is not a real point reduction per se.

The “points reduction” is really letting marines be versatile. If I want marines in a drop pod for a drop pod army why do I have to either waste points, waste a guy running around with a heavy weapon that will never do more than snap fire, or sit four guys out of the pod so mr. heavy can combat squad in the back lines? Marines used to be “versatile” which meant they could do everything poorly. Now they are more versatile. You can leave out the parts you don’t want. If you’re going to be up in the opponent’s face running around, you can just take 5 man squads and still get your MG without leaving points on the table. Don’t take a 9 ld sergeant when the squad is too small to leverage it or too large or well protected to need it.

So hopefully marines will be more marine-y this codex go around. Versatility and tactical thought will be their strengths. I don’t know if it will be enough, but I’m fairly sure the methods I discuss should be the tools to evaluate them. I look forward to seeing battle reports detailing the use of artillery to break up a turtle into more tactically manageable chunks.

For a first post...that was really impressive!

This is all good stuff, but it sorta hinges on the shooty terminators doing alot of heavy lifting. They only get stormbolters and a heavy weapon, so they don't really do all that much damage, and you are blowing a really expensive character slot to tank for them, which is only going to be effective from one side. With mobile grav and plasma all over the place, I don't really think the shooty termies + tank character bring that much more than just throwin' in the TH/SS termies really, and they don't need anybody to tank for them.

GK terminators can shoot much harder than loyalist terminators for just about the same price, and get to be troops and fearless, and can tank with Draigo (who can add alot more to the rest of the army as well with the Grand Strategy).

Wolf Terminators can take Combi-Weapons and can tank with a SS Saga of the Bear character, or Logan (or Arjac even) and if you're taking Logan you can have some additional utility by making the terminators troops and passing out some special rules to other folks.

I like the TFC's and Ironclads though, I just think that shooty terminators aren't all that great with just 4 stormbolters and 1 heavy weapon.

I'm torn between Iron Hands (Ops Loyalist!) Ironclads and Vulkan based template/melta maddness. Throw into the mix TFC's (just superb) and Stalkers/Hunters/Storm Talons (you need some form of anti-air), which only fit into Iron Warriors

That is a nice post. It could use a bit of focusing and perhaps some titles for ease of reading. Overall good job though.

I agree that the TFC pretty much is an auto take for most marine armies. It isn't just the damage it does or the toughness it brings but it even creates tactics for the SM army that may not work without the abilities it brings.

I feel that locator beacons are fantastic for getting all the great DS units in the dex on target. Legion of the Damned are my personal favorite right now.

Iron hands 6+ FnP is somewhat meaningless but the IWND on the tanking chapter master with EW and 3++ is the real survivability enhancer for non vehicles.

 Kain wrote:
For a first post...that was really impressive!

No doubt!

Great job on that first post.

Thanks for the replies and compliments.

I want to respond to some of the points raised by whitedragon. While other codexes can do the same tanking-shooty-nators strategy, they are limited in the support that they can offer from other units.

Grey Knights can turtle very well, but they don’t have much long range in general and have flat out NO artillery (barrage fire weapons, IIRC). The present meta has Tau as the turtle kings (I blame Splinter, but that’s an aside), and they well out-range Grey Knights at this point. Also, I don’t know what the status of teleport homers is for the GK, but just by virtue of the expense of the average GK, they will have to be less available.

Plus, they’re Fists, so by math hammer they still do 7/9 hits per storm bolter shot, ending up with 7/18 wounds vs T4, GK ends up with 8/18 per shot with psybolt ammo. The difference shrinks to 1/15 at toughness 3 which is more relevant perhaps. I don’t know the point difference off the top of my head, but with Psybolts I think you have to upgrade them a couple points. Do GK get cyclone missiles? I forget. Also, fearless is still worse than ATSKNF.

Space Wolves can pull a similar stunt legitimately, but this evens them out with C:SM. And similarly, a SW has little available to blast a prickly porcupine of 30 30” fire warrior shots (yes Long Fangs, but again, not artillery, cover saves, horde , etc).

Also I was a bit confused until I got to the end and realized you were talking about a five man squad. Two ten man squads at least for a fist list. The point is to take advantage of the one free EW guy and then use Lysander. Two are necessary to sandwich in highly mobile units, and while SW can do this with ease, other armies have more limited EW availability.

The real advantage of the C:SM in these cases is the ability to blend these elite units with masses of now nearly horde costed T4 dudes. The two ten man units with Darnath and Captain Uber run ~1300 pts. That leaves enough to take max troops of scouts (albeit, with only 4 homers) in a 2000 pt list. That’s close to ninety T4 wounds on the table and 30 of those are in AP2. But you need the TFCs of course, but this is starting to digress.

I made an attempt at heading the entries, but I was in a rush so I didn’t highlight. I know it was a little long, but hopefully interesting.

Razerous: I guess you’ll need a newer model either way, but Storm Talons aren’t using one of the IC slots in the Iron Hands list, so probably them. They are a decent vehicle that doesn’t eat a heavy slot; and heavy slots should be in high demand in the Iron Hands list.

Ansacs: Yes, the EW on a FnP IWND chapter master is really huge. I’ve been thinking about that ever since I read it and the cheap HG. HG being tanked by Chapter Master Uber is better than shooty terminators on most accounts, especially since they lose Fistiness for the storm bolter shots in an IH list.

It is debatable whether one would be better off sticking an HG in a drop pod with CM Uber and waiting longer for the second group of terminators to drop or doing both as terminator DS so they arrive more in tandem. Varro ally would tip things towards DS terminators I believe, but that may be neither here nor there.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is that all marines can upgrade the missile launchers to also pack the air to air missiles. 95 points gives you a Crusader squad of 5, with a skyfiring missile launcher.
If you want an objective camper, it's not a bad choice.

What's your thoughts on Fast Attack choices? My collection is pretty loaded on fast attack choices, and I'm the least excited about them.



-Matt

Well, I feel pleased to have my advice sought, it is very flattering and I hope I can live up to it (although perhaps I’m being presumptuous in assuming you’re referring to myself).

I attribute much of my 40k strategic thinking to one player, whose full name I don’t know but whose playstyle may be identifying I suppose, so I’ll leave it anonymous for now. His lessons influenced a lot of my thinking, but one of the first things he like to put into a list is a GIANT pile of DAKKA. And LS with Fistiness have buckets of dakka (although IWND may be valuable especially in squadrons where you can use shenanigans to spread hull damage). The cheapest heavy bolters in the book: two per speeder or 30pts per HB. Cheapest scouts are more than double that and a Dev squad is better but still 50% more costly in terms of points per HB. And you can stuff 9 into a regular force org before allies and still have plenty of room in a 1000pt list. But if you want to try this you’ll probably need all nine, or maybe at least 4, because they go down easy, 36” isn’t the longest range, and your opponent will soon recognize the threat.

If you’re loaded with the new Storm Talons, I wish I had your money (but not your spending habits!). They’re probably the best bet for an anti-air unit, especially as I mention above in lists where your heavy slots are filled with Ironclads (or TFCs). Flakk can be expensive and air is mostly an annoyance with a couple notable exceptions.

But jump pack dudes are the best. I believe, as I mentioned above, they are the longest charge in the game now, and you can take 60 of them. One of the things mentioned in the codex I haven’t seen discussed is the 5pt reduction for storm shields in most units (except Hammernators). Only makes Vanguard Vets better. I honestly wonder how a Decent of Ravens list with sixty jump troops would fair. Even with cheap scouts I think it might be short on artillery and tank cracking. In any case, just Shrike infiltrating with a squad of Vanguard is a great ally for any list (you get an extra TFC slot and troops in general but especially scouts are so cheap you should be running them anyway).

Speaking of RG scouts, I wasn’t sure the TFC gunner was still able to bolster since he is not an IC anymore, but now that I know he can RG is probably the new turtle king. They’ll have 2+ cover save on potentially a huge 36” range 60 man blob (that wounds on 4s, rends, and can allocate their own wounds). IIRC math hammer on a scout sniper shot equates with a marine bolter vs T4 AP3 because rending and poor BS cancel. More elite targets favors snipers and less favors bolters.

Bikes have retained all their good qualities from the previous codex, although admittedly I never paid them much attention for basically what amounts to fluff reasons, although expense was also a deterrent. I don’t like the idea of a futuristic gothic warrior on a motorcycle. While I get that 40k was influenced by heavy metal music which seems to go hand in hand with the motifs of biker culture in many respects, I find it incongruous. My guess is that some high-up at GW sat on a bike one day and decided they were the coolest thing ever (which they may be as I’ve heard it told) so he has to play them in his table top.

They are a strong unit and compete with Eldar for mobility. Truthfully, I am unqualified to discuss them. I know they were winning tournaments even before the new codex dropped their points (another true point drop) and the improvements to overall Marine tactics via improved artillery apply to them as well. Nobody I see regularly in my area played one of the all bike lists and I didn’t expect to see one basically for expense reasons. I’m sure they simply leverage the T5 3+ and the mobility to simply do a similar version of the Marine divide and conquer thing, which is easier with the new artillery.

Other than the straight up buff that the White Scars give bike units, the new codex has again shifted things out of the Fast Attack FOC with making the Storm speeder a dedicated transport for scouts. It is a potent platform for either gunning or assaulting (or possibly both with shotguns) and benefits from the scout point reduction by making its cargo cheaper. It is difficult to say what chapter they most belong in, but I lean towards RG. A White Scar may want to stuff more bikes into the FA slots, but that is only because they filled all the troop slots. RG probably want a lot of jump troops to take advantage of the chapter buff, and they will be running scouts. OTOH the LSS doesn’t benefit from the stealth part. They’re best role may be helping your cheap 5 man grot squads keep up with a boat load of expensive fast moving or down field units (possibly Eldar allies) that you spent your whole army’s points on. And last minute objective seizing with a fast skimmer is never to be underestimated.

Quote For The Emperor?

"Again, the threat of a first turn assault from Shrike as well as the rush of extremly mobile Assault marines (are Ravenguard jump troops the longest expected charge in the game now?) will pressure the opponent to castle up. TFC. "

Ive played Ravenguard for almost a decade now and love Shrike and CC scouts. But under the new rules, weve lost first turn assaults. Infiltrate and Scout say that if you use either rule in deployment you cannot assualt first turn.

SO Shrike can still assault if you go second or get a 12" on ur charge roll. I still run a unit of thunder hammer termies (5 man) just to help me againt toughies of the enemy, but really like the junp pack rules. I run a unit of vanguard with 2 LC and 3 SS+PF and 5 naked marines with a captain with jp and either 2 lc's or relic blade and art armor. I dont use shrile right now since you cant first turn assault anymore and therefore i think he is about 20 pts overcosted.

vanguard are a good choice now. Compare an Assault squad 205 pts for 10 man and vet serg with power fist. A Vanguard squad kited the same way is only 255 pts. so you get 9 extra attacks (only 9 due to vet serg has 2) for 50 pts. Not bad, you can really make them cost too much and give a lot of upgrades, but this frees up fast attack for stormtalons or speeders or whatever else you may need.

but the stormraven holding a tact sqaud and maybe ranged dread is very nice touch for this army if you can drop them on objective and let them just blast some stuff.

I've got loads of assault marines and may have stumbled on to an option to make them work better.
Bulky models do not gain scout. But... characters on foot do. And, as per the scout rule, as long as a model in the unit has scout, the whole unit gets the benefit of scout.

Enter techmarines.
Take Full sized Assault squads and attach a Tech marine. It gives you a pre-game 6" move, and puts the 2+ armor on point. Turn 1, you can break off the tech marine and leave the assault marines to do their thing. With the longer charge and the pre-game move, you might be able to hit combat on the bottom of turn 1. (6"scout + 12" move, 2D6 charge with re-roll).

With the possibility of up to 4 HQ's (2 techs, to 2 normal), you could do the scout rush of up to 4 units (6 with allies).

Then pepper in scouts for objectives, and some pods to bring in the pressure early, along with TFC to punish anyone who clumps up too much.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I've got loads of assault marines and may have stumbled on to an option to make them work better.
Bulky models do not gain scout. But... characters on foot do. And, as per the scout rule, as long as a model in the unit has scout, the whole unit gets the benefit of scout.

Enter techmarines.
Take Full sized Assault squads and attach a Tech marine. It gives you a pre-game 6" move, and puts the 2+ armor on point. Turn 1, you can break off the tech marine and leave the assault marines to do their thing. With the longer charge and the pre-game move, you might be able to hit combat on the bottom of turn 1. (6"scout + 12" move, 2D6 charge with re-roll).

With the possibility of up to 4 HQ's (2 techs, to 2 normal), you could do the scout rush of up to 4 units (6 with allies).

Then pepper in scouts for objectives, and some pods to bring in the pressure early, along with TFC to punish anyone who clumps up too much.

-Matt

This doesn't work. The rule is very clear. I will post it in both threads you proposed this so people are not confused.

Note
that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky
special rules do not benefit from either rule.

Also, the bit about infiltrate and scouters not being able to assault first turn I'm pretty sure refers to game turn, so his, then yours.

BronzeJon wrote:
Also, the bit about infiltrate and scouters not being able to assault first turn I'm pretty sure refers to game turn, so his, then yours.

Nope just the first player turn.

Terminators are horribly inefficient compared to bikes now I think. They cost twice as much and move at half the rate and are only a bit more suvivable.

Can you speak more specifically on a shooty Terminator unit coupled with Lysander? I'm interested in trying something like that. Coupled with TFCs, it's very appealing.

Would vanguard be a good substitute for sternies in a DP list

 Senortaco wrote:
Would vanguard be a good substitute for sternies in a DP list

No, the two units fulfill completely different roles.